Coach a total Newbie!

[papp101]

Howdy all,

 

Just recently started getting up consistently on one ski via deep-water starts. I look like gumby out there, and would love a little advice!

 

Details:

Boat:2000 Bayliner 160

Motor:Mercury/mariner 90 with 4-blade 19p prop.

Dead Weight:2 extra batteries in the rear with a trolling motor up front. Usually 2 other adults and/or kids in the boat

Anti-Dead Weight:smarttabs installed

Ski Gear: 67" HO Burner skis, looks like very little rocker and twin tunnels underneath - The video is shot with a 68" Obrien World Team borrowed for the day.

Ski Speed: Started at 26, now running more at 28-30mph. I'm using the full rope (75' i believe.)

Skier: 185lbs, 5' 10".

 

 

I tried a 68" Obrien World Team ski this past weekend (seen in the video,) and I liked it - felt way more stable for sure. I can tell I don't have a good knees/hips/shoulders stack yet, but damn that big center wake is a big jump! I'm going to experiment with bow weight, also stiffening up my rear trim tabs to lift the tail a bit more.

 

I'm in the market for a better used ski that might fit the type of lazy lake skiing i've got time for with 2 little kiddos. :)

 

I'd love your input on anything that would help!

[Jetsetr]

A 69 inch ski would help, you’re right on the edge with your weight. Would make starts a bit easier (a LOT easier) also with the outboard. You’re skiing on the tail of the ski, need to get weight forward.

Can’t go wrong with a Radar Butterknife or Katana (would go with The Butterknife, a bit wider and with only 90hp you need all the help you can get. It’s a bit wider (more area=more lift) than the Katana....super easy to ski and very forgiving.

[Martin1980]

To start work on getting into a better slalom rhythm on a 60' foot rope which is 15' off. Watch this video to get a idea of what rhythm you are shooting for a 30 mph.

 

Increase your lean through both wakes with the maximum effort behind the boat then stop leaning after the second wake.

[Jetsetr]

That’s a great video, but unless you have the proper form (stack) and get off the tail of the ski (weight forward) it’s not going to happen. Also, you can hear the zero off pulling power when he comes off the ball and loads the line up. With only 90 hp and a heavy boat it will just about stop the boat, or at least seriously pull the ass end around with a hard pull.

 

I’m kinda thinking he just wants to have fun (what a concept) and ski on a bit better/newer ski...

He’s not worried about chasing balls, PB’s or short line skiing. Get him on a good stick and the rest will come along with time.

[scorban2]

First off, great job - that's good skiing for just getting consistent with deep water starts.

 

I spent my first 12 years of slalom skiing behind various I/O's, and that while your wake may not be ski boat quality, it looks decent for the situation. I'd echo @Martin1980 on shortening the rope to 60' since it looks like the wake is a little smaller up closer, but it's also narrower. Once you get to cutting a bit harder, the wake will feel more like one bump vs. 2 if you find a narrower crossing point.

 

As far as technique, the one thing I'd say to work on is trying to keep your cut consistent as you cross the wake. No doubt the wake will shake you a bit, but when you lay off your cut coming into the wake, not only is your ski flatter to hit the wake with, your also slowing down, which messes with your balance. In your case, instead of cutting out so far, go out half that far, and focus on consistent (maybe slower to start) cuts all the way through.

 

The smart tabs piece intrigues me. My cousin has a similar era Bayliner I/O with them (oversized), and it looks like a ski boat driving around at 25 mph or so, but has the weirdest wake I've ever seen. I'm curious to take it out with just 2 people and see what it looks like at 30+ now.

[Spencer_Shultz]

@papp101 if you can make it happen, going to a ski school for some coaching would be huge. If you start with the right fundamentals now, you’ll get to where you want to be faster.

[vtmecheng]

I won't restate what others have said. I spent a lot of time behind I/Os and outboards over the years. It really helps the wake if you increase speed. There's a big improvement increasing from 30 mph to 34 mph on these boats, the wake is so much more manageable. That may be too fast for the HO burner but it is something to keep in mind when buying a new ski. Going with something made for 28-30 mph will means the ski may not do well at a higher speed where your wakes are smaller. Instead, going with a 30-34 mph ski may be a better option. Something to consider.

[papp101]

Thank you EVERYONE for the comments! This is really encouraging. I'd love to do a ski school, but with work and kids it's probably out of the cards for a bit.

 

I'll shorten the rope up to 60'.

Work on my "stacked" stance

charge the wake a bit more on edge

Keep the boat at 30.

