The Promo Boat Paradigm has to change

[Golfguy]

The take away from this conversation, in summary, is that the boat owner should be paid a per hour compensatory rate ($50/hr) for use in a tournament. I'm going to run with that Idea in my 2021 tournaments. Notice I am going to stop using the word promo.

 

[skierjp]

@BlueSki what state do live in?

[Golfguy]

Arizona

 

[BlueSki]

Ohio

[unksskis]

As @bishop8950 put very well, it's great to have club or private boats used in our local tournaments, but that limits the open-ness of the tournament to anyone outside of the club/property owners. Our tournaments will only "fill up" faster, and overall numbers reduced to keep personal boat hours and liability down.

 

As a jumper, I think we're even higher maintenance when it comes to boats at tournaments. Engine size, ZeroOff Rev, dual puck vs single, etc all factor into desire, interest, and comfort level of attending a tournament. The lack of promos and shift to personal boats at tournaments will continue the hinderance of jump access and growth.

[rico]

I agree with @RichardDoane The reality is that most people organising tournaments are doing it for the love of the sport and community. I helped at tournaments in Florida and California over the past 10 years. 99% of the LOC are not doing it for the money or for breaking even. I put up a tournament at our lake this year and there is no profit, a lot of work, some stress but a lot of fun with friends and other skiers.

Sorry to be blunt but the reality is promo boat owners also use their promo boat to ski all year long and It's not just a service to the tournament community. There are less and less promo people and a lot of people that would like to do promo and have no spots. The problem is not with not having people wanting to do promo but not enough boats available for promo teams.

I am happy to pay more as long as the system is the same for all tournaments (hourly rate for boat use and rate per miles for towing to a tournament), but it is a vicious circle of offer and demand. LOC need skiers, skier need boats and officials, skiers need LOC to put up tournaments...

[dave2ball]

Rico say it best. It seems like the MFG’s feel they are not enough return on the invest put into 3 event skiing.

[Horton]

@dave2ball let's be honest and play it straight. There is not very much return on investment providing boats to the competitive tournament world. It is even more evident at this moment because boats from all three brands are more or less sold out. If the factories can't make them fast enough why would they discount them?

[dave2ball]

@Horton now a days i don’t disagree with you. They are doing the bare minimum to reach the 20% required by AWSA for required for national qualification

[Jody_Seal]

