Amazing or Uncomfortable?

[skidawg]

how many big IPAs to drive this straight?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHvRUhugWev/?igshid=16e83msfi5ixp

[Than_Bogan]

For the record, I could not run -41 with that boat path. Nor get a score other than 0.

 

But that does seem like a pretty advantageous boat path for somebody who has the top 0.001% talent to take advantage of it!

 

Is there any final word on this tournament? It seems clear that at least some of the scores are not going to survive the review process.

[skidawg]

I know drivers that have been banned for eternity for that kinda path!

[MISkier]

What was the final outcome on this question?

[scoke]

As it stands today, 3 people welched on bets.

 

If ANY of the records would have passed, those folks would be squawking about me paying up. Which I would!

 

(shout out to a bottle of wine I owe to a okeeheelee skier on a lost bet ;) )

[MISkier]

What about the scores not counting or being downgraded?

[The_MS]

Pay up. @scoke is thirsty

[MattP]

All slalom scores were thrown out by IWWF. Even though not all skiers drives were out of tolerance. I hear it was a snowball of many factors. @scoke I owe you beer.

[MISkier]

The AWSA scores still show unchanged, as of a few minutes ago. Are they still under review?

[The_MS]

Any driver sanctions? Like @skidawg said, a few years back they suspended some drivers.

[Jody_Seal]

@The_MS

What should you sanction the driver for?

Going to sanction the driver because he had not by the rules a end course judge in place to move him to the middle? Its true no one was monitoring the end course video... sanction the chief judge for not installing personnel in the correct judging positions.

 

What I see is a poor handling new ski nautique that bow steers due to a full fuel tank in front of the engine.

What I see is a driver with no help from the end course operator or chief driver or anybody for that matter.

 

Just so everyone knows the tournament was desansctioned due to overwhelming issues that had nothing to do with driving.

So go ahead and man up put your name on it if you want to call out foul on the driver.

 

Like or not decisions are being made on rules and policy in this sport by anal people that live in bubbles In their own little perfect world. Some of them need to get out into the real world of the sport and drive some of the new crap that seems to find their way into higher end tournaments only because that's all thats available to pull some of these events.

 

 

Let's just go ahead and keep eating our volunteers!!

 

[Horton]

@Jody_Seal If we live in a world of ranking lists then standards matter. Even if the Pros find a better system the rest of us will still live by ranking lists and need a level playing field.

 

FYI the scores look to still be on the USA WS list but not on the IWWF Dynamic list. I am curious what will be in on the Standard IWWF standings list .... When will that be published anyway?

[brettmainer]

@scoke, I don't welsh on bets. I just don't have the time or interest to keep current on the fallout from a tournament I didn't ski in several months ago on the opposite coast. Now that I know you won your Zima, I will make sure you get it. PM me and we can work out the details.

 

+1 for @Jody_Seal comment. That boat looks like it was skating on ice.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@scoke my bet was for a systemic or intentional driving issue, so I hope you are not counting me as one of those welching. As Jody stated "the tournament was desansctioned due to overwhelming issues that had nothing to do with driving."

 

From Oct last year: "@scoke I'm in, but the bet is you have to drink the Zima when you lose! I'll even cut you some slack and make it 2 sittings for a 6 pack each - with video of course.

 

This is for a systemic or intentional issue. The boat getting pulled slightly out on a buoy or 2 is allowable.

 

If there is a systemic or intentional issue, I'll send you 12 of the IPA of your choice."

 

[ForrestGump]

On a completely separate topic.... that Nautique looks like it's the width of a oil tanker transiting the locks in the Panama Canal.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield

All three overall records that were set ( and declined ) at this event and the the following weekend had out of tolerance slalom boat path cumulatives. It appears that the other tech issues overshadowed the boat path issues or it was perhaps more politically convenient to use the tech issues as the reason to downgrade the event.

 

I am not saying you welched* on your bet but there was clearly a boat path issue. Systemic or intentional? That is murky. I am not sure if you should send @Scoke his beer or not but it would be false to say there was not a path issue.

 

(* I will vouch for you that if you thought you owed Scoke the beer you would send it. )

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton @scoke This entire thead started with nothing more than speculation, 2nd and 3rd hand info and wild ass assertions simply because there were some really impressive scores - all from skiers who had performed to that level in prior events. Is it unusual that so many were consistently nearing PB's in multiple rounds? Perhaps, but I have seen that type of thing many times with good conditions, drivers and the pyschological effect on skiers when a few good performances happen is very real. Should it be looked at? Sure, but claiming that the event was not "legit" soley on the basis of the scores is not a valid argument.

 

Scoke made some pointed, but very valid challenges to the "everything is legit" assertions, but he had no more information than anyone else. Yes, he can be cantankerous. The fun bets were on to several levels, but I'm not sure any criteria was agreed on.

 

But "MY" bet with Scoke was for something systemic or intentional.