 

I'll shoot another video the next time I'm out! hopefully this weekend.

 

There's an affordable ski available locally - what do you all think of this for a next step?

OBRIEN Slalom Water Ski

 

I can also wait for the right deal elsewhere, those Butterknives look great, and I've read good things about the connelly concept.

 

68" or 69" in any of these?

 

Thank you again!

 

[Jetsetr]

69 for your weight.

[vtmecheng]

Check skiitagain.com for used skies. Stuff comes available all the time.

[papp101]

Thanks again everyone for the coaching!

 

I unfortunately don't have video from this morning, but I may have some this sunday.

 

I went with a buddy this morning, skied at 30mph and 15 off (I think, it looked like a 30 or 40' line with (2) 10' sections.

 

I rode behind his 1850 Alumacraft with a 150hp, definitely had more power, but I've never cut hard on my boat so who knows what it will be like once I get back to it. His wake was solid and predictable, and I crossed it slowly, but consistently.

 

I used his 67" Kidder EX Graphite Ski same as this link - which may still have been to small for me at 30 mph, but with my weight a bit more forward and balanced, it skied pretty nice i thought.

 

I took a few harder cuts - set my arms straight, set my edge and held on. For the first one, I was too far out front of the ski after the wake, loosing my stack. For the second one, I was locked in good, crossed the wake, and went so fast I forgot to come out of the pull and had a *magnificent* over the shoulder multiple spill with the ski flying off. I was still in good shape so I took a break and watched my buddy (who used to do ski shows, and is a decent off-course slalom skier) cross the wake in perfect rhythm back and forth, making it look soooooo easy. :) Experience counts.

 

 

Focusing on the stacked stance and tight abs - that made a huge difference!

Running a shorter rope and staying closer to the wake made it much easier to find a rhythm.

 

I do felt like I was riding low in the water on his ski, which may point to the 69 size and more balanced weight - so after I got home I bought this: Too much? :)

 

Connelly F1X

 

 

 

I certainly don't need that intense of a binding, but I like the idea that the F1X has a wider front and slightly wider tail, and

 

I was going to snag some gloves and another rope for a friend anyways, and the shipping was basically free so it doesn't look like that bad of a deal, and perhaps I'll have some decent resale value if I see a Katana, Freeride or Butterknife come available some time.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[papp101]

Hey y'all. Checking back in. Got out a few times but I still feel like I can't get my weight forward, or can't get that ski pointed to cross the wake.

 

Here are my 2 videos from the last two weeks.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[KRoundy]

If I were to suggest a few things I'd start with that you should not do that "pull out to the side and stay there" thing. I don't think that does much for learning to slalom ski. You need to work on skiing back and forth across the wakes. Second - when you cross the wakes you need to do as Chris Rossi suggests (and you should listen to the Spray Makers podcast) - arms straight, arms straight, have fun. So pull out hard, pause, turn and zip across the wakes, arms straight. Coast out, turn, and zip across the wakes (arms straight). Get a rhythm going side to side.

 

Keep working at it!

[Vernon Reeve]

You need to keep your speed through both wakes. After you cross the second wake, change edges to begin the turn. No more pulling until you complete the turn.

 

A couple drills to help teach this are:

"FM Web Cast Clinic - How to Slalom Water Ski : The Direction Drill"

 

A slightly more advanced version is:

Seth Stisher-Slalom Ski Rhythm Drill (Whips)"

https://youtube.com/results?search_query=whip+drill+seth+stisher

 

[papp101]

Thank you both! Next time out, I'm biting the bullet and cutting completely through. Love the drills!

[Jetsetr]

Lots of weight on the back foot...not good.

Keep your front leg bent enough so you can’t see your toes...that will shift your weight forward.

It takes time to build the confidence to aggressively cut thru the wake...baby steps are good.

Most importantly HAVE FUN!

[Svfara_1]

Be careful !! Once you nail that first turn.....your addicted.. starts getting expensive after that

[papp101]

That's y'all, the tip about covering the front toe feels different on land, and I think will help. I tied my extra ski rope to the boat trailer in the garage while I'm working from home so I can practice some of those back and forth stack drills, and try to get that weight forward in the knee bend.

 

Can't wait to try it out!

[Than_Bogan]

Your weight is almost 100% on your rear foot. This will make it impossible to progress in the slalom course, so if that is your goal, I wouldn't think about anything else until fixing that.

 

In all honesty, I would try switching which foot is forward. This will feel terrible, but if video shows that it causes you to use your (new) front foot, then it may save you a LOT of frustration in the future to just bite the bullet now.

