Who has experienced pre-release on hardshell Reflex, Syndicate, Edge style bindings?

[DanE]

One thing the Reflex tension setting guidelines don't adress is boot size.

A smaller boot makes for a shorter lever to leverage the boot to the release point and thererfore will require a higher settimg vs a larger boot size.

[Slalom.Steve]

This is all confirming my decision to not use a hardshell. If I was an elite skier needing an extra ball or two to win tournaments, maybe. But if getting an extra ball or two means I have to always be worrying about my boot setup, and increasing my chances of getting injured, not worth it to me. Missing months on the water sucks more than missing buoys in a pass.

[LOTW]

Like anything, don't give up until you try them. They're really not that bad. Like previously stated, lock tite on the horseshoe, ck the plate screws every 3-4 sets and all good. The positives far outweigh the negs. I would never go back to soft or rubber bindings, ancient technology! There's maintenance with everything.

[skialex]

I have nothing against dry land testing, I do it too, but to relay on dry land testing to set up release tension is wrong. Look at what tension number @HMan66 ended up with. I can set my release at a very wide range and still have a successful dry land test. I would trust more the manufacturer and start at his suggested numbers. I would also asked knowledgeable fellow skiers of their opinion to adjust it to fit my style, fluid calm maybe lower tension or more aggressive maybe a bit higher...

Use dry land testing as a help guide or to check that the system works properly and there is no play or loose bolts...

I’m 180lb and my release tension is at 4.5, I don’t release that often, less than once a year. I use reflex for the past 13 years and even if I believe that my system setup works best for me, still worry about prereleases or not releasing...

[lkb]

The chart is wrong for me (I’m using the 750 version). Although I skied thousands of passes with it set at the chart recommendation with no problems, when I had the prerelease it was a violent crash that I never want to experience again and I hope no one else does either. @skialex the system has play in it when new. The hole in the end of the release arm where it bolts to the aluminum block is noticeably bigger than the diameter of the screw that holds it. It’s snug when locked in the boot but I don’t know why they designed it that way.

[Deanoski]

@skialex you use the 400 release correct

[skialex]

@Deanoski yes....?

[BCM]

About 5 years on Reflex without a pre-release (well over 1200 sets), I have been very happy with when it releases. I do a release test about every week. I do my release test in the water but is the same idea as the videos posted earlier. In doing @Horton's dock test a few years ago I face planted into the dock. I use the release test to ensure things are still operating properly.

 

About a decade on velcro, I only pre-released a couple times, didn't release when I should have lots of times, I no longer walk straight and have limited range of motion in my front ankle due to bone chips. The Reflex system isn't perfect, but I trust it a lot more than other systems I have tried.

 

I take good care of my stuff but am not over the top. I don't think I put any more time into maintaining and inspecting my Reflex than I do the rubber boots on my jumpers, my snow ski bindings, or the clipless pedals on my mountain bike.

[Slalom.Steve]

@BCM - what aspects of a rubber or soft shell boot do you have to test/inspect and adjust every 1-2 weeks?

[BCM]

@SlalomSteve - check the screws and look for cracking/torn rubber. If I add the time rebuilding my jump boots every couple years the time spent on those rubber boots is greater than my Reflex. I test my Reflex when I take it off after a set (in the water, super easy) and while checking the binding screws give the setup a good once over, it really does not take much time.

[Alberto Soares]

Front release ?

 

 

 

[ScottScott]

I'm not sure I would call that a pre-release, more like a malfunction. Those shouldn't release from the front at all.

[BraceMaker]

@ScottScott - The only way you'd be able to pop that toe out of the cup is if the silvretta unit leaned backwards. If after landing in the water she looks and the hook is still engaged on the bail then that's a malfunction.

 

But I suspect the second photo tells the story. She landed with her leg leaned hard enough back into the cuff that the cuff popped the release open. The black bit around the ankle makes me wonder

 

The release with out tripping the release used to be fairly common with the original reflex single horseshoe 404 type models. There wasn't the heel cup to hold the boot in place and the front horseshoe would bend away. Plus there were a ton of holes and people would set them in the wrong holes for the boot size, but the newer style have fewer pitfalls.

