New Max speed for W4

[ellenm]

I heard that IWWF just voted to change the max speed for W4 to 32MPH. Is this true? If so, how will it impact L and R Tournaments this fall and next year?

[Horton]

@ellenm

USAWS rules are not the same as IWWF. There is an agenda item to be voted on this winter about adjusting USAWS W4 top speed to 32. If you do not like this idea start making noise NOW!

 

@JeffSurdej Comment?

[JeffSurdej]

Yes very true, IWWF has lowered womens 45-54 slalom speed to 32mph, so we are in our usual dilema, if we don't do the same than W4 skiers can go 34mph until they get to reg/nat and then they can not go 34 , they can but receive no extra buoys for it. So it almost puts in a situation where we have to also lower it to 32mph, of course if IWWF would adopt ZBS it would at least give W4 skiers the choice to stay at 34mph and earn the correct boy count or better yet leave max speed 34mph and would allow W4 skiers who want to go 32mph go that speed and get proper ZBS scoring for it. IWWF needs to adopt ZBS and all this goes away.

[jayski]

@JeffSurdej I would wager that a lot of women would have no issue dropping to 32mph and those that compete internationally would prefer to be consistent with what they will ski on that stage instead of flipping back and forth.

[Horton]

@jayski I would wager the opposite. Most of the skiers I know at the high end of the older age divisions do not like the slow down.

[thager]

Wizz on IWWF. Why do we continually lower our standards?

[jayski]

@Horton hold on...clarify 'older age div' we're in M4...lets not make it sound horrible lol

[sunperch]

As a W4 skier, I oppose W4 lowering max speed to 32 mph. Let the handful of skiers who go to IWWF tournaments use ZBS scoring if they want to ski at 32 mph. The vast majority of us do not ski IWWF tournaments and don't care what the IWWF does.

[Than_Bogan]

At the risk of veering off topic, what is IWWF doing? Is there some ... I don't know ... reason for such a change? From over here in the USA, it feel like they're just trying to be a pain in the ass, but I'm guessing that is not their actual motivation!? (Hopefully...)

[Killer]

Seems counter intuitive to me that boys go from 34 to 36 once they reach young, adulthood then to 34 at age 35 while girls hit 34 as young women an remain there until what seems like forever... Why?

 

The literal handful of women over age 45 who compete at a very high level will still be at that high level at 32mph and maybe it will convince some women to stay in the sport.

 

Edit: there are 60 w4 skiers on the world ranking list,and about 10 getting into 12m. Interesting enough there are only 40 in W3, but that is prime child rearing years.

[sunperch]

@Killer So you are willing to risk alienating the loyal W4 skiers with yet another rule change affecting the division for the pipe dream of "maybe it will convince some women to stay in the sport"? If those women are not dedicated enough to stay in the sport using traditional or ZBS scoring, then it is not likely another rule change will entice them. More likely, in my case, if the max speed is lowered to 32 and over speeding is not allowed at Regionals or Nationals, I will continue to ski Class C tournament @ 34 mph but will skip the 2021 Regionals and Nationals. How does that "grow the sport"?

[BraceMaker]

I sort of agree with @Killer from the perspective that a 35 year old M3 skier is in the same speed bracket as women to 54 is a huge delta. (not that there aren't some fit 54 year old ladies out there, you know who you are)

 

But does that really matter?

 

Two scenarios, are you really that upset if someone in your division goes out and skis at 36mph when you're skiing 34 and out scores you? He's just a better skier.

 

What about if someone were to go out at 41 off 30 mph and get a 100 balls on ZBS? Are you now upset that you fell at 35off 36 and scored lower than a lowly 30mph skier? I think it would be killer to see someone figure out how to get deep into 43 (or 45) at lower speeds. It would change our sport.

 

I think the reality is that the only real fix is for ZBS to be universal across the sport, then let anyone ski any speed up to 36 regardless of age division. Then its tactics and your own personal comfort. In this logic you can also absolutely rank/pool/group skiers in any way you see fit.

 

You can keep age divisions because you're still competing against people in your group - its just some are better skiers than you are.

 

The only real negative I would state is that you might have people pulling injuries trying to ski above their safe speed. To which - people need to be responsible for staying within their skill.