 

Barring that, or in addition to that, spend some time skiing with only your front foot. With you rear foot not even attached, you'll have to weight the front foot and learn to balance and steer with it.

[ReallyGottaSki]

Yes, switch your feet now, else fight this forever. we've seen this before

[papp101]

Good to know! I'll give a few swings at the right foot forward, especially when I haven't built any habits yet hahaha.

 

Originally when I was skiing on two skis I'd pick up one foot and see which one felt better, and maybe just out of habit the left leg was stronger but if I do the fall test, my right foot does go forward.

 

I'll take some video skiing right foot, and will practice some of the dry land body position drills in the garage right foot forward.

[papp101]

Morning all!

 

Went again this morning, switch to right foot forward for the first time and worked on crossing the wake faster. There's a few times where I can tell that I'm leaning backwards and falling into an angle on the beginning of my cut, and those felt better. Still negotiating on how far back to lean and how that wake's going to feel when I cross it. It was a lot more fun to cross the wake a bit more aggressively and I want to just keep pushing that envelope!

 

Let me know your thoughts, and thanks for all the support!

 

 

[ReallyGottaSki]

Your stability improved alot, that means you have the correct leg forward now

 

Next, to purge the combo-stance...

After you get up, reset the body...in one motion roll shoulders back, chest out and hips forward so you are flat femur/torso hinge. Roll forward on the ankles push hips forward more, shoulders back. Now, keep everything there.

If you loose it, STOP trying to make it work the old way and reset the body above.

You should be feeling the vest between your upper arms, not air.

 

Now your flexion moves to the knees, and not the hips. Hold your yourself ridged isometrically, in all planes x,y and Z.

Now you are ready to go side to side. add small inputs into the ski.

 

Also forget your back foot exists for now and trust that front leg, get most your weight on it

 

[ReallyGottaSki]

What sort of boat is that,? Supra? Century? Martinique?

[papp101]

1987 Supra Comp

 

Thanks for the tips! I'll give it a try.

[Clydesdale]

@papp101 big improvement! More stable and balanced on your ski. I think you’re a righty. Keep it up!

[ReallyGottaSki]

Ok that would be a sunsport vs a comp, cool boat.

Is the prop chunked? The revs on the start sounded odd

 

[papp101]

@ReallyGottaSki

 

Hmm, it does indeed look like a sunsport. Belongs to my buddy, just got it this year so I may be mistaken, but I will pass along the COMPliments. :smile:

 

I asked him to take a pic of the prop markings when he gets it out of the water, I agree something is up. Prop may be too small and slipping, at WOT he is 36mph with 3ppl and 4900r, which may be a bit high, and the top speed feels a bit low. Holeshot kinda stinks, there could be some plate adjustments needed, but not until he has the right prop.

 

 

[OscawanaSkier]

“Now, keep everything there.

If you loose it, STOP trying to make it work the old way and reset the body above”

 

Interesting. I’m working hard on correcting my stance too. Should the goal be to HOLD the stacked (structured) position the WHOLE WAY through the course, or do you all cross the wakes (stacked), stand taller (without “stack”), glide, make the turn, find your stack again, cross the wakes, repeat?

[ReallyGottaSki]

@OscawanaSkier

Good question

It's best this be your default, go home position, instead of constantly rowing and moving about, hips up, hips back, do the hokey pokie.

A skier that has this form actually demonstrates very little moving about until some shortline techniques are required

There are modest adjustments to a good turn, but one wants to get back to that stack asap to put the power down.

The cut is the elusive part, where the rubber meets the road. The turn is like riding a bike, it will happen.

Many grab a big handful of turn and end up with a cross course angle that they can't maintain due to these absent basics of stance, that are the foundation of stack.

At the stage observed above, cutting drills are best; reset position, roll into cut, maintain stance, bleeding off speed along boat w rope snug, reset body. as one drifts back and boat pulls away, roll into a progressive, controlled cut again, rinse, and repeat,

[papp101]

Got out today behind the Bayliner 160 90hp on my new to me radar senate. Love this ski!

 

Trying to keep my arms straight, bend my front knee more to center my weight forward, and just simply cut harder and focus on turning the ski to cross the wakes faster. I love the feedback!

 

[iliketojump]

Hey this is awesome! If you try to think about hands in tighter to your hips it will help you get up on your front foot more and help you be more stable going through the wakes. Sometimes it’s hard to keep your handle in if you let it get away from you on the turn so make sure that while you’re turning your handle and hips are moving down water together like there’s a bungee attaching them.

