Are Entry Fees going up for 2021?

[Horton]

I just submitted the sanction for the NorCal MasterCraft BallOfSpray Cash Prize and added $25 for the boat owners. What is everyone else doing?

[lpskier]

Also, if it’s a record event all skiers will need a $25 competitor license from IWWF. One time purchase for the year.

 

AWSA is considering implementing a reimbursement for boat owners at tournaments.

[lpskier]

Maybe I didn’t say that well. AWSA is considering having tournament organizers pay some amount to promo boat owners to compensate for boat usage at the tournament.

[Horton]

@lpskier i am just ahead of the curve

[RichardDoane]

we added $15 to the entry fees to help cover costs of towboats, 30 skiers x $15 = $450. additional to cover boat expenses

[Jody_Seal]

So what we are being told is that unless you pay the international extortion fee you can't enter a class E L and R tournament?

Or if you do have paid the extortion fee you still have to pay the extra cost that one would not pay for a class C?

 

[The_MS]

We figured an extra 20 but still need to get boat owners to pay the money to

[lpskier]

@Jody_Seal I’m not a fan of fees either, but in this case the fee is used to host Worlds. As you know, in the past, Worlds hosts were obligated to pay several hundred thousands of dollars for the privilege of hosting, sometimes leading to less than desirable sites. By taking the financial burden off sites and shifting it in small measure to skiers, the hope is that more, better sites will step up to host Worlds. I think this is a very good move, so in this case, it’s a fee I’m happy to pay.

 

PS. Your Florida Federation dues are up first of the year. ;-)

[The_MS]

Where does my Florida Fed money go to? What do they do with it?

[dave2ball]

So why should I be forced to pay a fee when I’m not going to ski worlds? If the worlds are mostly

team orientated is USA waterski putting more money for better ski sites? Who and how is this going to be collected? Putting the burden on the competitors who won’t go to the worlds just doesn’t seem right.

I’m all for additional money for promo boats and so forth but this just seems like another nail in the coffin.

[Horton]

@dave2ball you can ski class C.

[lpskier]

@The_MS States and Jr. Development mostly.

[kc]

The competition license to enter record tournaments can be purchased per event for $7, or $25 for an annual license.

[Kelvin]

@Jody_Seal why would someone have to pay the IWWF fee if they only want to enter the US based Class E? Is that going to be an option?

[Horton]

@Kelvin I know Class E is still technically a thing but how often is it used?

[MattP]

E is not included in the IWWF fees. It has dropped in use mainly used at Regionals and Nationals in some divisions for national records. We may see a resurgence in skiers skiing in E. But it’s only $25 I don’t see may people flinching at this.

[lpskier]

I prefer to trick E rather than L, just in case I have a fall out of course.

[Kelvin]

@Horton, around Texas most places like to do the 6 round weekends. Saturday is a 3 rounder with the first 2 rounds as L and round 3 as E. Sunday is the same. That satisfies the IWWF rule that there can be no more than 4 rounds of L in a weekend at the same place.

[dave2ball]

@Horton I see you have not skied much in Florida. I agree with Jody Seal.

[Horton]

@dave2ball I am aware the Florida has its own special problems

[lpskier]

@Kelvin FYI, under rule 24, your average can only take one score from a site for the year. So if you PB at the mentioned site Saturday in L, and you tie it Sunday in L, only one score counts for your average.

[klindy]

@lpskier true but if you PB in the 2nd or 3rd round that score counts. Which is why skiers typically try to maximize the opportunities.

[Jody_Seal]

Many have witnessed the blatant wastefulness that goes on with the iwwf. Most of the cost of holding a world championship rests on the site holding the event. Yes things have changed in recent as to how much and what the host site is responsible for. In the real near past a host site would have to pony up almost a quarter million big money to even be considered. Hence some of the crappy locations that some of these worlds were held at.

Commendable that finally the powers to be recognized that it weren't in the best interest nor health of these athletes to compete in open water conditions. But wait!!! Where did all that $$$$$$$$ income go ?????

I seen these guys in action that jetset around the globe doing business as representatives of iwwf schmoozing the powers to be in the toad world of watersports.

Now it goes back to the question to will entry fees go up?

 

Somebody already pointed out that "Florida has its own special problems" that is true.

However Florida also as a state federation provides the highest Amount record capable tournaments then any other state a nd more then any other country. So yes Florida has its own special problems as the demand for world level "competition " nearly every weekend of the year creates friction within the the federation for reasons that are numerous.

 

@The_MS proceeds from the federation membership goes to many programs. Programs such as junior development, state championship support,

Hall of fame needs and functions, officials development, stipends for national officials and many other state federation buisness needs. No one has yet challenged this yearly membership request fee as we will make you feel bad if you don't pay. But from all that I know there is really no teeth if you don't.

 

Will the entry fees go up ? Of course they will and not only will the fees go up but the overall cost of the sport will rise and probably rise quite dramatically. There is a new sherriff in our land with quite a different approach to how we will proceed in life. Petroleum prices are and will continue to rise. With this increase in Petroleum prices, nearly every aspect of this sport will be impacted.