 

The other thing, wouldn't this open up the venue for companies to think outside of the box in ski design? You have a whole segment of untapped market for skiers to advance into shorter lines at slower speeds.

 

 

[Not_The_Pug]

My wife is W3, she decided last year that she doesn't like 34mph, so she stays at 32mph and just shortens the line with ZBS. As Jeff said IWWF should adopt ZBS so people have a choice. We need to do things to give people choices to keep them in the sport. If my wife had to continue to ski 34mph, she would probably just quit tournaments. She doesn't care about Regionals/Nationals or world events, she is happy going to local events and having fun.

[Killer]

@sunperch I'm not doing anything other than attempting at putting things in perspective. I have spoken to some Int'l W4 athletes about this, the membership voted and it makes a lot of sense due to the fact you currently can have an 18 year old young woman skiing the same speed as a 45-54 year older woman. If we lose 1 skier but gain 2+ that is an overall benefit to the sport. Based on your member ID you are not a WRL skier?

 

I do agree that ZBS scoring could be beneficial, and can be utilized in the USA, I believe you should still be able to ski at 34 if you chose, without credit. In Canadian rules you can age down to ski at a faster speed if you'd like, but you are competing with younger athletes. Almost nobody takes advantage of this, but there are not that many competitive skiers.

 

I don't see how the elite at the top of the W4 ranking list will be alienated, this is making it easier. There are maybe 2 skiers that win every event already, they will continue to win at 32mph, 1 is aging out anyways. They will also pick up a few buoys.

 

You will never make everyone happy; the goal should be to grow the sport and for the majority, not the few. With only 60 skiers on the W4 WRL, and only about 1/2 even running 14m, there's a lot of room for improvement.

 

[sunperch]

@Not_The_Pug excellent! I'm glad to hear your wife a skiing. Sounds like ZBS scoring is working for her. Again, no new rule change for AWSA needed! The proposed rule change will affect those who ski ELR tournaments where overspeeding is not allowed.

[andjules]

@sunperch @Horton can you help me understand a little better? I think when most of us men hit our late 30s/early 40s, we're pretty excited to drop to 34mph (with a few exceptions, and generally speaking, the exceptions = very, very hyper-fit/hyper-competitive athletes). At the lower speed, we usually get to shorter line lengths (than we could at 36mph) and most of us find that challenge more fun.

And I'm comfortable admitting that I'm no longer the athlete I was at 16, and the lower speed = a marginal-and-welcome drop in intensity.

 

So I'm genuinely curious why this wouldn't be a welcome change for most?

Wouldn't an older skier prefer, for example, working on -35 @ 32mph vs working on -32 @ 34?

[Than_Bogan]

@andjules I can't think of anyone who turned 35 and wanted to go to 34.

 

Now that I'm sneaking up on 50, and simply can't react as quickly, I think 36 would probably be too fast for me. But at 35 years old, I was really just figuring 36 out.

[igkya]

In the age of equality, shouldn't women ski the same speed as men?

[Horton]

THE QUESTION should be do these women want to ski 32 or 34. Nothing else matters.

[andjules]

@Than_Bogan I suppose my personal experience is different (but not wildly unusual): I got busy with career (and then parenting) and dropped out of course-skiing by my mid/late 20s. My fitness level dropped. As my son got older and I hit my late-30s, I got more opportunity to get back on the water and see what I could do. I was pleased-as-punch to cut the line @ 34mph.

[BraceMaker]

@igkya they should ski the speed they want to ski up to the maximum speed that we feel the boats should be going. Which 36 is fine for a top.

 

@andjules Has anyone looked at the data in terms of total ball scores for people transitioning down a speed? Just relatively speaking I've pulled up a few skiers and went back from their age to when they transitioned to a slower speed and in general it looked like most people lost a couple of balls which implies they pick up less than a pass at the next lower speed. Which in general means that compared to other people they ski with that it might be a disadvantage "competitively".

 

Obviously ignoring the age grouping which I don't think most people think about the age of those they ski with that much.

[Jody_Seal]

I know of a number of w4 that had to go back to 55k after skiing at 52k for what was their 1st year w5.

I also know of a number of w4 that was utilizing ZBS scoring after the age group change.

I dont think that changing the speed is a bad thing for w4 but what is though is that a skier in any age division utilizing ZBS is being penalized if they want to ski faster and not given the extra bouys for doing so, now this only pertains to class L&R as class C&E it is allowable.

