How old is too old for a ski?

[Dirt]

I ask this question because I have three Mapple T2 skis. The one I like the most has four full ski seasons on it.

I have not liked anything I have tried more than my current ski. I am interested in the New Denali but probably won’t ski enough this year to justify it.

I can think of a few great skiers that rode their old skis for years. Simon Hill on the Shadow. Scott Larson on the X5.

[thager]

@Dirt Seriously? You haven't stolen a ski from @Horton in 4 years? Time to man up!

[The_MS]

I would pull out the A2

[Stevie Boy]

My opinions have changed, I used to update my ski regularly, but since I have stuck with the one ski, I have improved, if the ski still feels good and you have time in the course, it's good enough, it's also got to come down to how many times you ski, line length, boat speed and maybe even the way you ski, as to how long the ski is good for, I know good skiers that are on fairly old skis that perform very well, for me it's finding the ski that feels right for you and the way you ski.

Recently I was talking to somebody who happened to be skiing where Rossi was, he was given the opportunity to ride the very same ski that Rossi was on and had setup, Rossi was somewhat dismayed, when he was unable to turn the ski and get it to work for him.

So what is right for one is not necessary right for another, which in someways is fantastic as it means we are all individuals with our own style and techniques.

[thager]

Jeff Rogers was skiing on something out of the 80's recently. One of our local deep short liners was still on a Fisher a few years ago. If it ain't broken don't fix it!

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Ski lifespan can vary greatly. I’ve found that when a ski starts “breaking down” my consistency goes to crap. One day will be skiing great and the next falling early for no apparent reason. If the ski seems to still work and you like it, keep it.

[Jordan]

Years ago I had Lapoint O'Brien that seemingly died over night. It went from skiing great to dumping me constantly. Yes, I checked fin etc. Most of the time the skis just change gradually and it's really not noticeable until you get on a new ski.

[Dirt]

I don’t feel like anything is wrong with my ski I have just been wondering if I would ski better or more consistently on a new one.

[thager]

Take a trip to BOS headquarters and try some skis.

[Dirt]

@thager for some reason Horton says I am not welcome there and he won’t let me near his skis. He is selfish.

[lpskier]

There is a market for reasonably fresh T2’s.

 

If you like the T2 you may really like the new Lapoint LP1.

[Horton]

@Dirt I think 15+ years ago you could ride a ski longer. By current standards they were basically dead to start with so they could only get so much worse.

 

An all carbon & PVC core ski is likely not going to ski like new after 200 + rides. The fact that you ski like a school girl means you can get a more out of it but there is a practical limit.

[Rednucleus]

Mechanically, what changes in today's skis to make them ski differently?

[Horton]

@Rednucleus epoxy microfractures, bond degradation between carbon skins and the core, degradation of the core...

[CPC_1]

Wait— skis have shelf lives? I love this forum...helping me get a new boat and a new ski!!! Let’s go!

[wawaskr]

(popcorn eating emoji)....waiting for some real facts.....

[thager]

@Horton "By current standards they were basically dead to start with..." Wow! That should get you some advertising!!!!1 :p

 

[JackQ]

I have no scientific data to prove my anecdotal evidence, but I think usage is much larger factor than age. A one year old ski with a 100+ passes at 39 off with a 195 pound skier is much closer to death than a 8 year ski, that has been used a dozen time a year at 15’ off with a 160 of skier.

 

[eleeski]

The only mechanical tests of aging skis that I've seen and done have indicated that skis test out as stiffer as they age. Whether that is the resin just aging stiffer or work hardening is unclear. Regardless, it is a small measured difference and not a real breakdown of the skis.

 

Old polyurethane cores did break down with stress cycles. This made them softer and more prone to breakage. Clark foam was the major supplier and went out of business (abruptly) about 20 years ago. Most of the modern cores are not polyurethane and hold up quite well with respect to both loads and age.

 

Skis can get damaged and have properties change. Usually the damage is obvious or clear. Sometimes the durability will be OK but properties change (tough to recreate if you like it after the damage).

 

Heat can be a problem. Like direct sunlight on a black ski that will get to 175f (we measured that!) and definitely soften resins allowing the ski to change from how it was molded. Which will change the feel of a ski. Of course, that kind of heat might delaminate the ski and obviously ruin the ski. Keep your skis out of the sun!