 

the differences between class E and L&R,

Well reminder and again this is what I have been told by leading techno's in our organization is that when a R&l tournament is sanctioned aspects from class R all the way down to class C are and can be available. Class E has different rules for tricks then class L&R particularly in the the iwwfs BS 6 flip rule where AWSA does not abide too for AWSA class C&E. Recently the AWSA went ahead changed all the rules as it pertains to jump and slalom to be the same or in-line with iwwf.

 

Onward to the cost to participate.

It just seems that the powers to be that lead or dictate the sport continue in a elitist path and ideology. Refusal to recognize that older boats can be utilized just as well as as the brand new boats and in many cases the older boats work better.

Reminder there is no more promo programs!!

Analites that seem to promote unnecessary pricey technology to be used in "competition " have the ear of these elitist leaders in the sport. Latest greatest Technology ideology has really not done nothing more then run off membership. It has appeased the few whiney slalom skiers. You know the squeaky wheel!

The times when the public lake skier could show up to a tournament and be competitive is long gone.

Open dialog between leaders, rule makers in this sport and membership is still piss poor and non timely if any at all. Gorilla leadership still reins true with this organization.

 

2021 will be a eye opener for our sport, membership of our sport and the overall health of competitive waterskiing will be

Tested.

 

Again yes the price to enter tournaments will increase!

 

[unksskis]

So I’m expected to pay another $25 to ski L or R at Regionals and Nationals in order to support a Worlds in which I have no interest in? So I can see my name on another list? Who thinks these things out?

[Horton]

@unksskis or you can ski Class C.

 

"Class L & R " are literally the World Standard. If you want to ski at the local standard there is nothing wrong with that.

[MISkier]

@Horton, he mentioned Regionals and Nationals. I did not think he could ski class C there. If not, then the IWWF license is required for those events.

[unksskis]

Correct, I don’t believe I can select class “C” for Regionals and Nationals, and even if I could, it’s not worth it given the current high cost of entry, I just simply won’t go.

 

Edit: I confirmed Nationals does not currently offer class C. Only L, E, or R. I don’t believe it has ever been an option, and was part of the reasoning associated for such high entry costs to begin with.

[Horton]

As for Nationals, after the cost of travel, hotel, food, entry fees and such - the $25 is irrelevant.

[unksskis]

@Horton that is your opinion as to how much impact $25 may have on an individual, or their situation as to budgeting for attending Regionals and Nationals. I’ll let this thread get back on original topic, the solution is to ski Class E according to @MattP

[Horton]

@unksskis An hour on a new boat is at least $50 in depreciation. For any boat $25 is a 1/2 tank of gas or less depending on gas prices. It is the cost of a T-Shirt. It is 25% of a new rope. It is a couple of cups of coffee at Starbucks.

[lpskier]

If your only record tournaments are Regionals and Nationals, pay the $7 single event fee for both. It’s only $14. Althere may be a limit on the number of single event entries one can do.

[klindy]

@lpskier or ski class E if offered (at Regionals).

[Broussard]

Is there any other National/International organization that does not require a competitor license fee to participate? I'm honestly surprised that it took IWWF so long to implement this.

 

If you want your scores to go to IWWF, ski Class L. If you don't want to pay the IWWF fee, ski Class C or E.

[ALPJr]

Conversely, do we expect any recreational/athletic pursuits to cost less in 2021?

[Jody_Seal]

So ok ! Lemme get this straight.

I as a tournament host have to pay that extra $75 or whatever ( over awsa sanction) it is to bond ($anction) that my tournament is or will be of record capability and provide official$ and equipment nece$$ary and certify that all contestants are licen$ed ?

 

Or as a skier I enter a record tournament and pay the entry fee to ski in that tournament that is record capable I have to pay another organization other then my own or included with what I pay my own organization?

So then I did not pay my playground shakedown fee. What happens to my score? Does it just get put on the awsa list as E?

So then I am an overall skier skiing at nationals and again no bueno with the $hakedown fee and a few of my competitors did play to get on a " list" . Now how am I going to get scored ?? Do I trick under awsa rules? Are the overall winners going to be placed via the 1000 point system or the BS Nops system???

Come on man!!!

This crap is pretty confusing especially yea yea I know we were "Told" this was going to come into play or pay more to play a year ago.. but! Again "Told" . Like I posted earlier Gorilla politics come into play.

Hopefully the regional and national meetings will be zoom for "all" members to participate or at least we can tune in to see what we will be told next!!

[sunperch]

@Jody_Seal what is your guess on how many people really care about being on the IWWF list? Percentage of AWSA members or percentage of regionals and Nationals participant?

[Golfguy]

Back on topic, I will pay $50 per boat hour used to pull my tournaments. I calculate 8 to 10 hours in a single day tournament.

