M3 slalom called out for 2 ball - But...

[BraceMaker]

1 ball opener for Andy hickman - Thats gotta be inside.

 

 

 

 

[MattP]

I hate the internet sometimes.

[BraceMaker]

Man they replayed on slow mo and that for sure punted atleast people are watching feel free to delete

[MISkier]

In the slow-mo replay, the buoy is rocketing away from the bottom of the ski. I’m surprised it didn’t dislodge. That is some good bungee/surgical tubing.

[BraceMaker]

Honestly it was only due to the webcast saying here's one for BOS on the previous 2 ball that I was watching closely then this was the very next pass.

[MarkTimm]

We had a similar situation in boys 2 on Wednesday. A couple of pro skiers on site saw a missed buoy and one not onsite saw it on the webcast and sent it to one of the skiers onsite. I was one of the judges all three of us called a full pass. After the group was done which included a runoff that the skier in question was in. We reviewed the tournament video, not the webcast and changed the call to the correct score. It was the right thing to do but what does this mean for the future of webcasts? This happens in golf, a viewer that is a rules geek will see something and call it in. Is this what we want internet judges?

[Adam Caldwell]

As long as there is a way to provide objective quality evidence to the skier in why the decision was made, what is the issue??

[Dirt]

You either got around the buoy or you didn’t. I would not want a score I didn’t actually achieve, especially at another competitors expense.

[jayski]

@MarkTimm just for clarification was there an actual formal protest from a competitor made as per the rule book? Without there shoudl of been NO later video review, the judges made their decision, (right or wrong), and unless there was a "written formal complaint from a competitor" then it should of been left as is

 

per IWWF rules as US nats are RC these are the applicable rules

 

Rule 13 – Protests & Video Challenge

13.01: Who may Protest and How it is done

Protests shall be made to the Chief Judge only by a Team Representative and shall be considered by the Appointed Judges. Protest must be made in writing, must state the reason(s) for the protest and quote the relevant rule number(s), and must be filed as soon as possible, but no later than 30 minutes after the results of the event are announced and the Judges scoring forms are available for inspection.

13.02: Allowable Reasons for Protests

Protests shall be allowed only for failure of the Competition Committee, Officials, Judges and Scorers to comply with these rules and only if this non-compliance with rules has an adverse effect on a skier. No protest shall ever be permitted on a judgment decision by the Judges except as noted in Rule (13.04).

13.03: Protest Submission Procedure

Protests must be accompanied by the approximate equivalent in local currency of US$25. This amount will be refunded if the protest is considered reasonable by the Judges.

 

b) Video Challenge in Slalom for Gates and Buoys when Video is used.

If a Skier/Team Representative believes that there was an error in a score, he may challenge it by notifying the Chief Judge before the next skier goes out (or as soon as is judged practicable by the Judges) and by putting up US$250. The Chief Judge and a designated review Judge will review the video (boat video, or gate video). These two review Judges must be different from the ones who originally made the call. If they both agree on a score, that will be the given score. If they disagree or agree that the video does not clearly overrule the score given by the Judges, then that score will stand. The US$250 will only be returned if the original score was changed.

 

AWSA Rules

 

7.04 Protest Procedure

Protests shall be made to the Chief Judge and shall be considered by the Appointed Judges. Protests must be in writing, give the reason for the protest, be signed by the contestant, and be filed no later than 30 minutes after the results of the event are posted and the judges’ scoring forms are available for inspection. If there is a tie vote of the appointed judges on a protest resolution, the Chief Judge shall break the tie.

7.05 Protests

Protests shall be considered only for failure of the tournament committee or the officials to comply with these rules. No protest shall ever be considered on judgment decisions by the judges except as noted in 10.08F and 11.09D.

 

F. Judge's Scoring Errors:

USA-WWF as a contribution in the skier’s name

1a. If a skier or skier's representative believes that there was an error in the score, he should notify the Chief Judge within 10 minutes of completing his turn and by putting up $100.

1b. All slalom tower configurations may use a form of video review challenge if approved by the Chief Judge and Technical controller prior to the tournament.