USA Water Ski Approved Tournament Towboats Year(s) Approved Boat CompanyModelYear(s) Approved Boat Company Model85-89 American Skier Advance90-93 American Skier Legend94-97 American Skier TBX00-04 American Skier TBX Pro84, 90American Skier Volante83-85 American Skier87 Baha Ski Sport94-95 Bimini Boats Bimini Skier/Skier 93-94 Brendella Barefooter97 Brendella Calabria93-95 Brendella Pro Comp90-94 Brendella Shortline Comp88-89 Brendella Ski Brendella93 Brendella Sport Comp 90-91 Brendella Super Comp88 Centurion Outboard11-18 Centurion Carbon Pro 86 93-94 Cheyenne Boats 20' Elite89-91 Cheyenne BoatsCheyenne98-99 Cobalt 20303-08 Correct Craft 19603-08 Correct Craft 20605-08 Correct Craft SV 211 03-04 Correct Craft 21688-92 Correct Craft Barefoot Nautique78-02 , 19-20 Correct Craft Ski Nautique93-94 Correct Craft Ski Nautique 1:192,94-95 ,98-00 Correct Craft Ski Naut. Open Bow88 Correct Craft Ski Naut. Direct Drive84 Correct Craft Ski Tique93-95,00 Correct Craft Sport Nautique09 Correct Craft196 w/ or w/o Hydro-Gate09 Correct Craft206 w/ or w/o Hydro-Gate10-20 Correct CraftSki Nautique 20087 Eliminator Comp Skier86-89 Fineline/Ski Centurion Barefoot Warrior 92-93 Fineline/Ski Centurion Bimini Skier99-01 Fineline/Ski Centurion Eclipse88-89,98Fineline/Ski Centurion Falcon90 Fineline/Ski Centurion Falcon Barefoot96-97,02-03 Fineline/Ski Centurion LaPoint02-03 Fineline/Ski Centurion LaPoint Open Bow94-95 Fineline/Ski Centurion LaPoint Tru Trac84 Fineline/Ski Centurion Ski Centurion04-05 Fineline/Ski Centurion T5 Comp 90-93 Fineline/Ski Centurion Tru Trac III85-86 Fineline/Ski Centurion Tru Trac87-88 Fineline/Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 94-95 Fineline/Ski Centurion Warrior Barefoot 89 Flightcraft 18XL Outboard87-89 Flightcraft Flightcraft88 Flightcraft Inboard 89 FlightcraftXLSS02-06 Gekko GTR 2285 Glastron Ski Machine O/B 150hp85-86 Hydrodyne O/B 150hp,235hp 92-93 Hydrodyne 20' Inboard Comp87-90 Hydrodyne 20' O/B94-96 Hydrodyne Comp XP94 Hydrodyne Grand Sport85 HydrodyneI/O 84 Hydrodyne O/B 150hp Johnson84 Hydrodyne O/B 150hp Mercury 87 Hydrostream Vegas Skier00-03 Infinity ZX-1 01-02 Infinity ZX-1 Open Bow93-97 Malibu Echelon93 Malibu Echelon LX Open Bow90-92 Malibu Flightcraft 18XLT90-99 Malibu Flightcraft 0XLOBT/Barefoot 89-93 Malibu Malibu Skier Euro Sport95-96,98 Malibu Response02-04 Malibu Response Barefooter96-04 Malibu Response LX 1:101 Malibu Response LX 36500 Malibu Response LX 1.5:103-09 Malibu Response LXi06 Malibu Response LXi 38309- 11 MalibuResponse FXi11-20 MalibuResponse TXi85-90 Malibu Skier98,02 Malibu Sportster03 Malibu Sportster LX92,95,99 Malibu Sunsetter96 Malibu Tantrum86-91 Marlin Magnum Skier91-99 MasterCraft Barefoot 20083-84 MasterCraft Direct Drive84-85 MasterCraft O/B 150hp,200hp 83-86 MasterCraft Power Slot87-13 MasterCraft ProStar 19014-20 MasterCraftProStar00-01 MasterCraft ProStar 19502-13 MasterCraft ProStar 19787-91 MasterCraft ProStar 20092-98,00 MasterCraft ProStar 20501,03-05 MasterCraft ProStar 20909 MasterCraftProStar 21401 MasterCraft 19 Skier98-00 MasterCraft Sportstar99 MasterCraft Sportstar O. Bow94,97-03 MB Sports 19004 MB Sports 190 Plus95 MB Sports Boss 200 96 MB Sports LS20093,97-99 Moomba Boomerang98-01 Moomba Kanga99 Moomba Mobius98-01,03-09 Moomba Outback99-01 Moomba Outback LS92-93 Moore Marine Ski Pro 2000 FT.94-97 Moore Marine Ski Pro Footer I/O85-87 Moore Marine Ski Pro I/O02-04 Moore Marine Ski Pro Extreme 98-06 Sanger DXII Barefooter88-97 Sanger Barefoot O/B92-94 Sanger Ski Sanger DXII87-91 Sanger Skier91-92 Sea Ray 190SK93-96 Sea Ray Spitfire96 Sea Ray Spitfire EFI 93-94 Sea Ray Sportster93-94 Sea Ray Sportster BR85,87 Ski Eliminator91-92,94-95 Ski West California Skier92 Ski-Riffic Ski-Riffic90 Sleek Craft Boat Ski SK.

 

 

Hey ! AWSA certified em, Why not use em?

[skierjp]

LOL, not even for a free entry!

[dbutcher]

How long will it be before the ski boat manufacturers no longer care whether they qualify for Nationals?

