My onside turn problems. How Should I fix ? Need Advise!

[FunoRyota]

 

Hey Ballers! I need some help!

 

Here is a video of me shoulder/elbow drop on my onside turn.

It happens when the line gets shorter.

I'm 28,32 and 2 at 35 guy normally.

I still can run but I really need to fix this my habit to run 35.

TW told me to stay open to the boat and that helped me to keep my shoulder level. I need to keep doing it though.

 

I would like to know how you guys think about my skiing and how you guys try to fix !

I coach many collegiate skiers so I wanna learn how you coach for skiers like me.

 

Any advices appreciated! Thank you !

Cheers !

[Stevie Boy]

Onside, take the handle with you, stand up, ride the ski, you maybe fixated by the bouy, and eager to turn, hence a little narrow and getting in deep, slowing the ski, missing out on angle cross course.

A video of the gate shot would of been quite useful, it all starts there, the difference between chasing the boat or being in the zone, if you do not have the width to start with, you are going to come up short.

Watch video of TW, do not watch him, watch where the line is on the boat, pretty sure every swing the line is going to be in a identical place on both sides.

Your sking is much better than mine.

[FunoRyota]

 

 

 

I’m posting some full pass videoed 32off/36

[Stevie Boy]

What I see is, going out to 1,3,5 the ski transitions nice and early and swings outbound for you, going to 2,4,6 your hands are a little higher, stopping your ski swinging out, you pull a little longer, then use your arms for the edge change, use knees and hips to maintain angle out towards 2,4,6.

This may help the ski transition earlier and move outbound for 2,4,6 without using your arms.

Maybe more back arm pressure out of !,3,5

Just my two cents worth, others are going to see different things.

[scoke]

Easy fix.

 

Some guys "Squat and Pull" meaning they bend their knees, drop their ass back and pull across the boat with bent arms. They'll never own any real buoys. There has been thread after thread on here and videos of guys skiing that way. incorrectly.

 

Other batch of guys "Pull but kinda lean". They roll the ski on a nice edge, their shoulders are pulled back 1 notch but their arms are bent and they are "pulling" themselves across the boat. That's you.

 

Therefore you are "arm skiing" the entire pass versus using your legs and ski as a pendulum. The arms should be part of the connection, not the system making things happen. You are artificially swinging versus using the energy of the boat. Owning 35' will be near impossible at 36 using your arms.

 

Freeze frame Nate, Freddie, Will etc. at the first spray and through centerline. Just focus on their arms. Now do the same.

 

You'll see their arms are straight so the load is transferred into their lower half, thus creating swing energy.

 

Until you change your approach of your arms, you'll be putting a band-aid on a broken leg.

 

 

[thager]

Your gate looks like you should pull out a little wider then stay out wider in the glide by staying on your outside edge before turning in for the gates. You are gliding on the inside edge reducing your width, angle and swing. Also looks to me like you need to be more patient in your turns at 1-3-5 maintaining a little more front foot pressure longer. You are transitioning to the tail of the ski (Rushing the turn) and are back on the handle before your ski comes under the rope.

[ReallyGottaSki]

Heh, you know that thing, you keep doing...dont do that.

 

but more seriously, you appear very dedicated and in great shape

 

I'm seeing the item you wish to correct seems to be even more acute when you are low on energy entering ost.

 

Handle control, handle discipline , I observe giving the boat too much handle in preturn

I see that elbow purposefully, reactively going down to scoop water, so thats why the shoulder is dropping. Grabbing a big handful of turn but folding to absorb the line loading prior to sweeping the legs around fully and ready to turn loading into acceleration.

 

So, i interpret the messy ost as trying to overcompensate for other less visually apparent items

 

. stack appears you understand how it should go but in execution..the body is crushed more often than not somewhere in the cut, and trying to reel in the hips. This means missing energy. so pursue a stance that needs less motions/corrections throughout should net you big gains. I would also consider freeski the sh|t out of that place to tune in the symmetry and work on some things so you don't trade form for orange balls.