While you’re turning try to feel like you’ve always got outward tension on the rope from the boat by opening up your sholders vs letting them fall square to the boat and then through the wakes back arm pressure to help pull your handle to your hips and get more on the front foot.

Hope this helps!

15 off was a good move, easier to feel the swing with the shorter rope and so was the new ski, having good equipment makes it easier! Also can’t see your hands but gloves and an over-under grip is the right move. HO makes great gloves!

[Vernon Reeve]

Looking much better. Now try to really get you chest up and proud, which will help bring your hips forward so you're not in the sitting position going across the wakes. Terry Winter has lots of excellent videos which helps to illustrate this. You can also send him a video and he'll send you detailed instructions with side by side/slow motion/marked up/commentary video making it super clear what to be working on. Well worth the costs.

https://trainwithterrywinter.com/

[Jordan]

Good for you! You are working way to becoming a waterski dude! For sure, find your way to a ski school, even if it's only for one lesson.

Get yourself a pair of decent ski gloves. Your hands will thank you and you will look so much cooler! Part of the journey.

[papp101]

Thanks all! I have yet come across an active ski school in the Minneapolis area yet, I'm sure they're around. Would love to buy a lesson!

 

Thanks for the tips about gloves, I'll order some tonight. Can't wait to take another swing at it with the tips above.

[papp101]

Back on the lake today! I can still feel myself standing up before each wake, and feeling a lot of bounce.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Thank you!

[ALPJr]

You have a nice rhythm going there. Keep working, keep thinking... a little better every day

[ETskier]

So much fun watching you improve, having fun, and makin spray. Keep it going bro!

[ReallyGottaSki]

Yes, for now turn earlier to decrease width, so your hungry for speed, and thus stay on edge instead of backing off

[ReallyGottaSki]

And stand on that front foot, stomp it

[papp101]

Thanks y'all!

 

Anyone have any tips for keeping the ski under the rope? Not even sure if I'm using the right terminology here, but sometimes I can tell that I turn in my skis behind of the rope and the next time it's in front of it, and I'm not quite sure where it needs to be, or if there's some sort of trick to nailing it in the right place.

 

 

[ReallyGottaSki]

Yes, hip forward chest out stand tall roll forward on the ankles with knees flexed, hips solid, its not your flex joint.

Stiffen iisometrically, engage all muscles and move as a unit, not loose as a goose like surfing

[DHski]

Have you considered or tried lowering the speed down further? When I was where you are and first stepped into a course, I found I wasn't charging across the wake anywhere near hard enough. And trying to charge across the wake at 30+mph with my not-good-enough-yet body position was too daunting. I went down to 25-26mph to work on good body position while charging hard through the wake. Even though the wake itself is a little bigger at that speed, it felt much less daunting and allowed me to progress much faster I think.

[ETskier]

So, here we got 2 newbies trying to just get better. This is what our sport is all about.

[papp101]

@DHski I like this idea of training down at 25 mph. Still keep the rope at 15 off?

[DHski]

I've just kept it at -15 personally

[papp101]

I took some advice and hired a coach connected to come ride in the boat, to be honest I didn't really know who was showing up as I didn't catch the name completely when we scheduled it.

 

Big thanks to @Zaneh2oski Zane Nichols for coming down to Prior Lake and running a coaching session early in the morning before his flight.

 

He really focused on me getting the rope down by my hips while crossing, which helped to turn my ski for more cross wake momentum. A few of the times I barely felt the wake, and I think that's because I was barely touching it as I crossed. Felt Great! Now to do it consistently. . .

 

 

As always I'd love your feedback. It is so much fun coming back to this thread to post another video, see my own progress, and always know there's somebody better than me ready to share some advice.

[KRoundy]

That’s looking way better. More of that! Those times you barely feel the wake, that is success!!

[papp101]

Had some great skiing days in Sturgeon Bay on vacation. Scored a Camaro wetsuit w/tags for $50, and man y'all are cheating!! That was so comfortable.

 

The line length is at about 20 off, I think I might go back to 15 off just to give myself more time and get more pendulum swing. My offside still feels very noodly, and I can tell that I'm still bent more at the hips. I did end up moving my boots forward one hole, and that seemed to help with getting my weight forward a bit.

 

My onside I can feel myself getting into a lower lean, but it's just not consistent yet.

 

Probably only a couple more weeks of skiing here in Minnesota, looking forward to picking up some cold water gloves.