[ForrestGump]

It depends on if the current buying trend of the big v-drives continues. They are in year 10 since it started. Mfrs have sold every production slot they have for the last couple of years. Which is absolutely why the price of direct drives has gone up. They are starting to balance out the earnings of production slots. If your SG&A doesn't change. If your man hours are relatively the same. And your material costs are roughly equitable between two models, then it makes zero fiscal sense to burden a production slot with a lower net profit. So either the price of the DD production slot has to increase. Or the demand for the higher price VD production slot has to drop for multiple years. Purely demand economics at play.

[The_MS]

We are going to sanction our events for the summer season next week and if we don’t have boat commitments by Feb we are going to cancel. It would be great if all LOCs would do this to put financial pressure on USAWS to make some moves and not let it drag on

[Horton]

@The_MS are you prepared to raise money to compensate the boat owners?

[unksskis]

@The_MS i don’t understand how that is going to work? Don’t the manufacturers need to commit to the tournaments?

[The_MS]

@Horton we are raising the cost we will have to pay a promo to attend. Budget is 300 each and free entry. However we do not have any local boat owners willing to commit personal boats for the events. Even if we get one commitment, do you think they will offer to pull 6 rounds?

@unksskis we are going through the proper channels to request/acquire boats for the events

[Horton]

@The_MS you are facing the exact issue that this thread is about. At some level WE are USAWS and WE have to solve it.

 

By the way is that $300 Total? $300 per boat? What ?

[jayski]

@The_MS I'll bring my new tug, $100/boat hr, free entry, free accommodations, and I'll be the Pan am and work any where you need for judging/driving too

[The_MS]

300 per boat

I can’t solve it, I can only dry up the revenue stream for the people getting paid to figure it out like they are supposed to. We can’t have 100 different clubs doing different things all across the nation. Just lay out the expectations or process and we will follow the guidelines.

[Horton]

@jayski $100 per boat hour is a bit rich but honestly $50 is not crazy

 

@The_MS so if you get one boat or three boats it's still $300 per boat? I really believe the future is a tax per ride or per engine hour.

[The_MS]

I will settle on anything as long as we don’t have to get in a bidding war for boats. I may offer 300 and the next club will give him 325 and I’m out.

[The_MS]

@jayski long ways to drag a boat.

[dave2ball]

@The_MS if only one boat shows up to pull 6 rounds or 3 for a one day event and you have set a budget for multi boats why not give the whole budget to the lone boat? Not really right to pay somebody 300 or 325 for 16 hrs on a boat.

[The_MS]

@dave2ball I agree. That is the issue. We may get 1 commitment but then they wouldn’t want to pull the 6 rounds and I wouldn’t expect them to. The 300 is not total budget but our plan per boat, hopefully to get 2. But what if someone else can put up 350 each? Maybe just get into a bidding war and collect a per skier at the event. Have a no refund policy and warn in advance that the cost to ski may go up based on boat cost. It just sucks to plan events and not get commitments or even know who is on any of the promo teams and then you get close to the event and have to cancel due to no boats.

 

[klindy]

@The_MS I'm also not sure how you’re “sit in” is going to potentially force the issue. Those of us who are “in charge” of solving the problem are honestly spending a lot of time and effort in a fair solution. It’s not for a lack of effort.

 

You can potentially blame a lack of intestinal fortitude in some respects but somehow a game of chicken with the boat manufacturers doesn’t seem smart either. So the goal is a fair solution and doing anything to “add value” to the boat manufacturers so they feel they are getting a better return.

 

We can’t sell boat for them but we can find ways to incentivize people to use them. For example, the $$ per hour idea is one option. I don’t like raising the cost of tournaments at all but not having any seems even more of a concern. Perhaps doing something about the boat tests...do we need them? If so, what should they cost? Perhaps a special committee or even board representation for the manufacturer group, or perhaps individually. Again find any way to potentially expand the boats available in the promo programs.

 

Maybe a partial solution is automatically allow older boats that have been approved before. A bigger pool of potential boats to use may relieve some pressure even if for a short time.

 

Again there’s a bunch of ideas that might help but I can’t see the logic of your comment. Also, remember that the boat owner doesn’t have to accept the $25/hr (if it passes and there’s no guarantee it will). Alternative arrangements are fine between the boat owner and the tournament. One thing we’ve seen a lot more of is sites using their “own boats” anyway. Whether the site wants to collect the $25 for itself is up to them.