Sensei says practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect

 

Even the osc should have more leverage putting power down than this image indicates, i see your shoulders are leading the charge, feet and hips trying to catch up.

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I think Scoke pretty much nailed it. The result you have now is your hips are back into, during and out of the turn, so the only way to get the ski to turn is drop your shoulder, which leads to other bad things. You need to stand taller into the buoy and focus on turning with your hips.

[6balls]

@scoke is right on your arms...u will be amazed at your efficiency if u allow them to be straight in your lean and get your hips under yourself instead of them trailing.

If I’m early into onside and waiting I have a tendency to dunk like you. Don’t fixate on the ball take a gaze down buoy line and reach there too...not really there’s but more that way then at the wake or boat it will keep that inside shoulder higher. Slide under the rope at turn and go...the rope should be higher so u don’t have to go so low.

The above may not sound technical, but I really have fought an onside overkill for many years it’s just some things that work in my head.

If I get behind we’ll all bets are off driver needs 2 hands for my 2 and 4

[RGilmore]

From the finish of the one ball thru the wakes you are putting in a ton of energy to build speed and angle. And then, as if you decide that's all you needed, you release - WAY too early - and ride a super-soft rope out to apex. As a result, at the ball, your reach is almost like an afterthought.

 

So you built up all of this potential energy off the one ball turn, only to give half of that energy away during a decelerating glide to the two ball. Consequently there's no way you can release and ski "out to the end of the rope" with full extension. Compare your reach at the one ball to your "extension" at the two ball - there's a night-and-day difference. And because you fail to maintain your potential energy out to apex, your two ball turn is pretty much a disconnected free fall up until the rope goes tight again.

 

So you drop your right shoulder and drag your elbow in the water to force a fast hard turn - which you are excellent at, by the way. But that kind of skiing at 32-off will not get you through 35 off very often, and you can forget about 38. Ski boats (and Zero Off) these day are way too powerful to let you muscle your way through the course like that.

 

The fix is to keep both hands connected to a tight line, and your upper body away for a fraction of a second longer. Then, when you release, try to imagine your ski shooting out around the two ball while your right arm is stretched out at full extension. I know is seems as if you don't want the rope tight at full extension; after all, what if the boat yanks the handle right out of your hand? That won't happen. What will happen is your ski will snap around underneath you and bring your free hand right back to the handle on a tight line.

 

"At the apex of the turn, your reaching arm should be fully extended, your upper body and head should be facing down course, your core should be engaged... At apex, your reaching arm should feel a slight pull (that's how you know you are at apex). [Chrsi Rossi, 2009]

[FunoRyota]

@scoke Yes. you are right. I'm Pull but kinda lean guy. When the line gets shorter, i can't get wide enough and cut in a strong position. I will try stretch my arms on purpose and ski more efficient.

With arms streatching, my upper body should be face to the boat at the wake ?

or arms stretching but try to face around next buoy?

 

 

@thager Narrow gate is all time problem. I will try go wider and keep that width with outside edge!

 

@ReallyGottaSki Thank you for your sharp observation!

Hips are bend, behind, giving the handle to the boat is my weakness.

I will try hard to stand tall everywhere and stay close to the handle even after the wake!

 

@Bruce_Butterfield

Stand tall!

It's easy to say and try to do stand tall in the course.

What is your mind or head when you try to stand tall in the course?

Hips over your front foot? Stretching both legs ?

I want to know what's in their mind when told to stand tall.

 

 

@6balls

Thank you !

I always worry about my onside. Will keep trying head up, inside shoulder higher!

 

 

@RGilmore

Two hands on the handle londer for get winder and tight line!

I came up with the Cory Pickos's slalom. His slalom is like alomost two handed slalom.

I will try hold the hand with two hands as long as possible and release much less time to get a tight line!!

 

 

THANK YOU FOR MANY ADVICES !!!

 

My site is always open during winter so I'll get ski as many as possible and try those key tips you guys told me!

 

1 Straight my arm with hips up. Ski efficiently.

2 two hands on the handle longer for tight line.

 

I'll post some videos next week!

