Sure-Path demo and James Timothy interview

[Horton]

 

http://sure-path.com/

[bishop8950]

This looks great. I have end course running all the time and frequently review my driving at the end of a set. But having it at the end of the lake and having it measured would be a huge improvement.

 

I think this can really help aspiring drivers get in the right ball park quickly.

 

Not sure what the implications are for tournaments. We currently have very rare re-rides based on boat path but this could change that quickly

[Mateo_Vargas]

Love it, makes driving like a video game!

[jimbrake]

@Mateo_Vargas - so you only look at the screen while you're driving and not the actual course ahead of you, right?

[Horton]

@jimbrake I am never sure when you are joking. No, I do not think that is safe or recommended. No No No.

[Stevie Boy]

Eyes Up and Straight ahead for me, might have a ganders at the end of the course to see if my line is as good as I think it is, always room for improvement.

Never assume that the technology is working correctly.

Did the Guy Skiing, Make One Ball ?

[cacman]

wouldn't the device need to be mounted on pylon?

[Horton]

@cacman the sensor is on the pylon. The system consists of two GPS stations, some other hardware and two cell phones. The cell phone that you see in the video is capturing the data for later review and showing live data. The whole thing is just amazing.

[disland]

Cool tech but please dont make it mandatory for L class tournaments, R and or cash prize events maybe

[Horton]

@disland I don't think the rules have even begun to be written about this. I would propose that this system could replace end course cameras. I imagine over time this system would replace all end course cameras.

[cacman]

Yep checked out web site Makes sense now.

[jayski]

I would gladly take this system over using end course camera! End course camera is not a way to accurately define a in tolerance boat path. Once this Kungflu situation calms down we'll be running one at Cottonwood

[disland]

No argument it's better, but do we really want to mandate a $2150 minimum, piece of gear to hold a tournament?

[jimbrake]

@Horton - seriously? After all these years? I am always joking. Always. Except for sometimes, but mostly always. Usually.

 

(I do like to rely on people being able to figure that out though and not include a gratuitous "LOL" or funny emoji.)

[jayski]

Well what we need is to alleviate ALL video cameras and have just a boat driver and boat judge...since we are already mapping the buoys in the course another sensor on a ski would aid us in any need for video or video review, ski path could be tracked for each pass! Boat judge can review both boat and skier after each pass and give the thumbs up or thumbs down...Might be $5k but in comparison to the PIA of what we currently use it would be a good cost savings (inclusive of time)

[Jtim3032]

@jayski absolutely agree about reducing the number of judges required for tournament. That said, an rtk setup needs an antenna at least 4" in diameter and thus, for now at least it is not feasible to mount on the ski or skier. Give it time though :)

[dbutcher]

I would Iike to have one. Is this system easily and quickly transferable from boat to boat? Is there any chance that the price may come down significantly any time soon? Or ever?

[teammalibu]

@dbutcher Don give David West a call he is up to speed on the costs and has some good ideas on making it more affordable at Cypress!

[EricKelley]

Horton you touched on a big issue with driving in that drivers are not getting immediate feedback. At record tournaments it is a requirement that the chief boat driver or a designee continually monitor end course video. This needs to be done and there should be a private radio for the end course monitor and the driver. The end course monitor needs to help the driver real time. I would encourage this practice even at class C tournaments.

This is even more accurately accomplished with this Sure Path technology.

 

[mwfillmore]

Looks awesome.... definitely added to the wish list.

[jayski]

@dbutcher you can rent mine after I get it! :)

[MISkier]

@jayski, I thought of the same thing. It probably should be a piece of equipment that our State association has and rents to the LOCs. We do that for radios, safety kits, PA system, etc.

 

I have to admit, I would like to get one or at least have one locally to use. I think it's a great product.

[disland]

Bump, what sites have it now, are they shipping to new sites beyond the beta testers?

[skiinxs]

I have been using for over a month at Lake of Dreams.

[disland]

@skiinxs how is it working for you? How easy was the setup?

[skiinxs]

@disland It is working great and was very easy to set up. James pushes new updates frequently. The system is a great tool that gives the driver instant audible feedback while in the course and a great summary that can be reviewed at the end of each pass. (Much better than a boat judge telling you to move two inches left at the same time someone watching end course video is telling you to move two inches right:)

 

 

[MichaelGoodman]

bump @horton do you have one you are testing?