The Chief Judge and a designated review judge will review the video (boat and/or gate video). If they both agree on a score, that will be the given score. If they disagree, or agree that the video does not clearly overrule the score given by the judges, then that score will stand.

3.The $100 will be returned only if the original score was changed.

If the funds are not returned to the skier, they shall be forwarded to theUSA-WWF as a contribution in the skier’s name.

 

[dbutcher]

Does it matter whether that B2 was class L? Most were class E.

[UCFskier]

agree with most above. Home observers or ppl on the shore second guessing a judges decision is problematic. like any other sport sometimes the call goes your way (other times not).

[Horton]

Watching the video live it looks like the judges goofed two skiers in a row. The below video shows it. A review of the score books shows that the judges got it right.

 

[skier2788]

He is on a Radar (like me) and a blue steel jacket (like me) I think the video clearly shows he got around that bouy and probly the next 12 or so. ?

[BraceMaker]

@UCFskier - Saying you don't yell at the TV or complain about if someone was down or not?

 

If this is a sport people should be able to have fun with it. For me it was the irony of just how perfect the angle was on the camera.

[Dirt]

@UCFskier I think it’s important at big events to get the call right. If there is clear video evidence it should be used to make sure the best skier on that day wins. There is nothing worse than putting in all the hard work and time only to be robbed of a title by a bad call.

[UCFskier]

bad calls happen in all professional sports.... video is used... Im just saying judges should not be influenced to go to video based on home viewership or individuals on the shore. chief judge should initiate a review based on a grievance

[MarkTimm]

@jayski I honestly don't know if the protest was done correctly or not. I left that to the chief judge. In this case the system worked. To me the bigger question is, do we need a rule change to allow or disallow offsite video challenges?

A big shout out to Jay Bennett and all the officials and volunteers. They did a great job putting on the tournament.

[UCFskier]

that was basically my point @MarkTimm its a slippery slope and honestly our sport has enough built in delays without adding spectator input/ability to sway outcomes.

 

I heard Nats are going awesome!! big fist bump to BENNETTs for stepping up!

[jayski]

@MarkTimm Thanks for the reply, in regards to your question/statement of rule change, as I had posted the rule is in place, unless a competitor formally protests then and only then it should be reviewed, NO couch judges from afar can protest, no random person on shore can protest, it's pretty simple and not much to debate with current rules.

 

Agree that judges sometimes make the wrong call, competitors who KNOW they erred should be honest and forthcoming but we ALL wish for less tech and PIA requirements for tournaments, so maybe we need to not want or wish for MORE ways to micro dissect every part of a tourney.

[Zman]

Don't disagree with some of the discussions above. But, in the end, I am glad that ultimately the correct call was made. I would not want a medal on a bad call. Secondly, no one would want to lose a medal on a bad call.

As inside the ball that the ski was, why didn't any of the judges call for a video review?

What does it take to prompt a quick review in such an important tournament? Is there protocol for this? Honest questions from someone who has not memorized the rule book.

[Horton]

Since no one has said it. This super sucks for Andy hickman. He went all the way to Nationals and scored a 0. He clearly missed it but that does not make it suck any less.

[Zman]

@Horton Agree. Tough break for Andy Hickson, too. :smiley: Tough break for all who missed openers, or scored well under their average. Been there.

[MarkTimm]

@Zman The setup at Nationals this year was for immediate review on all discrepancies. In the case I mentioned, all three of the judges, myself included, missed the call.

[6balls]

I've seen calls whiffed at "record" set ups that no way would be whiffed at that same site with their standard class C set up. It's all about the judging angles for each ball

[Zaneh2oski]

@MarkTimm i was the pro skier that made the protest, and yes I was a skiers representative. I have coached Zach Barkwell all summer who would’ve gotten 5th but ended 4th due to the correction, but I was up there protesting for the boy who got 5th(BG Binkley) Because he deserved the medal. The boy you had his 2 ball pulled told the judges at the end of first pass that he missed two ball.

 

With that being said I also paid the challenge of Brandon Schipner because he tied me with 2@39 but was scored 1.5 @39. This caused me to have to ski a run off for 2nd rather than just taking the medal, but I wouldn’t have felt right not skiing the run off to claim my spot at 2nd.

