Shortline guys - How do you train or think differently?

[Horton]

If you have skied at a high level for many years you likely have some training ideas that are out of the norm. So what do you do different?

 

[Terry Winter]

Bueller

[Horton]

Ok I will start.

 

So my normal high score is 2 @ 39. I have been to 3 but not much and never been to 4. When I am really skiing good I run 38 quite a bit but it is never easy.

 

One of the things I do that I think is unusual is I will occasionally skip 38 and go from 35 to 39. The idea is that after running a 38 I am both amped up and drained. Taking shots at 39 when I am fresh helps me see the problems with my gate more clearly and become more comfortable at one ball. Most of the times I have gotten to 3 ball at 39 are when I have skipped 38.

 

Clearly it would be a bad idea to do this all the time but maybe 1 ride in 10 it really works for me.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

I have no clue what other guys have done, but here's a couple things I've had luck with.

 

Ski every set with a purpose. Try and do your learning/thinking off the water. Then go out just to "test" your idea/theory/or change on the water. Don't show up to the dock just to 'go for a ski'. Its okay to have sets that are specifically to play around with movements, mechanics, fins, ski changes etc, where the "score' shouldn't be the focus at all. Just stay at passes your comfortable with and learn what you need to until things are feeling rock solid.

 

As long as you keep learning, you scores will keep going up.

 

When it comes to the training for scores& tournaments, I have had success doing the following.

 

To fully "master" a pass, I feel like you need to be able to have the control/ability of running it repeatedly, least 3 to 10 in a row. Not everyday obviously, but it should be a goal.

 

With @Horton for example...I would say make sure you have plenty of sets going straight up the line (don't repeat passes - no matter how ugly one might have been) specifically to play around at get some looks/practice at 39. But maybe every 5th set (if your on a setup that you can run 38 with) try to run 38 multiple times. Start with 3. Then 5. Then 7. Then go for 10. I'd say if you can run a pass 8-10times in a row you have it figured out. It will help you bring more to the table when you get to 39 once you recover.

 

Running repeat passes builds massive confidence, its great for strength/conditioning, and knowledge about how to run the pass.

 

For me, once I could run the pass below my hardest pass 10 times in a row I would start to see the end of my hardest pass at least once in a while.

 

[JackQ]

Dont know what is optimal, but before I got too old last year and had to reduce speed, I would typical go 28,32,35,38,39 (goal to always get to 4), then go back to 38 and try to run 2 38s.

 

Then every 3rd or 4th set, skip 38 as you are doing, really work on 39 fresh, and then go to 38 and run it once. My thought is after 39, work on what has holding you back on your 38 pass, and it should feel relatively easy after 39.

 

One constant is I have to force my self to ski narrow and not get wide and turn on the buoy line. As soon as I get a bit wide at 39 and too far up on the boat, I am done. I can get away with it at 38, but makes it much harder or causes a miss. Watch the skiers that run 39 every time and they seem to be within 4-6" of the buoy line every single time.

[AdamCord]

Don't listen to me. I haven't skied the same ski/fin/binding setup twice in a row in 10 years.

[Horton]

@AdamCord imagine how good your scores would be if I took your tools away for a few months.

[AdamCord]

@Horton we’ll never know because I'd get bored and quit

[santangelo]

When I'm skiing well, I'm typically at @Horton 's level described above. About 90% of my passes are nothing but 32's trying to refine every aspect of the pass. I start and end there most of the time. When I feel I've fixed some things, I'll run nothing but 35's. Start and end there, for about 6 passes. For me, this exposes my flaws, then I can go back to 32 and work on those problem areas.

 

Off the water, closing your eyes and visualizing the pass is, potentially, more important.

You'd think you could run perfect passes in your mind, but that's not the case at all. I'm very visually oriented, so my flaws skiing are highlighted even more when visualizing.

[Horton]

@santangelo why all the work at 32? I do the same but at 35. My logic is that 35 is the shortest pass I can run with confidence. My logic is that if my 35s are as good as they can me then it is time for me bang away at 38.