 

Anyway, very interested in hearing any thoughts, concerns or ideas. It’s a very important issue that won’t resolve itself.

[The_MS]

@klindy you have lots of good ideas but sanctioning is happening right now and there needs to be a set process. If this drags on, spring will be upon us. We need a process set forth that can be followed by all clubs or LOCs. If it comes close to event time and we don’t have a boat, we have no option but to cancel the event. Traditional sites with clout that have open skiers attending will not have problems getting boats but most others will.

The only answers I have is pay to play but then we get bidding wars

 

[Horton]

@The_MS charge an extra $10 per set, use your personal boat and keep the money.

[jayski]

@Horton wait....charge an extra $10 a set? Soooo 6 min per skier tourney set, 10 sets a round, $100/hour :D

[The_MS]

I’m not using my boat.

[dave2ball]

@The_MS if you submit a tow boat request form in a timely manner you may get a boat. Do it after the winter meeting.

[The_MS]

Should be doing it this week. Thanks

[skierjp]

I don’t like the per hour rate idea. What if one of my Team Members travels 3 hours to an event and for some reason there is let’s say 3 boats and they only use the boat for 1 or 2 hours or maybe not at all? A per hour rate won’t even come close to covering travel expenses. I think it should be a flat rate per day, per boat, whether it’s used or not. Also, a Promo Boat can not just show up and expect to be paid. They would need to be invited by the LOC or Chief Boat Driver.

I have sat through many many Winter Meetings here in Florida where they pre schedule tournaments for the upcoming season. It’s funny how they start stacking multiple tournaments on weekends and not one person gives any thought to boat availability. We have our Winter Meeting today!

FYI, you have a better chance of getting a Promo Boat at your site if your event is in the Regional Guide or online by the deadline. Pop up tournaments a month in advance just doesn’t work.

The miss treatment of Promo Boats and the lack of respect of someone else’s property is a whole other topic.

 

[Horton]

@skierjp

Ok we need some nuance and some forward-thinking. No matter the model there are possible situations that are just stupid. If we are even a little smart we can avoid situations like the one you describe above.

 

I think a flat rate is too constricting. What if 3 boats show up and most of the hours go to one boat. That would mean that all the depreciation ( & wear and tear ) goes on one owner but all 3 get the same funds. A new boat depreciates by at least $50 per engine hour.

 

If you want to offer mileage to a faraway boat that might be a good idea. All you have to do is budget for it.

 

I think @glorson has a good idea about minimum show up fees for the boats but frankly, the LOC or the chief boat driver just needs to do a little co-ordination to make sure it is fair. This is not rocket surgery!

 

[RAWSki]

There seem to be a couple of issues getting mixed in.

 

1. Providing a monetary compensation for the use(hrs) put on a promo boat at a tournament.

2. Compensating the promo owner for travel time, tow vehicle fuel and possibly food+lodging --- all this on top of an expected free tournament entry.

 

I was a promo owner for a few years. I understand the time it takes especially when you are asked to take a boat hundreds of miles. But @Shell and I love the sport, love to visit new sites and make additional skiing friends (even @The_MS )

I have spoken to a couple of manufacturers reps and they admit the old Promo program is not viable. The promo owners now have to be totally committed to the sport and willing to barely break-even or take a small loss in exchange for brand new boats every year.

 

So paying for the hours of use at a tournament seems very fair and reasonable.

 

I always make a point to thank the promo owners. I also hate to hear of any disrespect or mistreatment of promo boats. I have personally never seen or experienced this.