 

I was just trying to advocate for the sport and the extra video helped make the call right

[Horton]

@Zaneh2oski I didn't see all the videos so I do not exactly follow but thank you for advocating for sportsmanship.

[Zaneh2oski]

@Horton I’m just doing what I can do to make things right for everyone :)

[MarkTimm]

@Zaneh2oski I knew that was you and I had no problem with the process what so ever.

I applaud the sportsmanship, I am in this sport because of people like you. The open men challenge you made proved that point.

The point I was trying to make is that humans make mistakes (three senior judges all missed it) and in this case the process worked to right a wrong.

[klindy]

I was one of the senior judges and in the boat. After reviewing the video it was a miss for sure. I agree with most all of the above and, in the end the process worked.

 

That said, I would make the same call today from the boat with what I saw. As @Zaneh2oski said we’re all humans and make mistakes. Not in anyway trying to make excuses but remember that the boat crew is usually pretty busy, especially right off the dock for the first pass. While working to be as efficient as possible and still not make the skier feel they’re being rushed, there’s a dance between getting the old rope passed to the dock, new rope attached, loose end out from around your feet, boat speed, line length, letter, etc all communicated. The sit down in the boat And get adjusted to the boat is as balanced as possible. Add braces and straps for the bimini top camera cables, SurePath transmitters and cables and, for this event we even had a camera person in the boat which, ironically, along with the great shore coverage and ski-motion replays captured the video broadcast on the webcast to trigger the whole scenario.

 

@MarkTimm is correct that the protocol was to automatically review ANY call where there was a Discrepancy between the judges. Also The configure with both shore judges on the same side of the course requires someone monitor the boat video from the shore. That could have also triggered a review but didn’t happen.

 

The skier is a great kid and fantastic skier who really does personify sportsmanship (there’s a similar story with the same skier at the Southern Regionals a couple years ago). Call it semantics but I differ from @Zaneh2oski slightly in that he didn’t outright say his missed number 2 when he dropped into the water. As boat judge he said he wasn’t sure he made it around #2. Again I didn’t see a reason to question it and the other two judges called 6 on the pass too. So I spent the rest of the 45 second wait time simply saying that we all called 6 and let’s not worry about that now and focus on the next pass. The time for debate is now a a not when the skier has little time to focus. Right or wrong I took the brief opportunity to encourage him and engage in a debate. I am absolutely positive there was no intention of any one involved to do anything except the right thing. The skier wasn’t sure if he rounded the buoy and kept skiing thru the end of the pass as he absolutely should have. We made a call and got it wrong, the system ultimately sorted it out.

 

[MISkier]

I might be getting confused here, so want to double check. @klindy and @MarkTimm, you are commenting on a B2 judging issue, not the M3 issue, correct? Did anybody have any insight into the missed calls on the M3 issue and how the review of that score was initiated?

[Dirt]

@klindy you are an excellent judge and it is not possible to make the correct call every time. The camera angles, glare, spray, distractions and fatigue are a few of the many reasons it is impossible.

The process worked and I don’t think anybody is complaining about the officials. If they are I encourage them to give it a try in a big, high pressure tournament, for no pay.

[klindy]

@MISkier Yes, we're both commenting on the B2 issue

 

@Dirt Thanks for the comments. I'm not getting the sense anyone is complaining either. The pressure on the officials is somewhat different for the competitors. That said, when we're pressed for time with more than 200 pulls in a day even 15 seconds more per pass adds up to approximately a minute a skier. With about 200 pulls you've just added more than 3 hours to the day. The trick is to never make the skier feel rushed. The best compliment any official can get it to be told that no one knew they were there.

[Chef23]

If there was a process followed on site and it caught the error I think that is great. If someone called in watching the video I think that is a slippery slope. I think the judging should stay on site and not be subject to super slo mo replay that might not be applied to every skier.

 

[BraceMaker]

@Chef23 this isn't a call in - this is arm chair spectator ship - something we want the sport to have no?

[APB]

@jayski is 100% right.