[santangelo]

@Horton , some of it is just habit. I really enjoy making effortless passes to drill it into my muscle memory. I should ski more 35's if my body is willing. My main point is, I think there is a lot of value in perfecting your previous passes and not drill on the one you can't make more than, say, 25% of the time (I'm no where near that currently).

 

Of course, this could also be why I'm not skiing 38 consistently too :)

[The_MS]

The down side to not getting lots of looks at the next pass is that you don’t get a chance to see the new line/path that it takes to run the pass. If you run 5 35s in a row, you will then be trying to see that same path at 38 and you can’t. Get to your hardest pass and work it 1 ball at a time until you run 6. The more looks and tries you can get, the sooner you will run it.

[Horton]

@The_MS my logic is: If I run up the line every set then I am always practicing failing. If I spend 1/2 or 3/4 of my rides working on "the hardest pass I can always run" then I am building skills.

[The_MS]

I agree not every set but you need to get as many looks at your hardest pass as you can. Get shots at them when your strong and not strung out from running a lot of passes prior.

[Horton]

@twhisper Bueller

[Horton]

@The_MS

I totally agree. I “try” to make rides about back to backs or about running up the line and not a mix of the the 2.

[Terry Winter]

It's such a tough sport. We get such limited reps before we wear out physically, and we can't do it right even if we're trying. A kid on a skateboard will ride all day, every day and gain such a feel for it without too much thought going in or over-analyzing. The whole deal is that we need to be doing it correctly and repeating those movements in order to gain improvements. What I tend to see is skiers doing it wrong, repeating those wrong moves/ideas/timing, and getting those things completely hard-wired in so that they'll never be able to get out of those ruts.

 

One of the toughest things about skiing is that what we feel can be so different than what is actually happening. When we feel comfortable that just means that we're doing it the same way we always do it. Sometimes we'll get something "right" but it feels so awkward that we don't persist in pursuing it.

 

A good coach can be great, but it's hard for anybody to have a consistent coach and I believe one of the worst things in skiing is that everybody wants to help. The random guy in the boat is always willing to give his advice, and whether he is right or wrong the worst thing for an athlete is getting mixed messages and always trying to achieve them.

 

Video is under-used. I make a habit of trying to film every set. I watch my skiing every day, and when I go out to ski I have a plan of something I want to feel. I believe the more we film and review the more we can integrate the feelings that we experience with the reality of what is actually happening on the water. When we can do this then we stand a better chance at making improvements.

[jimski]

@twhisper 100% agree with the random guy theory.

I try to do something distracting while their talking. Good coaching is priceless.

 

@Horton isn't this part of doing volume sets.

In the winter and early spring I’ll do the same pass over and over until I’m at 90- 100%

Working on muscle memory and try to practice good habits. Gates, timing, positioning exc

I’m by no means a short line skier, but sure trying hard to get there.

[6balls]

If I ski short a lot, I get amped. Then everything is amped right from the opener next time out. It's not something I intend, it's just there. So even if I go down the line and take gate shots at a pass I can't run...I run an opener to finish. It runs like a joke, totally relaxed, wide/early, and just seems to reset my brain so that I come out relaxed next time out. I ski better relaxed. For me multi-round tourneys are harder that way...I generally ski best the first round and go deep. Second/third round for whatever reason I come out hammering right from my opener--basically over-skiing...drivers always love me taking them out of the course on 2 and 4 on openers (not really).

It may not be an issue for others...just something I deal with. Despite being aware of it, was tough for me to shake mentally.

[lpskier]

Can you imagine if you were playing golf and the other guy in the cart wanted to coach you every shot?

[Horton]

@6balls Crazy. Going back down the line never works for me.

[6balls]

@horton not for everyone, just throwing it out there. I don't even go back down the line, I go back to the beginning. After abusing myself taking shortline shots instead of getting in the boat I'm like hey, throw it on 28 or 32(mood dependent), and I'll run one more. I finish on a relaxed, successful, dominated pass. For some reason if I do that, I come out calm even days later whereas if I don't I come out hammering from the start. Something subconscious going on for me.