 

Then there was a total of TWO boat path videos that were clearly way out of tolerance. And records denied due to boat path. The level of tolerance for world records is probably an order of magnitude tighter than those 2 path videos. Over the last 10 years what is the ratio of denied vs approved records based on boat path? Half? A quarter? Even if the path looks good to the casual observer, when they start measuring, its not unusual for it to be "out of tolerance". Is a denied record evidence of anything systemic or intentional? "Other tech issues that overshadowed boat path"? Ok, were those intentional or just plain screwups?

 

So if there is evidence of systemic or intentional malfeasance, show it and I'll gladly pay up.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield you are highlighting one of the challenges of the sport. How do you prove systemic or intentional malfeasance? Unfortunately there is no way to prove anything on the subject.

[rico]

If we care about our sport, we should expect and enforce a standard of excellence.

If anyone decides to organize a L / R tournament, they should ensure all rules are followed. It is a lot of work and commitment, but nobody is forced to put up such events. That is why we have Class C alternatives.

The governing body should have a way to validate tournaments and ensuring all required tasks were followed..

[The_MS]

My comment was made as a sarcastic response to previous sanctions being placed on a driver. Some how they were able to blame that driver for out of tolerance paths. I wonder what is so different?

[9400]

Driving -41 is hard, really really hard, driving it perfect is even harder. I have no idea what it feels like on the handle end but from the drivers side it is a mix of anticipation and reaction. Many of the drivers only get to practice driving it (-41) in tournaments and usually in a foreign to them boat. When the skier turns the backside of a buoy at -41 or -43 the boat will get pulled to that buoy side (unless the anticipation is perfect) then the driver is trying to put the boat back center, if he misses center he will either be with the skier or against the skier. My preference is that if I am not center ( which is the idea) I would rather favor the skier...I would guess most drivers feel that way. So when they are off at ultra short rope it usually favors the skier. Not sure how many drivers can pull skiers through -41 but the list is short, sometimes it doesn't look pretty. Driving -41 is nothing like driving -38. I don't know who the driver is here (actually I might) But he/she has probably been in the boat for an hour or more locked in to giving each skier the best pull they know how to give. I know there are drivers who make -39 look like -38, I don't think the video above reflects that.

[rico]

@9400 you are missing the point.

 

Driving 41 is hard, yes, but if one wants to be that driver, and is serious about it, they drive and drive and drive and watch videos of their boat path and they get better and better and one the best drivers. I disagree about the boat foreign to them statement. If you are driving in a R tournament where athletes may set records, you are usually familiar with all boats. If you never drove the exact boat used in the event, come early, pull some practice and get to know the boat.

I believe this is common practice.

 

Now even if the boat path is not good, someone should be watching the driver all the time. They should give feedback at the end of each pass and tell them to adjust their driving if necessary. If the path is bad, a change of driver or a re ride may be given.

 

Looking at the drivers at this tournament, I don’t think drivers skills were an issue.

[Horton]

The IWSF October List is published and none of the scores from 21S034R are included. The scores are still listed as Class R on the USAWS site if that matters.

 

The official reason for why the scores were excluded from the international list is that the end course cameras were not set up within spec.

[Cam]

The official reason for why the scores were excluded from the international list is that the end course cameras were not set up within spec.

Nothing has changed then since JB's world record at the Malibu in France was disallowed for the same-ish reason and the French/Europeans were lambasted for it, just sayin >:)

[mike_mapple]

@9400 I agree I have pulled quite a few people into / through 41, and it really comes down to knowing the skiier IMO, pulling my Dad, Nate, CP and Jeff through 41 each is a totally different pull, knowing when to be ready for the pull was the biggest challenge the first few times I pulled my dad into 41 pretty sure i took off a few boat gates, after a few years, I was confident pull anyone in it.

[9400]

@mike_mapple I know you know. The first person I ever pulled through 41 was your dad, and it was the only time I ever drove him. It was when he brought you to our site for a tournament because he said you wanted to ski there. He wasn't even planning on skiing but we talked him into it for our own selfish reasons.

[lpskier]

@9400 Richard, how many 41’s do you have now?

[9400]

@lpskier I quit counting after about 10, Terrance and I were talking about it last year I was guessing well over 200, 98% of those are from @adamhcaldwell . I asked Adam a few years ago and he said he stopped counting at 50. Since then there are multiple days of 3, 4, 5 in a row. Just to be clear I assume you are talking about driving, my personal count on running them behind the boat is very easy to keep up with :smile:

By the way he runs them behind at least 2 others at our site. The real question is how many has Adam run?

[lpskier]

@9400 Does Meg have you yet?

[Horton]

can we get any farther off topic?

[9400]

My apologies. done

[Horton]

@9400 thanks. especially in this section of the website I really try to keep things on topic.

[Jody_Seal]

Amazing or uncomfortable or down right cheating??!!

 

Watching a tournament on Youtube that apparently was yesterday feb 20 2021out of New Zealand. I caught some jump action as they were live streaming boat video from the pylon for the jump event.

