Reinvent my onside

[Horton]

Enough is enough. My onside has been a mess for my whole skiing life. I see what I do at apex and I am sickened by it. See 2 ball below. My left shoulder cocks back all of a sudden and then my mass follows. I am committed to learning to drive forward and minimize upper body movement. I have already heard a few suggestions and am trying some stuff but I am open more ideas.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CNaWul3BnX_/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[MISkier]

At point of edge change/preturn of two ball, it looked like you leaned back to the boat with your body before the ski actually started to ride out on the other edge. That is, it looked like you led the edge change from your upper body. Other edge changes in that pass had the ski rolling onto the other edge underneath more upper body stillness (which was also more upright during those transitions). Those other onside edge changes/preturns looked a bit better. If you are leaning into the boat with your upper body too early, rather than letting the ski finish the edge change underneath you and start riding out to apex, it could feel like a little bit of lost connection and more downcourse. That might feel fast coming into the buoy and you compensate by pulling that shoulder back to adjust that connection and prepare to take the hit that you suspect is coming.

 

Still really good skiing, though.

[skibug]

this is a "me too" movement as my onside haunts me and holds me back from being a better skier.

[jayski]

ummm reach ahead instead of out to the side..which "good" skier do you see that doesn't reach "down the ski" or "ahead"

 

KISS...don't overthink it, but I mean IF you want to overthink it, that failure starts at your gate..it always starts with gates...

[Horton]

@jayski I have thought about that approach. Reaching forward is for sure on my list of possible solutions. It is not my prime solution because I have a tendency to let my shoulders move forward when I reach forward.

[jayski]

@Horton and that's bad? I mean with that do you hinge at the waist... and leave the dump truck behind??

[Horton]

@jayski Yea I think if my shoulders move forward my hips will drop. I think my lower mass needs to move first.

 

Yesterday I was playing with pulling my feet back as I approach the ball. Same thing as driving knees forward. Odd thing was when I work on this I throw the handle out early and high. I have ZERO understanding of why that was happening. This is going to be a project.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

What I see is you yanking the handle into your sternum with your hips dropping back simultaneously. Normally the cause is prior to the obvious mistake, but in this case I think yanking the handle in is the root cause. The bad news is the likely solution is between your ears:) You just need to be patient and let the ski complete the turn, leave the handle out and ski under it. Easy to say, but for many skiers its not easy to do.

 

But, damn that ski looks good.

[Adam Caldwell]

Might consider a touch more depth in the fin.

[BlueSki]

Question: are you letting your left hip fall behind slightly and right shoulder rotate down course a bit going into 1/3/5? Going to 2/4/6 you don’t have the same appearance, you seem more still. No offense, but I’m treating this like a test for me, so I am less concerned about your offside and more concerned with whether or not I am noticing the right thing.

[Andre]

Interrested to see if you'll be able to change 47 years of skiing that way...That's the hardest part IMO.

[PurdueSkier]

I am not an expert but throw in my observation....it looks like as you come into the apex your hips remain outbound/open. As you come around the buoy you are rotating your shoulders but much slower to rotate your hips. I know some people ski with more open hips but on your onside it looks more like you are sliding your hips around the buoy and not turning. I think this is causing a slow rotation of the ski, causing slack, causing you to fall back on the rope and ski......or your pull out for the gates was all wrong.

[ForrestGump]

I slowed it down and watched it twenty times. Man, that movement off the ball at 2 and 4 is odd. What I do notice, though, is that you are off the handle much earlier going into 1/3/5. The ski has barely rolled under you and your letting go.

[thager]

Change to LFF to get your onside on the correct side of the course. Please take video!

[6balls]

You’re reaching very high and your hand up when you’re about to conclude— above your head. Then when you snatch in the slack it looks like almost ran over the rope.

 

I’m with Jay on a little forward in the Reach. Don’t overexaggerate it—-subtle. How much wing angle?

 

Hips are very open looks a little like you are opening them in preturn (left rotated)which starts you rearward which pushes reach up and the there is some kind of wakeboard turn falling back, pelvis facing up that results.

 

Can u keep from rotating your frame and torso so chest and pelvis to the shore? You wind it out a little too far and then have to unwind in the turn as a result.

 

Very fixable u can do it!

[A_B]

A couple things to think over.

 

I am a little opposite on the counter rotating and think you could do more sooner. Look for a straight line down the line and through your shoulders.

 

You seem to want to yank the handle in to your middle instead of skiing your left hip around to the handle.