[ski6jones]

I often like to finish on an easier but it's never my opener.

[brettmainer]

I also often go back to -32 for the last pass. Disclaimer: nobody should copy what I do, I have gotten no better in the last 15yrs. However, the bad habits that make -38 hard for me are also there at -32. After being punished by them at 38, I often go back to 32 to work on them. The results say it isn’t working for me, but it makes sense to me to do that. Also, I am tired by that point and another try at 38 or 39 isn’t going anywhere and I don’t want to waste the gas going back to the dock.

 

Similar to Caldwell’s thinking, most springs I try to run 35 ten consecutive times (over several sets) before shortening. I do that partly for “mastering” the pass but mostly to make sure I am in ski shape so I don’t prematurely hurt my elbows or back at the shorter line.

 

Shifting gears to the Nate at 34 thread. Obviously Nate is better at skiing than the rest of us and he has a singular ability to make even 39 look easy. But, I feel that if I could ski 32 as effortlessly as he does it would carry over to the harder passes. I, and a lot of other folks, pull a shade too long at the easier passes, which makes them physically harder than they need to be. I need to concentrate on making the speed before the wakes and maintaining connection to the buoy rather than adding more at the second wake. At 32 I can work on that and whatever else I am trying to fix. At 35 and shorter I often find myself turning and holding on to whatever I have, which usually just reinforces 40yrs of bad habits.

[Horton]

For years I have worked to make 32s & 35s as low energy as possible with the idea that if these passes are as light and easy as possible then 38 should be less frantic. When I say light I still want as much space as possible.

 

In the last few weeks I am working on some new stuff that makes every pass more intense but my scores are also darn good for this time of year. Now I am wondering how important it is to make my early passes super light.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton that’s not all that surprising!

 

I make my earliest passes overly intense, overly wide, overly fast behind the boat and try to make as much space as possible with as much swing speed as possible - and try to get it all under control at the same time. Im open to mistakes here and just try to correct/recover from them at line length that I know I can get away with bobbles and mistakes at.

 

I think too it also awakens the nervous system to already be firing at maximum output prior to getting into short line. That way I can start to back off the crazy insanity and put more focus on control and timing when the rope gets shorter and I’m not trying to “step it up” when I get to my hardest pass.

 

Trying to ski “light” and “easy” doesn’t teaching you anything about the shorter ropes - it just looks smoother. Unfortunately style points are no awarded in this sport

[6balls]

@adamhcaldwell one of the coolest posts ever. The great Andy Mapple said as much when I skied with him. On my opener he was trying to explain something and I'm like "you want more?" and he was like "Yeah--pull harder!" I give it hell behind the boat and he is the first to say on my opener to give more juice.

[Adam Caldwell]

@6ball - I've always pulled reallyhard, and skiers all around me always gave me shit for it.

 

In 2010 I was fortunate to have be down in Orlando skiing with Cord and Andy one winter. Andy watched me ski one set. First thing he says to me "You need to PULL HARDER!" @AdamCord Cord almost fell out of the boat laughing.

 

Then I got to watch both Andy and Parish from the boat. Seeing them in live action made it painfully obvious how much power they put down behind the boat. It looks like nothin watching them on video because they're so "still" when the do it as they have mastered how to "control" what's happening when the body and the ski are loaded up. I went home and started pulling through the wakes as hard as I possibly could on every wake crossing. I was a mess for the first few sets..but then started to figure out the sensation of "load & release" and it translated into skiing about 5 feet wider then I normally did.

 

I think it was about two weeks later I ran 39 for the first time, and was able to back it up several days in a row.

 

Waterskiing at shortline is not easy. You have to develop strength you don't yet have, without a way to 'train' for it per say. So being able to put 120% effort down (at the risk of looking a little sloppy and out of control), on passes you know you can run, is single handedly the most productive form of training you can do on the water.