[jayski]

@Horton based on @Gloersen post if you used one boat it would equate to $96.67/hour cost to the LOC, if it was two boats then it's $123.33/hour. This is all based on his parameters and the 6min per skier assumption

 

Looking at used boat prices and having a pretty good general idea what a new '21 in all 3 MFG's cost here is my 'proposal' to promo guys/the powers that be/and the clubs... and to private owners allowing their boats for use:

 

Malibu TXI/Mastercraft Prostar/Nautique 200

 

2021 $65/hour

2020 $55/hour

2019 $45/hour

 

Ski Nautique

 

2021 $100/hour

2020 $70/hour

2019 $55/hour

 

Mileage paid for travel to and from tourney $0.50/mile (based off of IRS 'business rate', but reduced)

 

 

So the anomaly in this situation is the Ski Nautique, in the actual promo program it is not bought, the promo operator is not out a large chunk of money, nor do they have to worry about resale like the other promo programs, I am merely adding it into the mix as if an actual owner of one allows utilization of it. In reality the Ski Nautique under their promo program should be around the $15-$20/hour mark which is mostly to offset the promo person's costs

 

There is not a piece of equipment in this world that you do not RENT BY THE HOUR, no need for us to find some new found difficult path.

 

As a site owner that holds at least 2-3 tournaments every year I would have no issue paying these rates, for me it might actually get a promo boat to my lake and alleviate me having to buy a new boat every year or so just to hold tournaments

[dave2ball]

@jayski

That sounds or looks good on paper but I’m sure you know you will not see a 200 of any year unless it is privately owned at a tournament. So you 65.00 rate won’t fly of that is the only boat willing to pull the event. If you start setting dollar amounts to the year boat the owner will most likely not show if they are paying another boat more money. It should be a flat amount for the boat. Regardless if nautique team member own the boat they are in greater demand in some areas and still have the same costs involved with additional insurance towing fuel etc. Asking requesting boats should coordinated by the LOC. They know what is available in there area and what is a fair price for the region or area.

What has not been touched on is a private boat being used and insurance coverage. The insurance carriers know if they are promos or not when insuring them. A privately owned boat may not have proper or any insurance if something would happen.

[jayski]

@dave2ball with the utmost respect pls tell us what would be optimal, it's easy for anyone to sit back and nit pick ideas but it seems putting forth a plan is like finding a unicorn

 

there are many companies that have done well in the rental business format, the formula is secure/proven, the numbers above are legitimate with fair compensation.

 

As a owner of a 200 at that rate I would allow use at a tournament, if I owned any of them I would be game, hell I would consider buying one of each making them available to the region

 

We will always have those that will NOT want to use their 'personal' boat, but every promo guy that has a MC or TXi it is their personal boat, they pulled $75, $80, $85k plus out of their own pocket to get it, they gotta take the hit on it.

 

In regards to pricing difference per year, you need to look at it from more than one perspective, big picture, your missing many other considerations.

 

And insurance, maybe that is something that USA waterski provides within their tournament sanction.

 

There are so many ways to ease this issue but our ingrained mentality of the past is inhibiting it

[skierjp]

@Horton I still stand by my idea. Why make it so complicated? I sent 2 Nautiques to Lymanland for the Southern Regionals. The boat that traveled clear from Memphis Tenn never got used ( never left the trailer ). He traveled over 2 hours more then the other Nautique Team Member.

[Horton]

@skierjp Regionals and Nationals should likely be a separate conversation. Those bigger events may need a completely different program. At least for the moment those are events where the manufacturers actually care if they are represented or not.

 

I think the problem at hand is local class C and L tournaments.

[Horton]

Regarding different rates for different boats or years I'm not necessarily behind that. In my mind you have a standard rate of reimbursement for a boat and you give it to any boat owner current boat or 10 year old boat. I know some people are going to freak out of the idea of paying the same amount for a 10-year-old boat but that owner is banking money for maintenance or a new boat the same as anyone else.

 

I also think that people need to wrap their heads around the idea that in the future we're going to blur the lines between what is a personal boat and what is a promotional boat. The vast majority of tournaments are going to be pulled by boats that are owned by a skier.

[dave2ball]

@jayski I was n Nautique's promo for over 30 years plus. I have seen every plan put forward as far as making the team member happy and the dealer happy and really nothing has worked. What would be optimal is a far rate across the board. If you choose to use your boat you will be paid X dollars. The year should not matter. If you want to get into the boat rental business then have at it. Put a rate out there and see what happens.

