Reflex Boot/Binding Issues

[Joeprunc]

I'm posting this for a ski buddy, but also want to know myself as I am very close to trying out a Reflex front boot.

 

Friend purchased a brand new Reflex front boot/binding system from a reputable store, they set it up for him and he verified it per the Reflex Manual. He is a size 12 boot black with a Large carbon plate. His din setting was originally 4.5 and could safely release from the dock. He has had maybe 4/5 sets on the system and having a hell of a time. After one pass he notices that there is significant play in his toe, left/right. He tried to increase the din to 6/7 to help this, but it hasn't. He has had two pretty bad releases while crossing the wake this week and is about ready to throw away the Relfex system.

 

I know most of you are very meticulous and know your systems inside and out, hoping for some guidance to keep him on reflex, and maybe sell me on the system too.

 

Two things we noticed on the dock yesterday (while keeping social distancing)

1) When he first locks in the boot is secure as it should. If any backward force is applied to the boot, the release mechanism moves and allows the toe to only contact the bar at the top. This movement is excessive, maybe 1/4". This allows the left/right toe wiggle. I know you can move the binding mounting point to the next hole forward, but that should be only after the boot wears.

 

2) The large plate has a lot of "Rise" at the toe bar. Due to the large foot, mounting hole locations and load put on the plate from the boot/binding, the plate of the toe bar is maybe 1/16" to 1/8" off the face of the ski. He is on a 68" 2019 Vapor Pro Build. To get the proper boot placement there are no other holes in binding or ski to better secure this.

 

We are just average weekend warriors, he skis at -15' - 30mph through 34mph.

 

Two other folks in our club also have the Reflex system. Ones boot did not move at all (size 8 with small plate), the other moved just as much (size 10 with small plate), but his system is older and was still on the rear hole for the release mechanism.

 

Any help would be awesome.

[Horton]

1. the "number setting" in the release is not a DIN setting. I strongly discourage anyone from thinking the numbers are more than a reference.

2. Tightening the release screw only changes the release tension.

3. The distance between the front toe hoop and the release MUST be exactly right so when the release is engaged the boot is compressed from both ends. IF the toe of the boot has play you have a problem.

[Horton]

[Horton]

[vtmecheng]

I'm not a Reflex user but generally pics help a lot in these cases. If you can get some pics of the setup I bet others here will be able to help a lot more.

[Deanoski]

the heel needs to be moved to forward hole in the block

 

increasing tension will not change the play in the system

[Joeprunc]

@Horton thank you for the replies. Like I said, I haven't used this system, but as an engineer I always like to understand and fix things. Dooley noted on the setting is not being a DIN setting. With a snow ski background, that is where my mind traveled. Thank you for the clarification.

 

@Deanoski thank you that's what I was thinking, however with a brand new system I'd expect better tolerances from the showroom. That's were I was thinking if there was an issue with the rise of the plate at the toe bar.

[Joeprunc]

@vtmecheng I agree, but didn't think about pictures yesterday. And unfortunately isn't my setup. I'll see if he can send me some photos, or post them here if he is a user.

[Horton]

@Joeprunc bottom line is if the boot is not at least slightly compressed between the release and the toe hoop there is a fundamental problem.

[LOTW]

Sounds like the release needs to go forward one hole, could lead to some very SCARY prereleases! Could seem different on the bench vs. actually having the skier in the boot. I've had this happen on new boots as they wear in as previously stated and had to move the release forward, all good after that. I use double Reflex and it happens to the rear also. They tend to prerelease across the wakes while at mach 3, good times!

[C5Quest]

^^^This. Sounds like a simple set up error but need pics to confirm

[Joeprunc]

@Horton there is compression on the boot between the hoop and release mech, when first clipped in. However if a force is applied to the toe boot towards the rear of the ski (easiest way to emulate on the dock), the release mechanism moves slightly which then the compression is no longer existent. The movement of the release mechanism is an angular movement.

 

I tried my best to draw it out, and will see if I can get a few picts or a video of it.

[Joeprunc]

@Gloersen thank you for that I was looking for that image yesterday to verify, but didn't have the chance. From what he said is the large carbon plate only had one set of holes for the front hoop, so a little different than the G10. Looking online from what he said it looks like this.

 

 

I will relay all this info to my friend and see if it can provide some guidance. I think the solution is probably to move to the forward hole. but that's a bummer that any boot wear or deformation he doesn't have any adjustments.

[DanE]

@Gloersen

From what I have seen the spacers at the toe bar is just a final adjustment to a non precision manufacturing process.

My boot (8 shell) had them but not my sons

(12 shell).

Neither of our setups has had any malfunction.

[Buxrus]

I had same issue when I got new 840 system. See picture. There are two holes for the swing arm and locking mechanism. I moved mine forward to first hole. Problem solved.

 

[eleeski]

The horseshoe on the front of the Reflex can cause problems. A few alternative horseshoes are out there. The best might be the FM style adjustable horseshoe.

 

I've fixed some horseshoe issues with a big washer to stiffen up the horseshoe on early versions. Flexing in the plate/horseshoe made for interesting releases and the washer helped. I've adjusted some horseshoes with vertical play by adding some split tubing or just some wraps of duct tape to the top of the horseshoe. Note that if you add a washer, you will generate some clearance that needs to be addressed.