 

Skis do get stale. You get too used to them and and your style is stifled. A new ski will expose you to different traits that challenge your skills - and improve your skiing. Do keep that old ski - it might respond well to your new skills!

 

Eric

 

On second thought, those old skis are shot. Send them to me for proper disposal.

[Horton]

let me clarify because I think I'm reading some confusion in the thread... a ski that has been sitting in your garage for years might change a tiny bit but not much. A ski that has been ridden hard for hundreds of rides is likely not the same as it was the day you got it.

[eleeski]

@Horton The skis I tested were ones I thought were "dead" and well used. Hence the reference to work hardening. Riding a "dead" ski a couple years later gave good performance. It was me, not the ski.

 

Of course, I have broken or damaged many skis and their performance was degraded. Not all damage is visible. Honeycomb skis got waterlogged and corroded. Polyurethane cores powdered. Bubbles formed on the skis. Delamination occurred. (Sometimes this happened on my skis and sometimes on factory skis.) Skis and materials have improved with time and are now quite robust.

 

New skis are important for improving your skills more than accounting for age.

 

Eric

[BCM]

A few years ago I was skiing on an old 'dead' ski, transitioned to something else, felt great. Last fall I was struggling a bit and pulled out the old dead horse. Last fall and this winter I have skied the best I have in years. Maybe that ski is broken down, maybe it isn't, I have no data to support either claim. But, I can compare this winters practice sets to last winter and this winter is going better (on the 12 year old ski). In this case, I believe the dead ski was in my head.

 

I would love to see actual data on ski degradation. Do they degrade linearly (e.g. 1% loss of stiffness per set from set 1 to set 100) or is it some kind of curve with an initial 'off the lot' decrease then flat for a few hundred sets then catastrophic failure? Do different manufacturing techniques and materials degrade differently?

[brettmainer]

I didn’t know @Dirt still skied. I thought he quit a few years ago after posting a worse score than Horton at the Wet Set Regionals.

[Horton]

@brettmainer you mean the year that he missed his opener?

[brettmainer]

Horton, don’t make it sound so bad. He almost came close to running it. The deep water start and the body position going around the island all looked pretty good.

[EricKelley]

Several years ago for kicks I flex tested a decade plus old Goode 9800 with the same flex tester at the exact points and same flex tester. It flexed essentially the same as it did when new. I think the all carbons likely stay the same......until they break.

[Dirt]

I skied on the T2 the last four days. It feels really good. I spent a couple years on a Goode and a HO A2 I borrowed from Horton. I would ride the HO during the week and switch to the Goode on Friday and tournaments because it was more forgiving.

[Horton]

@EricKelley occasionally you will find a ski that lasts hundreds of rides. Most skis will flex about the same on a static flex tester but will be diminished in terms of dynamic flex after 150+/- rides. No composite piece of sporting good equipment lasts forever.

[chrislandy]

It's 100% down to the inherent ski design i.e. layup, materials and cure cycle.

 

All materials have a design life until fatigue failure, carbon composites should have a predictable lifecycle.

 

A layup with large strain differences (large delta of inter lamina strain) will fail quite quickly and delam with quite small cyclic deflections, or where the strain is too great in the core. A layup with a stepped inter lamina strain will last longer and perform more predictably with a longer design fatigue life.

 

Cheap resin will micro/macro fracture earlier and be less predictable and degrade quicker if not properly UV protected.

 

As already mentioned, overheating by leaving the ski in the sun is a sure fire way of screwing the ski. If the Tg (Glass transition temp) of the resin is 60degC (140F) and it hits 80degC (175F) then the ski will be pretty much bin fodder. If the cure cycle and final Tg is 120degC (250F) then while it will reduce the lifespan a bit, it won't effect the mechancial properties much, if at all.

[EricKelley]

@horton completely agree that no ski lasts forever but I do think the pure carbon fiber skis(which are not composites) will outperform the resin infused carbon weaves. They are superior except fragility. Good point about dynamic reflex.

[Horton]

@EricKelley carbon fiber / epoxy is not a composite?

[eleeski]

A waterski goes through 6 cycles per pass. Six passes per set. Three passes per day. Five month season. 6x6x3x150. 16,000 cycles per year. 80,000 cycles in a normal 5 year lifespan of a ski.

 

Cycle times to failure are measured in MILLIONS of cycles in engineering analysis.