 

As far as AWSA and insurance they have not stepped up in the past to help. CHUBBS ski safe are really the only companies that will insure a promo boat. Others will not. By putting AWSA as an additional insure should tell you that they will not put themselves out there as far as insurance help.

 

As far as considerations I’ve seen every program put forth by every mfg including companies that are not in business anymore.

 

It comes down to if you don’t like the package and your a private owner the don’t volunteer your boat.

 

 

[RichardDoane]

We’re planning on using the club owned boat for the club sanctioned C events. If a promo boat becomes available we’ll compensate the owner at $25/hr. and an entry. But we’re not holding our breath. The 2014 CP is a great tow rig. Easy as an email to get an exemption/approval.

[skierjp]

@Horton, I was just using that situation as a example. I have been to tournaments where time was a issue or the second round was somewhat put to a vote where X brand was left on the trailer and never used. I’ve been doing this a long time (45 boats ).

[blakeyates]

As a Promo Rep, I like most of the calculations from @jayski except for the lower Nautique calculation. Forget about how the rep gets the boat or how much he pays for it. Assuming your other calculations are good (and I think they probably are), put the Nautique price/hr in there with the others similarly or same. Pay the mileage, allow the free entry fee for the Promo rep; in many cases the promo rep may be an official, thus you can comp the room (this should be done anyway), and see how this goes. For now, remove the Regionals & Nationals from this scenario.

Note: A flat rate per boat/tournament may be OK if there is >1 boat and boat usage is even to a degree. If I bring a boat, I don't want to be the only boat pulling the event. If I am the only boat, the hourly rate would need to apply. Last, let's see what solutions or incentives that USAWS may come up with.

[dave2ball]

@blakeyates do you really think USA Waterski is going to help with money. It seems like all USA will do is allow older boats to pull events.

[RAWSki]

@skierjp I have been in that situation where I brought a boat and for whatever reason (typically what you described) it didn't get used. It's a little frustrating but I learned it would happen. I always made sure the scorers posted that the boat was there for credit and I filled out my manufacturer's form with the chief driver. So I got to ski, got credit and no boat hours. Not a terrible deal.

 

Granted in the current climate the issue is not enough boats and too many hours going onto 1 or 2 boats that do show up. So a small fee that doesn't drastically affect entry fees makes some sense. Will it change the availability of promo boats? Doubtful.

[jayski]

@dave2ball 30 years of history got us to where we are, past knowledge is a useful tool but how about some idea of what could work, with all due respect to you please share with your vast knowledge of what may work, we can all sit here forever and show err and throw shade on ideas but at least some of us are trying to find a solution.

[dbutcher]

I have tired of reading this thread, but it sure has made me appreciate the manufacturers' historical promo boat plans. Their past contributions have been underappreciated by many of us. Many years ago I was a promo boat operator, and I enjoyed it. The only remuneration I got was a price reduction on my next boat for each tournament attended (up to a specified maximum number). I was going to the tournaments anyway. Being paid for my travel never crossed my mind. Getting a new boat every year at a good price had value to me.

 

Would the following work? After having been sworn to secrecy on dealer cost, a promo operator buys a boat from a dealer at dealer cost, pays the dealer a $500 make ready fee, pulls tournaments for a season, sells the boat himself/herself, pays the dealer a small fee for perhaps taking a sale away from the dealer, and buys a new boat at dealer cost less tournament credits supported by the manufacturer. Then the cycle starts over. The dealer could live with it, the manufacturer gets exposure in exchange for tournament credits of perhaps $100 per tournament, and the promo operator gets a new boat every year without a huge dollar loss. Unless I am overlooking something, it should work.

[kurt]

@jayski in the construction world any piece of equipment is rented per day not per hour. When I call to rent I tell them what i need , they send out the equipment . I might get a brand new skytrack or i might get one 10 years old . The cost to rent is the same. The equipment does the job. Then i call and they come pick it up and send me a bill.

Yes we mutter when we get the 10 year old one but it still does the job and a lot of times if i do complain they say thats the only one available right now.

I get billed for rent of the equipment and trucking to and from the job .

 

Does this relate to ski boats? yes and no....

 

I am extremely thankful we in Michigan have big support from our MC dealer!