 

Adding shims under the toe might work as well but I haven't done that fix.

 

Reflex has done a good job recently with the fit and function of their setups. At least I haven't had to fix any for a while. It sounds like you have an issue with your front horseshoe (wrong size?). They should be able to fix it for you if you aren't comfortable doing it yourself.

 

Eric

[BraceMaker]

" The large plate has a lot of "Rise" at the toe bar. Due to the large foot, mounting hole locations and load put on the plate from the boot/binding, the plate of the toe bar is maybe 1/16" to 1/8" off the face of the ski. He is on a 68" 2019 Vapor Pro Build. To get the proper boot placement there are no other holes in binding or ski to better secure this."

 

^ This should not be happening start there.

 

If he's got the large plate there is another row of slots that most skis do not have inserts for (trick skis usually have these holes). You'll need to secure or stiffen the front of the plate to keep it down to the ski, otherwise as the toe comes up the release leans back.

 

In most reflex applications you will find that with the boot locked in you can physically "pull" the release off the heel ledge without it tripping by leaning the release body back. It isn't actually confined to the vertical mechanically - the ledge just as a slight slope because of this if the toe can come up that ledge slopes towards flat and the release can pop.

[Joeprunc]

@BraceMaker I have a feeling you hit the nail on the head.

 

[BraceMaker]

When he prereleases is the unit tripped? Or does he need to trip it to remount

[Jmoski]

Two things to check that I ran into:

 

1. As others mentioned there are two holes in the mount where the rear bar can be installed, I moved mine forward after a season of skiing to tighten it up.

 

2. Make sure the toe bale in the front is locked in, unfortunately you have to unbolt the plate from your ski to flip it over to check the bolts for the toe bale. My loosened up over a season and had a nasty OTF because of it.

 

I wonder if because your plate isn’t flush to the ski in the front it’s allowing the bolts for the toe bale to loosen more easily.

 

Given its relatively new, you might want to send it back as something is amiss.

[skialex]

@BraceMaker it’s an indication, but sometimes the release hit hard at the rear boot/RTP and comes back to lock position and you have to trip it to remount. I know it has happened to me and I don’t prerelease, usually I get about one release or less a year and my unit is set at 4-4.5.

In this case though with the described play between the boot and the plate the unit wouldn’t trip anyway to initiate a release.

Size 12 plate has only one mounting option and you can not go wrong, so it is either a size 10 shell or the plate is faulty.

[Avon]

Just one skiers opinion...

 

Last Fall I decided to stop using the this type of release system (Size 12 White Cuff/Carbon Plate/Single toe loop). I skied it with success and liked some aspects of it. 200lb, 34 mph skier with a size 12 binding. Set it up with the recommendation of instructors & experienced skiers including some on this thread. The binding / mechanism released many times when I would have expected to come out of a traditional (rubber) binding. Although, the block on the heel of the boot punched a hole (laceration) in my rear leg (shin) 4-5 times.

 

More importantly, I experienced what I would describe as an unexpected (early) release at the wake on different conditions. It is my opinion that the front of the boot (shell) compresses, plate lifts, or the ski flexes, and allows the toe of the boot to come out from underneath the metal loop / mechanism to release when it otherwise should not. I experienced two serious injuries in part because of it.

 

Too unpredictable and too many variables in this skiers opinion.

 

I have since skied traditional rubber bindings and had the same level of success skiing the course. I grew weary of the unexpected separations from the ski (early release) at the wake or the injuries to my rear leg from the front boot / shell upon separation.

 

Good Luck. Ski Well. Ski Safe.

[Lovell]

My bet is that the plate or the boot is the wrong size for one or the other or vice versa. When I switched to the reflex, the retailer sent me the wrong plate. I did not know the difference and the set up looked ok on land. Then when I tried to ski it, I got up turned 1 ball and pre released toe first, I then did it again. Then I called the retailer, got the right plate, re installed and it worked fine.

[Joeprunc]

Thank you everyone.

@BraceMaker I'm not sure if the release mech is releasing or there is enough slop to pre-release.

@Jmoski I think that is a solution to move to the forward hole, but something right out of the box I would hope for better tolerances. The toe hoop is tight.

 

@Avon Thank you for the personal insight, I will relay this to my buddy, as he is leaning towards going back with double rubber boots.

 

@lovell its a size 12 boot, 12s will not fit on any other plate. Large plate only has one set of hole patterns.

 

All thank you for all this insight and help. I think @BraceMaker hit it on the head, the plate at the toe bar is flexing allowing toe bar movement. It seems like the only way to cure this is to add inserts to the front most slotted hole section, and bolt down the front plate with 8 screws. You can probably get away with moving the release hinge forward, but ultimately you will be putting more stress on the toe bar and plate that I'd be afraid of a fatigue failure.

 

Again I think Reflex is a great system, and personally I'm even looking at upgrading myself (I'd be a size 8 with small plate), but just wanted to learn more as to why my friend was having issues. Hopefully I can talk him into just adding a set of inserts.

[Lovell]

In my case, what I learned after the fact was that the retailer sent me the super shell plate for the regular boot. This was hard to identify out of the box.