ZBS skiing has brought a few skiers back into the sport and encouraged skiers who have been sitting on the sidelines to participate.

Change the speed if that will encourage participation.

 

 

 

"Some of the forest is visible!"

 

[lpskier]

The definitive answer is that the new IWWF rule reducing the shortening speed for W4 to 52k goes into effect on November 8. So if you are W4 and you want to ski 55k after that date, your options are: 1) ski in Open; 2) ski MW; 3) ski C and E tournaments (excluding Regionals and Nationals) at 55k using the ZBS rules. Whether you like the change or not, if you ski L/R you will have to ski 52k in W4.

[RAWSki]

This pass season I have seen ZBS help a lot of skiers and I agree AWSA W4 skiers could and should utilize it if they want.

However I have never been given a good explanation of why women in their 40s--50's are skiing at the same speed as the Open-Pro women. While the men are 2mph less? Does it make sense or is it "just the way it is".

[aupatking]

Let W4 participants decide. Maybe include W3, as they’ll be there soon but I agree with @Horton, the better skiers do not like to slow down. @JeffSurdej does USAWS not have enough clout with IWWF to push for ZBS scoring? Seems like we have enough membership to matter. I’m a fan of ZBS. I’ve personally seen it keep new skiers going to tournaments

[ski6jones]

Based on the arbitrary 2 mph=6 bouys I don't like crediting buoys over max division speed as it puts those skiing at division max and below at a disadvantage. Based on @JackQ comment above seems like 2 mph=2-4 buoys in reality. So skiing division max speed really should be an advantage from a scoring perspective. If you want to go slower then that's fine, or faster with no extra credit.

[MISkier]

I think the 6 buoy score separation is just fine. That gives the incentive to select the faster speed. It becomes part of the strategy and each skier can determine the speed that rewards them with their optimal score. If a skier doesn’t want to select that speed or is unable to ski a certain speed, it becomes a separator in skill and/or physical ability. In any case, the skier able to achieve the highest score prevails.

 

This will always cause consternation with age-based divisions.

 

It is interesting to see some state their displeasure with being forced to slow down while simultaneously advocate to restrict someone else from going faster.

[JackQ]

I believe it should be a level playing field, everyone slows down or the don’t. I we must have the option? Of skiing above the max speed (the statement is counter diction in terms in of it self) then pick a handicap that is based on reality. Not just because Usawater ski was to lazy to take a few hours and look at the data. I would suggest the data indicated 4 boys in close, and the onus should be on those who choose to go above the supposed max speed.

[eleeski]

Speed involves more energy. Slowing down will protect an athlete from injuries and might extend their time skiing. As an aging athlete whose body is falling apart, I certainly agree with that rationalization.

 

People's bodies age differently. I am taking advantage of ZBS to ski slower. Whether I recover enough to ski full speed is a question. But I doubt that 36 would ever be safe for me or most in my age group - so allowing ZBS overspeed will put me at a serious disadvantage. Or risk if I try to ski there.

 

Few skiers see a 6 buoy jump in scores by slowing down. Maybe you improve a couple. So you really are net losing a lot. No wonder skiers don't want to slow down. But it is rare at the older end of the age division to see someone skiing faster.

 

Women might age better than men so age division speeds don't necessarily have to match by gender.

 

Not long ago, IWWF speeds were faster than AWSA speeds for women. This caused lots of problems for our women. ZBS is partially a response to this issue. Perhaps the current IWWF rule is a response as well.

 

It is really hard to vary your top speed. Rules should be written to minimize the incentive to do that. Overspeed buoys are worth 50% for the last 6 buoys scored?

 

Eric

[JeffSurdej]

@aupatking , Now that ZBS has succeeded in the states I think we have a good chance to get IWWF behind it. When it first came out half of AWSA hated it, now its been one of the most used rule changes in recent years, So maybe IWWF will adopt. They could always put stipulations on world events if they want but we need to be able to do ZBS in L events and it count, you can do them now in L events BTW, but when your scores go to IWWF they just will count as 15 off.

[Horton]

@JeffSurdej considering the percent of the membership that skis internationally I don't understand why we wouldn't make changes that impact the entire membership.