[lpskier]

@Zaneh2oski I was the judge that initially called 1.5 on Brandon. We watched the replay in the tower and to us it did not appear that he had a tight line at the line of boat guides, rather that the line was coming tight at that point (and he took a pretty good hit). The call was re-reviewed and Brandon got the two. I think that rewatching in frame by frame review (at the production booth and not in the tower), the review Judge was best able to make the call, particularly where it is hard to determine exactly where the buoy line is. I have to say that the video quality of the TWBC feed was really good, and I’m happy when a score is improved on review, particularly if it was my initial bad call.

 

Also, since the TWBC cameras were “official” cameras of the tournament, in addition to the gate cameras, boat camera and end course, the webcast feed could and was used for video review. Again, their picture quality was excellent.

 

 

[Zaneh2oski]

@lpskier exactly my point. It’s a great tool to have for the skiers sake

[unksskis]

@klindy thank you for all of your hard work at Nationals, and congrats on the new role!

 

Can you give any insight as to the M3 instance that started this thread? Was it reviewed and changed? If so, what initiated the review? When was the score changed, or was it never scored anything but a Zero? How was this communicated to the impacted skier and remaining skiers? Thanks!

[klindy]

Thanks @unksskis I'm going to let someone else answer your question. I wasn't involved with this one at all.

[ToddL]

@unksskis Per the "unofficial" www.waterskiresults.com for M3 slalom, Andy ended up with a score of 0 total buoys.

[Horton]

@unksskis start back at the beginning of thread...

[unksskis]

@ToddL thank you, but those can be changed, not sure when it was posted, or if it was changed. My trick score took over an hour longer to post than most of my competitors.

 

@Horton I'm not sure where the answers to my questions are earlier in the thread outside of your post stating the scores reflected the corrected scores.

 

Why was he pulled 2 more passes? Was there a discrepancy between judges that caused a review, or was it messages from those watching near and far? Since he was pulled 2 more passes, and took the lead with what he thought his score was, how was that communicated to him as well as the skiers remaining? The radio kept calling in times and scores, how is one on the dock to know he was zero'd? Add to it, and I understand how things could get disconnected, but Jeff announcing on the webcast commented some judges scored him a zero (on his 3rd pass), which is tough to align as they would have called in zero's for his first pass.

 

So the question still remains, what initiated a review and how was the score change communicated to skier and remaining skiers? If it was judge discrepancy, that's the answer, it makes sense. Odd it would take two passes to review ball 1 of first pass, but I'm not in the room. Also odd that wasn't communicated to the announcers, as both webcast and on site kept stating he was in the lead/scored 4 at 32'.

 

I'm just trying to better understand this as someone who attended and competed at Nationals.

[klindy]

@unksskis your trick score probably took and hour to score because they were trying to figure out what you did!! :smile: Just teasing Aaron, I know calling tricks live, if you somehow get behind you literally have to wait until a break on the water to catch back up to reviews and sort out scoring.

[unksskis]

@klindy I totally understand the delays, don't want that to be interpreted as me complaining, just giving a comparison. I'm always thankful for the immediate results and the details our scoring advancements have allowed for.

[swbca]

Bad calls by the judges in Tennis are an accepted part of the sport. In part because its easy for a line judge to be wrong and doesn't necessarily decide the winner. Whatever the rules, none of us go into a slalom tournament expecting a bad buoy count to decide our placement. I'm with the those that think the actual skiers performance should count when a video proves the initial recorded score was wrong.

 

I have seen a local favorite in Class C tournaments get the benefit of the doubt. For example, the boat judge may have suspected the buoy miss shown in the screen shot but didn't want to be the only judge to call it because he knows everyone wants to see the skier do his usual Best-in-Region performance. Or, maybe he's everyone's favorite boat driver. This isn't meant to be hard on judges. In additional to being volunteer Judges, they are also the event organizers and workers. They are the backbone of the sport. They are also friends of the competitors and are sometimes tempted to give the benefit of the doubt when there is a close call.

 

The Andy Hickson call could have been one of those sympathetic situations, so let the delayed video correct the record.