 

Cheap polyethylene hinges may be rated in hundreds of cycles but solid structural critical parts are designed for lots of cycles. A waterski in normal tournament training is nowhere near any cycle limits.

 

Your ski will last longer than you will.

 

A new ski has tested improvements. Get a new ski to improve your buoy count - not because something has ruined your old one.

 

Eric

[chrislandy]

@EricKelley are you talking nanotube carbon? As far as I am aware, it still has a matrix, whether it is epoxy, ceramic, metal etc. therefore they are still composites.

 

The whole idea of a composite is two or more materials combined to form something else with preferably better properties. Carbon Fibre in any form is rubbish in compression on it's own and requires a matrix to stabilise it.

 

If I'm wrong, please let me know and send a link as I've been out of following the advances in tech for a few years since I did my masters degree in advanced composites, so things have likely changed a lot at the high end - that's not supposed to sound bad, just want to know if things have changed

[Horton]

@eleeski now that you have Infinite Pandas I am defenseless to your disinformation.

[eleeski]

This is exactly the problem with social media. @Horton has an agenda. (When he claims that skis "breakdown" his ski selling advertisers get business selling replacement skis?)

 

When a plastics engineer, ski designer, builder and tournament competitor disagrees with his agenda, he gets ridiculed, abused and muzzled.

 

If there is only one view, reality gets skewed.

 

(Are we to believe that composites in other industries behave differently than ski manufacturers? This is disinformation?)

 

This post might be deleted. I'm prevented from not only commenting but even seeing posts in the Rules and Techniques forums. Potential conflicting views must be prevented?

 

I've known John for a long time and would consider him a friend. I am upset by being bullied as a part of what seems to be manipulation of opinion for his site.

 

I apologize for a public rant here. But infinite pandas might be funny for a while but it's getting very old and abusive. I will stand up for myself, my accomplishments, my opinions and my integrity.

 

Eric

[Horton]

@eleeski nope just an experienced skier who hates disinformation.

 

Can't we just get together, drink beer and trick?

[eleeski]

@Horton Sure. Restore my access to the forums, get rid of the infinite pandas tag line and be open minded about posts (from me or anyone else) that are not in agreement with you and I'll buy the beer. I might even slalom if my old ski isn't too floppy.

 

Eric

[MuskokaKy]

@eleeski you're awesome! Many of us who haven't even met you think you're great! and I always refer to you as out go to Trick guru! You were always super helpful and willing to share your knowledge and answer any questions I PM'd you. So from all us non bullies, Thanks for being you bud! I would love to come down and learn some tricking skills from you.

 

Keep posting!

 

[wawaskr]

@eleeski agreed. These discussion without actual data are ridiculous... Had the best season for PBs last year on my 6th season ski...how the hell does that happen?? :D

[eleeski]

Thanks guys for the support. There are a lot of good people here. In our little warm spell in the desert, I got to ski with @vic @jriester33 @MichaelWiebe . Fun times with the people who contacted me through this site.

 

I probably should have contacted @Horton privately but I was rather upset. Things have been smoldering for a while between myself and John. But I still tried to have fun and be helpful. Having my integrity questioned (disinformation?) was too wrong.

 

Back to the focus of the thread. As long as the ski is working for you, ride it! Maybe get a backup in case you drive over your special ski (or if @Dirt borrows it). Eventually a new ski will improve your skiing. Or make you appreciate your old one.

 

Eric

[Horton]

Skis die. It is known. At the top of the sport this is accepted as fact. How fast a ski breaks down is undefinable because every skier stresses a ski differently and every factory does things a little differently. Deep water starts might stress a ski more than a wake crossing for some skiers.

 

There are stories of skis that lasted for many seasons but these stories are anecdotal. Maybe a lot of skis last longer than I expect but I am sure many do not.

 

Eddie Roberts told me the story more than once about skiers who got a fresh ski that was exactly the same as their year old ski and demanded to know what had changed with the design. The new ski was exactly the same spec but was simply fresh.

 

Since skis generally die slowly the skier often has no idea it is happening. It is the whole frog in the water story.

[Zman]

It is getting tough to determine which part of this thread is blinding us with brilliance, or baffling us with bullcrap.

Summer can't come soon enough.

[BCM]

.