[JeffSurdej]

@Horton need more details? not sure what side of what rule you are on, a very small % ski internationally, this is the problem, IWWF keeps making changes for IWWF skiers, and for most countries everyone skis L so it's not a big deal but for US, we are 75% class C so these rule changes always effect us, but they mainly effect us at reg/nat. I think we could solve all this by making our nationals class E or C. Most skiers ski reg/nat to ski reg/nat, not b/cits an L, i.e a lot of skiers are forced into L at reg/nat, they dont want it or care about world rankings, so when we run our reg/nat under L we then force a large % of our membership into a rule set they dont care about,

[MISkier]

Some local tournament observations this season.

 

A 62 year old selected 36 mph and achieved essentially the same score at 36/-35 as he typically does at 34/-38.

 

A 67 year old opted up to 34 mph and recorded his best score of the day (while below what he usually achieves at 32 mph).

 

A 56 year old chose to shorten at 32 mph rather than ski 34 mph and was elated to run a line length at 32 mph that he would not at 34. In fact, ZBS is likely what brought him back to a tournament after years away.

 

A 53 year old selected 36 mph and essentially equaled his ranking score, based on average of scores computed at 34 mph.

 

I think all of these skiers were satisfied with having their respective options and receiving the commensurate full credit score for those. It didn’t seem like any of them risked injury unnecessarily.

[JackQ]

I have no problem skiing at 34, but 36 is too much for this old dog. In my “new” age division I feel wrongly or not, that I have more of an advantage of my peers at 34 vice 32, as I am in better condition than most, and more aggressive than most. I would certainly have a higher buoy count by a couple, but since for L and R and international competition, I need to ski at 32mph.

 

However, I am not advocating change the max speed as though I am the youngest in my new division, that will change over time and when I am 67 or 68 vice 65, 34mph may be too much for me.. With that all being said under, no circumstances should usawaterski be permitted to change any divisions max speed during a ski year, as they have recently done and about to do again. Any changes should be announced in advance and effective after the Nationals for the following ski year.

[BraceMaker]

@eleeski every athlete has to make decisions about what is or isn't worth it to them in the sport.

 

If inside an age range some people are skiing 32 and some are skiing 36 they are scoring differently, and if you call their 36mph as 34mph scores the risks remain the same so all we've managed to do is ding them their points. For that reason I don't necessarily see how not allowing people to select their speed matters.

 

Just trying to say if someone else elects to opt up to 36 mph and fell at 32 off and you ski ZBS and got further into 38 they get their score dinged down to 34 because its over division speed and your score is higher. Did you win or did they win?

[aupatking]

@JackQ you have an advantage over your peers because you’re a badass.

[eleeski]

@BraceMaker My specialty is trick skiing which is an absolutely level game across age divisions and gender. It works well. So l do agree with you on a basic level.

 

Slalom has always had age and gender changes in speed. The rationalization has been to protect the skiers. I understand the health consequences of slalom speed (unfortunately too well). So do we do away with the historical reasoning and focus on speed? Without some penalty, the speed for anyone who wants to win is the gender maximum speed - regardless of age.

 

The sport is incredibly successful at retaining older athletes. Raising the speed is a pretty serious change which works against the health (and scores) of older skiers. ZBS overspeed is de facto raising the speed for all skiers.

 

The IWWF constraint (and the related Nationals and Regionals speeds) keeps age division skiers skiing at the specified speed. So we aren't seeing much ZBS overspeed.

 

Actually I have yet to see even one skier use a ZBS overspeed (I often judge L or college tournaments where there is less incentive to overspeed). I don't believe I've worked a shift without seeing a ZBS underspeed. My experience is that skiers prefer running slower speeds. Shortline is way more fun than blasting into the concrete hard water of a faster speed. Just my observation.

 

I'm looking forward to my age division slowing down. Even if the winners in the division speed up.

 

Eric

[bsmith]

@BraceMaker By all accounts we are seeing that 2 mph does not equal six buoys. The benefit bias is towards skiing the highest speed allowed. For a given level of talent, the average skier will have a higher ZBS score when they do their best at the highest speed allowed.