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@FunoRyota one trick that can really help is to visualize keeping your shoulders facing downcourse at all times. Here's a link to an article that describes the concept, but unfortunately the pictures and illustrations got lost in one of Horton's website makeovers.

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/home-page/tech/785-staying-open

 

The key here is that attempting to keep your shoulders perfectly downcourse is a single thing to focus on that forces you to stay tall, upper body still, and turn with your hips.

[ForrestGump]

You never really relax your arms. You keep tension in your biceps. Fix that and a lot of things are resolved. Good skiing. That looked cold as hell. I couldn't do it. lol

[FunoRyota]

@Bruce_Butterfield It was you who wrote this article here!

https://www.skiall6.com/articles/bruce-butterfield/staying-open

 

That's why I recognize your name somehow!

Now I understand so much better!!

 

I was misunderstanding the term of " open shoulder at the turn" and " Always face downcourse" means. It's same thing.

I was wondering how should I do that " always face downcourse " and " open shoulder at the turn"

" face to the downcourse " meant Face to the boat during cut, and then open to the outside of the course at the buoys. like 2 separated thing.

 

But now with Figure 1 "Ideal skier path with shoulders always facing downcourse" It got my head so clear!

 

When you turn , where do you look?

If I'm turning buoy 2(my onside turn), I look at 4,6 buoy? the boat? or next buoy?

[FunoRyota]

@ForrestGump Lowest temp will be below 28F rest of this week.

My site is a Dam so no ice all winter.

Let's see what happens when I ski in such a cold temp.... I'm kinda excited though hahaha

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@FunoRyota where to look is a topic of endless debate and no really clear universal answer. Looking downcourse, across or at the back of the boat are keys that work for some skiers and not so well for others. If you are a really “visual” person, it may help to find a good point to look at. If you are not that visual its better to focus on “feeling” what your body is doing.

 

With your weather being so cold, its better to keep the rope longer (or slow the boat to 34) and focus on body position to engrain good technique and less on max buoys. I would slow to 34mph and run lots of 28 and 32 off until it gets warmer. Even young bodies don’t perform in the cold :)

[FunoRyota]

@Bruce_Butterfield

Jay Bennett told me to use mid loop.

Which do you think its better to slow the boat down to 34mph and do lots of 32s

or use mid loop(34off) at 36mph?

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Both mid loop and slowing have the same effect of making the next pass easier. If your weather was more normal for waterskiing I think the mid loop would be better.

 

However as a general rule when the water is really cold, slowing the boat and working on technique is better.

 

Keep in mind that if you have even a slight chill you should not be attempting your hardest pass. Much better to do repetition of good technique at easier passes.

[FunoRyota]

@Bruce_Butterfield

Got it!!

Thank you!!

[FunoRyota]

Hope this helps

 

[RGilmore]

@FunoRyota if by "Stretch Arm" you are trying to have reminder for the point I made, you might be better served with "Fully Extend". The concept is that, at apex, your ski is as far away from the handle as it can be without the handle being pulled free from your grip.

[FunoRyota]

Big cold front hit our area and had so much snow so I only got to ski one set.

 

Still struggling with keep the back arm elbow close to the body after the wake so my shoulders aren’t level.

 

But I immediately felt the difference by doing “face down course” on my gates.

My center of mass was better position than better.

I just keep doing these during winter.

[FunoRyota]

 

This is after

I think this is better COM position than before.

 

[FunoRyota]

 

This is before

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@FunoRyota good start! You are still leading with your shoulder and have too much weight on your back foot. Your goal is to "try" to get ALL your weight on the front foot and lead with your hips.

[FunoRyota]

@Bruce_Butterfield

Still need to be more horizontal ! And not 50:50 weight . 100:0 on my front foot..?

Ok I will try !!! Thank you!

[Horton]

@FunoRyota

 

Try this. On your gate turn-in think about bringing your left hip around and pointing it at the boat while keeping your shoulders level. You are never going to totally close off your hips in this direction but I think closing your hips a bit more will do a lot for your connection.