I was amazed when the boat judge reached up and pulled on the rope for a slack rope jump landing by a lesser jumper (maybe 60') and did it again on the next jump for this skier

Now I am not as smart as many in this sport but is that not helping the skier score a jump?

 

So if it is helping the skier score points is that not cheating on behalf of the officials? should not the chief judge be aware of this situation?

Should the jump event in this tournament be downgraded do to this practice by the boat judge?

 

Hypothetically if this skier was an overall skier where as jump was the weak event for this skier, that little help with the rope slack by the boat judge could have pushed up the skier on the all mighty "Rankings List" in overall!! maybe even pushing out a legitimate score by another skier somewhere else in the world!!

 

 

Amazing?

Uncomfortable?

Or down right cheating??

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

@Jody_Seal Was the event held as Class L or above?

 

Helping and encouraging young junior skiers is a good thing. Helping in such a way that it will impact a national or international rankings list is bad. There are shades of grey.

 

We as adults must make judgments about what is appropriate. Unfortunately, our sport is not always known for excess amounts of sound judgment.

[Jody_Seal]

wont know about class level of tournament but i bet it shows up on the iwwf list of scores for 2021..So probably class L as most of the rest of the world does not hold tournaments class C like we do..

[Horton]

I am super conflicted about this one. Encouraging junior skiers is critical to the health of the sport. Operating outside the rules in a Class L is critically negative for the sport. This may be an example of why Class C or F events are important.

[Jody_Seal]

@Horton

Ok ill bite! what is grey in the sport? rules are cut and dry....Well for the most part!

So in retrospect why is it ok to help a jumper in competition by pulling in the slack on a landing for a skier by the boat judge but not ok to put in a little swerve help in for same event entrant in slalom by the boat driver??

Junior or no junior does that matter?

 

[Horton]

@Jody_Seal

I 100% agree with your point. I guess I get a little squishy when we are talking about juniors. In the end, the rules are cut and dry.

 

[kurt]

@Jody_Seal

Jump is slightly different I would say. If the boat is "out of course" then there is grey area to be used. For example I help out out at a number of collegiate tournaments and when pulling a B jumper out of course and they ask for a collegiate narrow, I am going to "help" by driving slightly away to take slack out. Much the same as your example above. However my feeling is once you are "in course" there is no grey area. So I agree with @Horton to a point.

 

The excitement of being a part of someone becoming addicted to jump is the cost of bending the rules maybe? The rule for driving out of course is you are to maintain a straight path the same as in course I believe? I am sure someone will excoriate me as is per usual on any boat path comments on BOS!

No one is going to bump their nops score with a 28' jump.

My feeling is if you can get someone hooked on 3 event , you have them for life.

[Horton]

@kurt I am 100% in agreement because you are talking about collegiate. It is the real grass roots of the sport and is ( mostly ) inconsequential to nationals and international competition.

 

I think there could to be a could bit of fudge factor at any skiers first few tournaments. If these scores have any impact in national or international rankings then ZERO fudge factor.

[The_MS]

So what happens if someone comes out of 6 ball with some slack and the boat is already out of the end gates so the driver let’s up a bit so the skier keeps his elbows intact? Time with ZO will be spot on.

[Horton]

@The_MS

The new international rule for path is below. See http://iwsf.com/dbheadlines/headlinefiles/WorldWSCMinutes%2017_02.pdf

 

I would assume if boat path must be straight until the skier is out the gates then the speed should be constant until the skier is out the gates.

 

8.15: Boat Path

The Boat shall follow, as closely as possible, a straight path on the centerline of the course. This path shall be maintained from the entrance pre-gates and continue for as long as the skier is in the course.

[Chad_Scott]

@horton and @ms you may find it very interesting that the exit gate deviation is not measured for any record or anything else. Pretty sure sure path isn’t measuring it either.

[Horton]

@Chad_Scott this is a cut and past from the IWWF Waterski Council Releases meeting minutes

8.15: Boat Path

The Boat shall follow, as closely as possible, a straight path on the centerline of the course. This path shall be maintained from the entrance pre-gates and continue for as long as the skier is in the course.

 

So measured or not the boat is to stay straight. IDK if there is a specific rule about speed (I assume there is )

[rico]

@Chad_Scott I confirm. Surepath stops at 6 ball.

 

@Horton this is an example of screwed up rule. If that is the case, why not include exit gate at least

[ALPJr]

I saw some video of a tournament this weekend that is posted on the NZWSA website. What I saw looked like it may have been a grassroots event or fun type of division.

[Horton]

Back to the original subject of this thread. Below is a link to the report from the IWWF Waterski Council Releases meeting minutes.

 

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=B4DEA85B7C414A20!90318&ithint=file%2cxlsx&authkey=!AHFtlDf-FWElPIs

[Chad_Scott]

@Horton i understand the rule. But if we are proceeding and relying on these systems to determine the re ride I am just telling you the gate is not tracked. Along with anything between the zones

[Horton]

@Chad_Scott understood

[The_MS]

My point is that there are lots of ways to help a skier out. None should be allowed at any level.