 

 

 

[Horton]

@MichaelGoodman not yet but I'll be standing out front waiting for the FedEx truck on Monday....

[kurt]

@MichaelGoodman , i have one . its fantastic

[lakeaustinskier]

My ski partner and I recently bought one for our boat (2017 CC200). We only purchased the boat based equipment since we are splitting the cost of the base system with other members at our lake.

 

James Timothy of SurePath has been great with shipping times and QA.

 

Our unit arrived with a loose circuit board - probably due to shipping vibration whatever. Once we figured it out we popped it back in and were good.

 

We use a hot spot from our cell phones - and not a SIM card (our base station is very close so a hot spot should work fine).

 

We DID have a problem with not getting a lock for the system. GPS yes, but no communication with the base station. The system was spotty at best.

 

Turns out that when we were plugging in the USB cable into the USB port the unit was not receiving enough power (dirty power). We were unaware that some USB ports are low power and only designed to interface with a stereo/Bluetooth while other USB ports have higher power. Unfortunately on our boat it was tough to tell what USB was what type of connection.

 

Went out and bought a DC/USB adaptor (a cigarette lighter/USB adaptor), plugged it in and boom - the unit works great. Good power = the system works great.

 

IMO SurePath has really helped us with our driving tendencies (good and bad).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skierjp]

Already in use in Florida

[MISkier]

Tried this at a tournament last night. Humbling and enlightening. Definitely pointed out my driving tendency and overall capability.

 

I noticed a couple things. The pylon mount could get bumped/moved and the transceiver would be off center. Maybe the boat companies will put a calibrated keyway into the pylon or another standard attachment point (threaded holes, etc.) to allow the mounting of the Sure-Path to be absolute center and unmovable. There was some back and forth between the float and fix mode. The monitoring of that was important or it did not record the pass. I'm not sure if there is also an audible cue for each mode, but it would be good to easily know that you need to set the mode.

 

Other than those minor things, I thought it was great. Will certainly help drivers improve. I can see this becoming a big part of tournament officiating.

 

[jjackkrash]

I am about to place an order and have a few questions if anyone knows.

 

Does the course need to be perfect or at least within tolerance for this to work? Or just the gates?

 

If so, will this system confirm the course is in tolerance and accurate enough for it to work without separate homologation software?

 

If I need homologation software, do I need to haul my Cal-Poly-educated nephew up here to figure it out for me and tell me what the hell homologation means? (Kinda kidding).

 

I have been told the course I ski is accurate and in tolerance, but it would be a big bonus to know 100% for sure and/or fix anything that is out of wack.

[Jtim3032]

@jjackkrash only the gates are needed for Sure-Path do its stuff in that it draws a virtual line between the centres of the two gates and tells you the deviations from that line. HOWEVER, if the rest of the course is badly out (ie if the boat lane is bent or varies in width), the driver will find it very difficult to drive that line since all his reference points will be the boat lane guide buoys as he travels down the course.

 

Sure-Path can survey all the rest of your buoys in the course and tell you how far from ideal they are. You can also export that data into one of the approved homologation software applications for an "official" homologation to be done.

 

James

[skierjp]

I would think if it’s used on a floating course and the course is susceptible to any bow do to wind it would be useless. Maybe not good on any floating course scenario.I’m sure James will respond.

[The_MS]

So will this eliminate all the SR drivers that should not have a rating?

[Horton]

@The_MS it should make everyone a better driver. It will for sure shine a light on drivers that really can't get it done.

[Chad_Scott]

Agree with @Horton this technology will help the drivers that want to be better. It certainly sheds light on those that shouldn’t be driving certain levels of skiers. Tracking technology is a must if you want to improve driving skills. Not only does it allow you to see the path, but you can take the data and study what you are doing with the boat and when you are doing it. I have looked at several paths that looked good by the numbers but were not really great for the skier on the end of the line.

[jayski]

Now I just hope that our governing bodies do not use this new access to information and force drivers to focus on zero's down the course at the expense of the skiers

 

Maybe they need to remove the "pattern" driving portion of the rule, I understand the initial need for it but with this type of tracking it could be easy to label "pattern driving", there is no hard definition of what that term means in relevance to the new data we now have available

[Horton]

@jayski the tolerance exist for a reason. Every driver should strive to be a straight as possible and make it feel as good as possible. It's not either or. It's both.