 

Now I am at a point I can be pretty light on the line and run some smooth light and easy shortline passess...but I rarely do, mainly because I'm trying to master the next pass.

[AdamCord]

To further @adamhcaldwell ’s point I still vividly remember the first time I rode in the boat and watched Parrish ski. I was BLOWN AWAY at how powerful he was. I had been watching CP on video for years and it just doesn’t come through on video. My initial thought watching him from the boat was that he was either going to break the rope or pull the pylon out of the boat :D

 

I also started skiing a lot harder after that and started running 38 soon after.

[Horton]

I believe you guys but I'm conflicted

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton - When you can learn to run 39, I guarantee you can go back and run 35 BEAUTIFULLY and EASILY.

 

Im not sure that going lighter and smoother at 35 will not help you learn 39, or even improve your 38.

[6balls]

The hard part is a lot of us can generate, but the more energy generated the more skillful management on the back side is required. The great skiers IMO are the ones that can manage that energy on the other side. For other skiers that kind of speed/load/energy becomes a shit show out to the ball.

Tough sport, keeps us coming back.

[BlueSki]

Do you guys think that so many people are told to be light on the line and do the opposite of Caldwell because when they do go all out, they simply can’t handle it and their pass turns to disaster? In other words, is being “light on the line” used frequently because there is a need to calm a skier down so they can maintain their body position and work on the fundamentals?

[6balls]

@BlueSki i think so. I can generate more than I can handle so historically I’ve tried to be lighter for longer. Never got me to elite just pretty good. Having said that most who watched me figured I pulled pretty hard even when trying to be lighter.

[BlueSki]

This discussion, as well as others, makes me think that as a sport our “every guy in the boat wants to help” has perhaps telephone gamed how we coach, talk, and maybe even ski (see Horton’s comments about technique focus and now effort). The technique discussion seems to have dominated to the point where some may focus on technique so much that we forget effort because technique is a more complex, interesting, and a longer conversation. As I think about this, I believe the reality is that as we start to improve technique, we need to amp up effort while risking technique. It’s a balancing act, and one I need to figure out and clearly the root of Horton’s post.

 

I could be wrong, I have been to purple, but not through it, so I defer to others... and I will probably learn something. This is the part where I tag @adamhcaldwell, @AdamCord, and @twhisper to ensure that I learn something.

[Adam Caldwell]

@BlueSki - I think that’s a fantastic way to put it!

[BlueSki]

Thanks, and for the record, I wasn’t called out by Mapple for not leaning hard enough when I skied with him, although I’m sure that was embedded in his coaching. I was called out by Helena Kjellander, so much more embarrassing.

[matthewbrown]

I agree, you can always pull harder just be ready to deal with the fruits of your labor.

[Chet]

Once again I think Mr.Caldwell is so on point but that is no surprise as he is one of the baddest cats on the planet.

I too was the recipient of Andy’s go harder comment. I was somewhat argumentative with him referring to my ability to end up on the beach if I did what he said but there was a caveat he said go hard but don’t move. When you are perpendicular to a 3000 lb. boat and you can hold it without collapsing or being pulled apart you are going to be going pretty hard. To then see how easy or smooth the best can make it look reminds me of watching a world class gymnast performing an iron cross. The cross is both pure power and incredible technique. But when being watched by the casual observer they make it look easy in fact they are so proficient they might might choose to wink at you in the audience making it look even easier. But don’t underestimate a real iron cross it takes power, skill and training.

To Andy’s point they do call it the “still “ rings. If the guy performing the cross was shaking and wiggling all around it would immediately look more difficult. As many have already eluded to in this thread in different ways it is a wicked set of skills that are not easy to master but smart high quality training can take you far. With all that said it is still an extreme event not too be taken lightly or attempted haphazardly.

 

[Horton]

Ok I believe you guys. The one thing I can not wrap my head around is load at centerline. Part of my obsession with making passes "early but light" is that when I have am less intense at the centerline I am more in control leaving the second wake.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Chet - great post! The Iron cross is NO JOKE! And I appreciate the mention.