 

[RichardDoane]

for the Imperial Friday Turn and Burn, we raised the entry fee to $55. but had to drop the number of skiers in order to finish before dark. 35 skiers @ $55. ea. makes $1925. less $310 in sanction fee leaves $1615. subtract 10 hours on a boat @ $50 /hr. we're now down to $1115. then the cost of fuel at about $215. leaves $900. misc supplies will eat $100. so there's still $800. remaining for the HOA. and by the way, we do not comp. any entries and rely on volunteer officials. My point is that we do this for our skier's enjoyment and the involvement of like minded people, definitely not for the $$$

[jcamp]

@golfguy thanks for the good info. What are the rest of you tournament organizers estimating for boat hours? The tournament I organize is three rounds of slalom, about 30 skiers. Trying to figure out how many boat hours that is so I can determine our entry fee. Thanks.

[unksskis]

These seem to be slalom only where multiple rounds are paid for in one entry. Any idea on how to apply it to trick and jump, or 2rd - 3 event, when one may have up to 6 pulls?

[RichardDoane]

@jcamp we usually go with 10 skier per hour as an average

[jcamp]

@RichardDoane per round I'm guessing?

[klindy]

@unksskis You’ve touched on a big issue in my mind. Basically, using @RichardDoane number of 10 skiers an hour a $50/hour reimbursement works out to $5 per skier per round. So $10-15 for a slalom skier if it’s a 2-3 round tournament. However for a 2rd 3-event tournament that 3-event skier sees a $30-45 hike in entry fees. My concern is that it will drive a spike in overall skiers.

 

Of course the proposal is for a $25 reimbursement so it will cut the cost in half. We really do need to do something about boats and adding the costs to the entry fee is likely the only route.

 

A question is why don’t all drivers just shut the boat off at each end of the lake. The gas and engine “idle” time saved is likely worth more than even the $50 reimbursement. We’ve done that at the lake for as long as I can remember and I don’t understand why others don’t do it. The cost of a starter is minimal relative to the depreciation due to hours. If I recall about 60% of the hours are idle hours.

[skierjp]

@klindy The price of a starter and the wear and tear of starting a engine every time it gets to the end of the course will cause the Promo guys extra maintenance. Plus, all these thousands of starts show up in the computer. If I hear of a LOC telling the drivers to shut the engine off at each end of the course I will have my Team Members pull the boat from the tournament. Also, if you shut the boat off it shuts down the set down timer.

I think charging by the hour is ridiculous. I have had LOC’s beg me for a boat because there isn’t a boat within 4 or 5 hours of his site. So let’s just say I send a boat and they only use it for 2 or 3 hours because they have all 3 boat brands on site. This won’t even come close to covering the expense for getting the boat on site. If the boat has to travel 4 or 5 hours more then likely the Promo guy will need to leave Friday evening so that means a hotel. If it’s a 2 day event now it’s 2 nights in a hotel plus gas and wear and tear on the tow vehicle.

I have sat through almost every Florida Winter meeting where all the tournaments for the upcoming year are scheduled. Not one time is boat availability ever even considered. Multiple tournaments are scheduled for the same weekend and I only have 2 boats to cover the state.

It all comes down to this. You can’t have a tournament without a boat so please be considerate on your decisions.

 

[klindy]

@skierjp Thanks for the feedback. Also, very interesting feedback. I understand the comments about stopping the engine on each end. I wasn’t advocating to use it as a means to avoid the reimbursement costs. I was merely saying we’ve done that for quite a while.

 

More interesting is your comments about scheduling tournaments in FL. The AWSA executive committee meeting was at the same time or I would have attended this year. As you likely know there has historically been a schedule “issue” especially in central FL where there are a lot of sites and skiers. I’ve been a vocal advocate for adjusting the “rules” to allow for more opportunities for more skiers to get on the water.

 

The agreement was changed to allow the “protected” site to confirm the date, secure officials AND boats until a certain date (March 15 I believe). After then, another site could also schedule a tournament and go to work to get officials and boats lined up. Regardless of the details, for this to work at all there MUST be close cooperation between sites and boat owners/promo teams. That boats were not even a consideration is a concern.

 

Granted some lakes may have their own boats and therefore it’s not a concern (for them). But it’s sounding like there may be some value in formalizing the process more than it is.

 

@skierjp if you want to discuss this offline, shoot me a PM and I’ll get some contact info to you.

[skierjp]

@klindy yes, very thankful for some of these sites being ski schools where some of them provide their own boats. I think this new plan in Florida will give skiers more choices of where to ski. It should be a win win for everyone. We need to get the younger generation motivated to work towards official ratings. I keep hearing on this site where LOC’s don’t comp or give some sort of break to officials. This is really the only motive to get volunteers involved.

[JackQ]

To add on to @skierjp concerns, shutting boat after each pass is a significant issue for newer boats with cats, loss of water flow and heat soak, over and over again will significantly effect their lifespan.

[Jody_Seal]

This is some funny stuff right there!! Shut the boat down lol!!!!

Any you think that ski school boats are dialed in machines I have a abandoned bridge over some caustic swamp land fir sale.

Going to be an interesting year for sure.

@skierjp there still is a team??

[skierjp]

@Jody_Seal no real changes from last year.

[lpskier]

As a tournament organizer, my fear in shutting the boat off is a failure to restart.

 

Wait timer runs with the motor off (electric power still on) in an MC. I’m surprised it shuts off in a Nautique.