 

If all divisions were allowed to opt up to 36 mph and have their ZBS score counted at that speed, many older competitors would feel forced to take extra risks at these higher speeds in order to maximize their chances of winning and that is not a good thing. I think every division should have its own age/gender related top speed, and if any competitor wants to ski faster than that, they can, but only receive points as if they skied the top speed allowed in their division.

 

I think the current ZBS system is working well in that the fairly small penalty for skiing slower than your division's allowed top speed has encouraged many skiers to keep competing even though they are at a disadvantage to their competitors who comfortably ski at their division's allowed top speed.

[BraceMaker]

@eleeski definitely - there will always be someone competitive enough to go out and try to win. However my feel has been that the divisional speed is more of a hold over from when you HAD to run full speed to score.

 

@bsmith get that. But what other sport specifically has a tiered scoring system that would prohibit a person from achieving the same score as a person 1 year their junior?

[bsmith]

@BraceMaker the situation you describe should be addressed by allowing older competitors to compete in younger divisions. And such individuals also have the option of competing in the open division. Unfortunately, the slalom ZBS scoring system cannot ever be made perfectly balanced and universal across all divisions and maximum speed settings, so comparing ZBS scores across divisions is not really appropriate in my opinion.

[sailworks]

Following this discussion with interest - from perspective of orthopedic surgeon who is older but still loves to ski and continue efforts to improve performance / scores. From my perspective ZBS has great merit in allowing an individual the option of focusing improvement by shortening at speed below divisional max speed. But I think with regard to "max division speed" questions- the "powers that be" should consider what I am acutely aware of as an arthropod - namely that energy dissipated in a crash correlates with velocity squared, and (IMHO) the risk of injury is significantly increased (for everyone - but especially those with aging bods) with each 2mph increment. ZBS without upper speed limit will strongly encourage some subset of competitors to ski at intrinsically dangerous speed for their age. Yes, it's individual decision, but I would think those that make these decisions would want to be sure they aren't fostering dangerous options / decisions for aging athletes. I'm assuming that original decisions about division speed limits were driven by safety considerations??

[walleye]

I thought this thread was about W4 not mens divisions.

[MISkier]

@walleye is right. We should probably move a lot of this discussion to a new thread, or add to the old one (all 14 pages of it):

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/17096/zero-based-scoring

 

I'll sum up what I learned here, though.

 

1. Don't make me slow down, if I don't want to.

2. Don't let others ski faster than me.

3. If you do let others ski faster than me, they should not receive the score they would have achieved if they were skiing that speed in the age division where it was the traditonal max speed.

4. Everybody is going to kill themselves trying to ski at warp speed.

[Jody_Seal]

@MISkier

Nailed it! Might as well include making everyone wear helmets and include handle guards. We all need a protective capsule around us

 

Yea I would not want to get beat by a older skier going faster then me anyway....??

Crybabies? Wait! Did I say that??

 

[Marco]

@Jody_Seal nothing against your opinion, but a handle guard would have saved many of my friends serious injuries, and a mentor death. But I get your point. I spent my youth snow skiing high speed fall line through tight trees, and never wore a helmet. Still dont wear one. Wont ever slalom ski without a handle guard though.

[Drago]

I don't feel qualified to address this particular issue because I'm a 56 year old guy.

[Jody_Seal]

@Marco for the record I use a handle guard also..

My point is to many people try to institute rules and policy that is not what is in the best interests of all involved in this sport.

 

I want a 1/2 meter extension for handle cause I am vertically challenged..

[thager]

I want trophy's for everyone!

[sunperch]

@thager @MISkier @Jody_Seal hahaha, I agree! 2 years ago we changed W4 to align with IWWF and increased our age division from 52 to 55 yrs. old. Now we're looking changing max speed in same division to follow IWWF again. Now kids divisions have changed. Seems like the tail wagging the dog. Why don't we stop with all the rules changes and let ZBS make those who want to ski differently than traditional speed/line length happy? Most of the rules changes appear to be to appease the less dedicated skier at risk of alienating loyal AWSA members.

[T-fromTO]

Very few people commenting in this thread are W4 skiers. I am a 54 year old female and it is amazing to me that I would be expected to ski at the same speed as a 35 year old male. Let that sink in!

 

All this talk about "Suck it up" "Oh, you're not a dedicated skier if you want to ski at what is actually an appropriate speed for your age." I for one am overjoyed that the speed has dropped to 32 for me.