 

Something to consider for anyone out there playing around with these ideas...

 

The energy needed to effectively cast your mass and the ski wide of the balls and back under the line at 22/28/32 is very different then the amount of energy needed for 35/38/39/41....each of which feels exponentially harder as you learn them.

 

Amping up the intensity level at those earlier lines might make you feel a little fast and out of control - as you literally are putting in MORE energy then necessary - but you will likely see the fruits of your labor at the shorter lines sooner then you think.

 

Applying more load/intensity forces you to think faster, move faster, react faster and manage things in a way that will reflect what is going to naturally happen as the rope gets shorter. You might feel a completely new sensation in how your body connects to the line and how the ski releases out from under you. Often times these are great ways to help you figure out small tweaks to your setup that could make things better as the rope gets shorter.

 

Personally, my big take away from the Mapple School of hard knocks is; You'll never see the end of the next pass if you don't go beyond your comfort level with aggressiveness and intensity at the ones you can run. - His advice continues to hold true for my own skiing almost daily, and had he never made that comment to me, I'm not sure I would have had the breakthroughs that I've had over the last 8+ years.

[keithh2oskier]

@adamhcaldwell never thought of it like that. Gonna add a note to my ski tip as a reminder.

[Horton]

Shit ok I am finally on board.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton - To touch on the "load to centerline"......

 

I'm not sure that looking to 'increase' load into centerline should be the objective. However, Increasing our leverage into centerline is!

 

Getting the absolute most out of our body position/posture to produce leverage over the skis edge, (in addition to a solid connection to the centripetal force) should minimize the 'perceived load' while potentially increasing "actual load" the boat will feel.

 

I encourage skiers to use the entire distance from the point of hookup to leaving the second wake to continually improve body position. We cant hit it perfect at the hook-up every time, but trust that you'll have about 80' of linear travel to correct and improve it into CL. I'd recommend that even if you finish a turn in rock solid form, try to get taller, more connected, more anchored and move leveraged before you leave the second wake just to exaggerate it and gain feel and control overtime.

 

Remember, we don't care about being physically pulling harder "against the line". Its not a tug of war. Its a pendulum swing. Line load should be the by-product of solid body position at the bottom of the swing by means of maximizing the COMs leverage over the edge of the ski, and COM connection to the line.

 

Creating more leverage over the skis edge will produce more load on the line, without it feeling overly taxing (given body allignment is solid). The focus of energy output needs to go more into working for optimal body position on top of the ski then it does merely pulling the boat directly backwards. The latter is useless and unproductive. The former will produce more load on the line, yet feel easier, and produce greater results.

[BlueSki]

@horton just spitballing here, but how about posting a video of a 32 or a 35 where you try to be light on the line and which you probably already have, and then a video - even if from a few sets later - of trying to take a more intense leverage into centerline? You are a bit farther into your season than most of us and it sounds like you are about to change your focus.

[MarkM]

Ski faster

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell okay now that I could not agree with more

[MichaelWiebe]

This is a super informative thread. I’m in between long and short line lengths and struggling to stabilize 35’ off. The insights shared here will help a lot. Thanks again.

[RGilmore]

As I understand it, "lean", "load", and "speed" are all closely related one to the other. For example, for any given lean angle, the faster your ski is moving [in the direction of travel] the less will be the load on your body. This was explained quite some time ago through illustrations posted by one (or possibly both) of the Adams.

 

No doubt Caldwell can explain this far better than I, but my understanding is that for any given measure of time a certain amount of water must pass under the upcourse edge of your ski - and that water passing "sideways" under your ski amounts to drag, which equals more load on your body. So the less time you spend at the point of the highest volume-per-second of water passing under your ski, the less will be the load you feel on your arms/body.

 

And let me just add, I hope that's not as confusing a concept to understand as it is to read. Oh, also, I could be wrong.

[6balls]

@adamhcaldwell one of your better explanations