 

[tap]

Brilliance is a strong word. I'm thinking it's a healthy dose of meaningful experience, on multiple fronts, with a dash of bullcrap mixed in. There are too many variables at play and not enough data to make a meaningful prediction on a ski by ski basis. So.. we're left with anecdotal information and comparisons to other industries that actually have meaningful data. For anyone with enough curiosity and time on their hands I suggest reading up on S-N curves and fatigue driven stiffness degradation for carbon/epoxy composites. The executive summary goes something like this... yes composites degrade with fatigue loading, but (and it's a big but) it depends highly on the magnitude of the cyclic stress or strain. To that point, most well made higher end composite materials do have an infinite fatigue life threshold, meaning if the stress is small enough it will last forever, in theory. The fact that people break skis more often than companies would like to admit suggests the loads are high enough to at least warrant the conversation. I think the only certainty is that the harder you are on a ski, and the more you ski, the sooner it will break down. Time itself is not so much a factor, you'll want to replace a ski purely due to improvements in technology long before it ages itself to death.

 

So long as nothing catastrophic occurs, fatigue degradation is pretty much only going to soften a ski. (If your ski got stiffer then most likely it wasn't fully cured when it shipped from the factory and a summer in the sun finished it off). Is a slightly softer ski necessarily a bad thing? You probably change the flex characteristics more by screwing around with different binding plates. I would bet for a 'typical use' ski, there is more variability from one ski to the next coming straight out of the factory than how much one ski changes in a year. I'm not saying don't go buy a new ski, I'm just saying there are far more interesting reasons to buy a new ski than concern over fatigue damage.

 

Time to make up some numbers... let's assume a top level pro gets a full season out of a ski. They ski ~5 sets a week at 10 passes each (I have no idea, just trying to stay conservative) and they live in Florida so they ski all year long. That's 2,600 passes. For me, I am lucky to ski 1 set a week, on average, so that's 520 passes. So... I should expect to easily get 5 years out of my ski. Not to mention, I'm not slamming turns at 39off every set out and I've never broken a ski, so my cyclic loading magnitude is probably only 50% - 70% of the 'pro' level, which means I can probably get a good 6 - 7 years out of my ski without any meaningful concern of fatigue damage. I'll want to replace it long before then... or modify it. I suffer from not being able to leave well enough alone.

[tap]

One point I do disagree with... the concept that 'dynamic flex' is some sort of mystical property that can't be understood falls short. The way a ski flexes under a static load versus under a dynamic load are not independent characteristics. The static stiffness absolutely drives the dynamic stiffness. Unless you are adding our removing significant mass, or if some more complex material property is radically changing, i.e. hysteresis or viscoelastic property, then your dynamic stiffness is very much driven by your static stiffness. The terms 'dynamic flex' or 'dynamic rebound' unfortunately are just close enough to the fringe of common knowledge that they get used, and more commonly misused, for marketing hype more so than real mechanical understanding. It's fun to talk about, even more fun to measure, but I'd argue almost meaningless for any real practical value... at least in comparison to all of the other physical characteristics a ski has. If your ski makes it through a stiff legged offside turn without folding like a banana then you're 'dynamic flex' is probably good to go.

[Zman]

@tap Do you know @Than_Bogan ?

Related? Is 420 legal where you live?

Just having fun. You obviously know stuff most of us don't understand. And, I'm a mechanical engineer, or used to be. :D

S-N diagrams are a distant memory.

 

[aupatking]

So, to interrupt the current arguments, I’ve always hesitated to buy a ski on SIA when I see the name of the seller is one of the Dailand brothers or someone else I know has worked that thing over at 39 off, or more. My sweet spot for buying used skis is, suck bad enough to not run 32 off (me), but good enough to not handle pop the ski. :D

[vic]

Here is something of note all ski's this day are made by mixing a resine and a harder which set. The Reaction does not stop simply slows down a lot after material sets up. So the material properties continue to change and therefore the ski behave differently overtime (very very slightly) put someone skiing to the edge of its design will notice the difference should they compare it to a fresh ski. So a dumb ass slow skier like me would not notice this. Put some one skiing at a 34-36 and 34 off would feel it immediately. So unless someone can change the properties of the material ski's are made of they do change or wear out over time.

 

[Rednucleus]

@vic an interesting test would be to take a new ski, lab test it, put it back in the box and test it every 6 months to document changes.

[TEL]

@Rednucleus I have been skiing on a 2018 D3 NRG I just bought a new 2018 NRG from D3 I have only pulled it out of the box to set the Fin to the one i am using. I will try it this weekend to see if it skis any different.