[Horton]

@Alberto Soares Properly set up "Reflex" bindings should never release from the toe. It is almost certainly a hardware failure or user error when the system was assembled.

 

My speculation on the photos above is that the skier is using a very early version of the HO system. Some of those very early systems had a front hoop that was not strong enough. HO quickly corrected this issue.

 

I personally use the HO or Edge System because I think it is the best of the bunch.

[ISP6ball]

There were a couple issues with the early version of the Syndicate hardshell, but HO and @savaiusini were awesome at taking care of the problem and putting the customer first.

 

The current version is a great product.

 

Thanks again!

[ForrestGump]

The one real pre-release I had in hardshells was the old HO hybrid boot thingy on the common rail. Whatever it was called. In practice, 35 off at Diablo Shores in 2012 it released through the gates and I splattered myself all the way to shore. I was more than a little sore and just a lot gun shy the rest of the weekend. I got on Reflex when I got back.

[The_MS]

Never experienced it but have witnessed many skiers doing it.

[Horton]

The other thing that I've seen happen is people assemble a brand new system without really understanding how it works. If the toe hoop and the release mechanism are the wrong distance apart it will almost certainly pre-release. The systems are not complicated but if you really don't know what you're looking at you should have somebody with some experience assemble it. Once assembled correctly these systems are nearly bulletproof.

[The_MS]

I have seen Lots of duct tape on the Reflex systems. Looks to be common on the front boot toe bracket

[Southside_Mike]

I had a pre-release last year and then a second one earlier this season. I had tightened a quarter turn each time. I then bought a new boot (classic slalom) and found that the setting was too tight when I dock tested. Obviously, the new boot might be slightly different but I do think that over time there is some deformation which may make a pre release more likely

 

[Deanoski]

the heel released then she came out of the toe the reflex heel has no elasticity one quick bump /or spike on the heel pressure and it will release

[ScottScott]

I have a friend that uses the Edge binding. Starting to ski one day they noticed it felt a little loose. After looking closely we could see the toe cup/bar was bent forward (possibly the handle caught it during a fall.) We banged it in with the handle, and all good. Not sure if it was an earlier model as horton referred, but definitely bent out and loose.

[KRoundy]

I’ve got to go change my vote on this one. I had a pre-release on this last Friday night going through the gates and had the worst fall of my life. My free foot hit the water and flipped me at least twice. I lived, but it was terrifying for me and for everyone watching from the shore and the boat. I hurt my neck and back, lots of Ibuprofen the next day, but nothing worse.

 

I’ve been in the Reflex SuperShell 5.0 for about a year, so about 100 sets on it. Nothing close to this had happened. I had it release on a fall perhaps two times before.

 

After the crash I checked everything, and tightened up the release settings after some land testing (Horton style). It didn’t pre-release again. But, I just don’t trust it now. I think about it every time I hit the wakes and wonder if it is going to try to kill me again. I think I am going to go back to something else that is attached to the ski. My rear boot Wiley low wrap did a great job and let my rear leg fly out no problem.

 

Not sure what to try next. I loved the control of the hard shell for sure, but it was a scary crash

[skierjp]

@KRoundy Try the new Radar Vapor boots, or even last years model.

[Cent]

Look at D3 T factor. I gave up hard shells for TFactor.

[Kelvin]

Her fall was one of the worst slalom crashes I have ever witnessed. It was scary to see her collapse and turn face down in the water.

[Deanoski]

I gave up Reflex after 12 years I'm now using a T factor fits great skis better way stiffer than a blk reflex shell IMO

[Garn]

This thread has me thinking. I have the Syndicate hardshell. I almost never take my boot out of the binding - just my liner. The boot stays in the binding all the time. Is that bad? Does it matter?

[Killer]

On 10/6/2020 at 10:03 PM, HMan66 said:

Just installed a Reflex with the 840 release. I'm 225# and the manual calls for a tension of 5. When I did the dry land release test, at 4 it wouldn't release. I kept backing it off 1/4 turn until it would release. It's now between 3 and 4. Does that seem right? I'm currently a 28mph/15 off skier.