 

Driving to the edge of the tolerance when you can go straighter is pattern driving and is against the intent of the rules.

[Horton]

This morning I sat at my dining room table and reviewed the path data on my laptop as @rico drove @ColeGiacopuzzi at SkiWest. Now that's cool. Just wish we could get @rico to drive that well when I'm skiing.

[jayski]

@Horton fully understand and agree, however it is easy to deem passes "pattern" driving when you have that data available. What I am saying is that the definition of "pattern driving" does not and was not defined in detail enough to now deal with the data available.

 

Under the current "assumption" of the definition of pattern driving, if you drove, and at each buoy you were positive but well within the mandated tolerances, is that pattern driving? Even if it was between 3-5cm each time? Or all the numbers were positive but with varying amounts, but within tolerance? Will all those that review these passes have the SAME understanding of allowable measurements?

 

All I am saying is that as it sits the rule can easily be used to deem pattern driving to even the smallest measurement AND will cause drivers to be fearful of that (which is good to a point) and more than likely, consciously, be fearful of positives with the result it not "feeling as good" to the skiers. In the 6 or so tourneys I have had Sure Path in use easily the majority of 'new' to the system drivers all focused more on the numbers and getting "zero's" (as you once stated) and lost most regard for the skiers. Most were Sr drivers and INT drivers.

 

Yes it tightens tolerances, which is good, and it is an amazing learning tool BUT the acceptability level of the "pattern diving" label needs to be defined or preferably removed all together.

 

Here's the question, assuming we, the skiers. decide what WE want for our sport...if you can get a driver who can give you positives all the way down and make it "feel good" is that not what you would prefer or do you want a driver that drives a freight train down the middle?

 

It's pretty simple, we already have our tolerance driving measurements, keep it in those tolerances and life is good!

 

 

[jjackkrash]

I have always thought that freight train down the middle in both speed and path would be harder but fair. It would cost skiers some balls but so what. We are already pretty close to being out of rope and the better skiers would adapt and still be the better skiers.

 

(By the way, I am aware pretty much no one else thinks this way, so no need to tell me that).

[Jtim3032]

@jayski @jjackkrash @Horton Sorry I should have chipped in a couple of weeks ago. The Rules do indeed define the level of movement a boat is allowed "toward" the skier at each buoy before it is deemed to be "unfair" or pattern driving and that is via the accumulative deviations. The positive deviations at each buoy add up as you go down the course and the max allowed total is defined for each buoy. The maximum total at buoy 6 is 49cm so it is easy to see that if the boat was more than 8cm on average (it is not linear) towards the skier then this breaches the cumulative rule.

 

Of course there is a legitimate debate about what the allowed values at each buoy should be or indeed where the boat is when measuring the deviation at each buoy. Now we are able to easily collect accurate data, we can start to do some meaningful analysis on this so that future versions of the rule can be written based on real analytics.

[Chad_Scott]

I would say that pattern driving is purposely manipulating the boat to the maximum deviation at each buoy. Plus 20cm plus 20cm and we have all seen videos of this. If you drive in the plus and stay within the cumulative of 49cm, which basically only allows you approximately 8cm or about 3 inches per buoy, I don’t believe there will ever be an issue or someone describing that as pattern driving. My .02 cent

[Jtim3032]

@Chad_Scott 100% agree...

[slow]

Isn’t making the pull good for the skier a type of pattern driving.

The term pattern driving should be removed and pure data from tolerances should be used to validate a ride. You are either in spec or not.

[Horton]

I don't know how we're going to define the difference between "using up the tolerance to the skiers advantage" vs "making the pull feel good". I'm not sure the best feeling ride necessarily means the most pylon movement anyway.

[MISkier]

I don't think you need to bounce the boat off the boat guide nearest the skier to make the pull good for the skier. I believe it is more about line tension at the right times - resisting the pull of the skier and releasing them in a rhythm with the pass. The skier most likely doesn't want to pull the boat around (the resisting counteracts this) nor do they want the boat always on them (the releasing prevents that). These are subtle actions that can be done with the pylon in tight tolerance down the middle. In fact, that is the best way to do them, as a whole bunch of stern wagging isn't really maintaining that connection well either.

 

There is also a certain level of anticipation in the countersteer to pick the skier up off the buoy. Again, it's a subtle action that, when timed right, is imperceptible to the path and restores the line tension the skier can work with.

 

 

[jjackkrash]

Order placed. :)