@HMan66 I just got on the 840, first time on reflex, but I'm using the new Vapor boot, so the upper cuff is likely softer than the hardshell reflex boots.

I'm around 4 - hard to tell exactly, which is where the chart shows I should be (170lb 34mph).  Had to back it off a bit to get it to release.   only a few sets so far but the binding is solid.

any updates from you on releasing?

On 10/7/2020 at 10:52 AM, Deanoski said:

@HMan66 you need to recheck that does not seam correct im 175 and skied that heel at 5.5 and could dock test it the test should be an abrupt up and forward pull with your foot. not just pull on it with your leg to make it release.

Interesting @Deanoski I can't imagine releasing at 5.5, as I note above it was hard to get out on the dock at 4 - had my friend stand on the back of my ski too.

[Stevie Boy]

Lol! I  went to a Andy Mapple clinic where he was setting up people with the Reflex, three sets and numerous adjustments followed by numerous pre releases.

Andy Mapple says to me, "Hey Stevie probably better to stick with the Rubber"

In my opinion from what I have seen the Syndicate system, it  looks a bit more robust, especially the front boot holder, a lot of the problems with pre release, on other makes is because of the toe holder flexing.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Stevie Boy

[HMan66]

@Killer I ended up setting it at the recommended setting of 5. No pre releases, and it’s released when it was supposed to. 

[gsm_peter]

Using 750 Reflex on my trick ski. Beginner tricker. Releases every now and then. Tighten it much harder compare to table. One accident after type 200 sets, 5 years.

Prerelease jumping over wake and got the ski in the fore head. 8 stiches. Very close to my eyes.... Scary....

 

[Horton]

@gsm_peter I hear these stories and I can not understand. I believe you but it does not make any sense to me. I own 7(+/-) different  Reflex or "Reflex style" binding systems and have never had a prerelease. 

[ghutch]

@Horton to what do you credit not having a prerelease to? Just curious as I personally have not had one either...(knocks on wood). But I have seen others have one for unknown reasons, and they do take care of their equipment and check it regularly. Hope we're not jinxing ourselves by discussing this. Ski well!!

[Horton]

@ghutch I have seen plenty of pre-releases. They happen.  Most often it is older systems that are worn out and or have been modified. I have also seen more than one failure when a system is brand new and simply assembled incorrectly. Once you know how everything works it is simple but if are not clear at the beginning then bad things can happen. I have been meaning to make a video on the subject for a while. Maybe I will get off my ass and do it this week.

[BraceMaker]

@ghutch Watch people's silvretta based systems on your the dock and look for a gap between the boot shell and the release. Nothing pushes the release body forwards so the notch of the release pushing forwards, on snow skiing boots the release is way lower down on the heel of the boot by the sole of the boot and the boots are stiffer preventing this issue but in a waterski binding you can push the release back on the ledge and it will usually stay there.  The upper cuff doesn't come anywhere near them on the ski versions.  But when you have a waterski version watch people getting into the water as they sit down and move the ski around you'll see the cuff move back and push on the release.  You'll start to see gaps where the U of the finger of the release gets pushed back off the heel ledge and you'll see people partially disengage when the yellow gap below disappears.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by BraceMaker

[Deanoski]

I was just like Horton used reflex for 20 plus never an issue always keep my stuff   Perfect condition 

replace everything every 2 yrs

 

in 2020 get a new system Blk boot new release with stainless spring

Dock  test every few weeks 

din  5.5 

I had a prerelease at hook up -32 did not end well.

 

the reflex system has a lot of flaws

its ww 2    Release technology 

 

there’s no $ in making a better system so we have shat release tech  

 

 

( all snow ski and prier reflex release all use steel  springs they don’t compress or become weaker over time like stainless springs do.

 

ski reflex at our own risk as the claimer states.

 

 

 

 

 

[Andre]

18 minutes ago, Deanoski said:

 

 

ski (insert any brand of ski or binding here) at our own risk as the claimer states.

 

 

 

 

 

 

More true like this IMO...

Edited July 6, 2023 by Andre