 

You get into a bent forward mode from inertia so try to tighten your core and absorb the turn more in your body vs back.

 

You might want to try “sitting on the ball” with your hip and getting the ski around and hold that position instead of pulling in on the line and then moving over to your left hip.

 

FWIW.

 

AB

[ski6jones]

@adamhcaldwell what did you see that made you suggest more depth? Just curious.

[RichardDoane]

first world problem, @Bruce_Butterfield +1 on the ski looking good, and patience-handle on time

[Deanoski]

your boot not flat so it make you sit back. if your a real real good skier you can make the movement with any set up the rest of ( walleys) it really effects our stance.

[Horton]

@A_B that is exactly what I am trying to unlearn. Counter rotation seems works great on the dock or in theory but it does not work for me. It is why I am back.

[Horton]

@jayski your bodies are like hinges... Generally if your shoulders go forward your hips are going back I want my COM forward. Handle forward works for a lot of skiers but I think I want my forward move to be in my lower body.

[A_B]

@Horton, okay I get it doesn't work for you, but it doesn't sound like you think what you are doing instead is working either. My body gets sore just watching that pass. (I am 62 though and used to muscle my way around back in the day, maybe that is why my shoulders, wrists, and fingers feel 82?).

 

Wherever your chest is pointed is where the ski is going to be driven, and at the finish of the turn you are driving it down abruptly and hence the pull into your midsection is needed to complete the turn, versus a more erect posture and bringing the left hip around to carve a turn, you are just stopping, muscling the handle, and then holding on. It still goes in the books as 6, but man that looks like a lot of work, and only gets harder when the person in the boat brings you closer.

 

I wouldn't rule out you trying to drop your right hip down on the buoy with a tight upper abdomen while bringing the left hip around, that could give you better body position right away other than having to fight to gain it back, which you are doing.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield I think the yanking of the handle is an automatic response to the ski not carving back in. If the ski was rotating I think it would be much less tempting to yank. Frankly without the yank I think it am plowing straight down the lake which is why I am focused on moving forward and much less counter.

 

We will see.

[MISkier]

I still think your issue is the ski not riding out optimally to apex, which is why it isn't carving back in like you want (feeling fast and downcourse and not rotating).

[MISkier]

One other thought: maybe that is what the additional fin depth is supposed to address?

[jayski]

@Horton "your bodies are like hinges... Generally if your shoulders go forward your hips are going back I want my COM forward". I disagree in part...as yes we posses hinges but...

 

This only occurs if your brain allows that to happen

 

"Handle forward works for a lot of skiers but I think I want my forward move to be in my lower body"

 

a handle forward cures much more than just COM shift...It also equates to level shoulders, inhibits "falling in" at the buoy, increased width, and even a inhibits a 'blocking' rotation at the finish of the turn...if you want to focus on your 'lower body' then focus on your right hip moving ahead initially then the handle release being ahead...one can and needs to find the simple cue/movement/thought that causes execution of a number of positive results

[Adam Caldwell]

The shoulders need to be more in line with the skis bank angle both on the way out and the way back in from apex. If your falling "in" at the ball, then the issue is gate timing and being out of synch with the boat at the turn finish, or a ski setup issue that's putting you too fast at the apex. Falling in is not caused by "unlevel shoulders".

 

For your RFF heel side turn, A moment before the release try to use the pull from the rope to help you bring the left shoulder higher then the right, and allow the left arm/hand come up the body and extend across the chest (you should see the handle rotate slightly more vertical a moment before the release of the outside hand). This will move your COM further beyond the inside turning edge much more then any form of counter, and also much earlier. (this goes back to the idea of using the body as a lever for mechanical advantage of the turning/loaded edge at all times).

 

Once the outside hand lets go, keep it under control. I cant stress this enough. Do your best to keep your left hand both out in front of your body AND over the inside edge of the ski - don't allow the left arm fling to shore and closer to the ski - all that is doing is moving mass back toward the ski, takes away your leveraged position and delays the roll and pitch rotation your looking for upcourse of the ball.

 

If any hand needs to be 'reaching' its the left one to try to keep it moving with your chest and shoulders INTO the turn, and not flinging behind your body and out toward shore in a manner that causes your hips to fall back, shoulders to go level, and ultimately causes both the body and the ski to STOP ROTATING and run parallel down the ball line for a moment that kills the continuity of the turning/rotating ski.

 

We need to be focused on things that keep the ski turning, and the body turning from the moment we leave CL, to the time were back on the handle at the turn finish.

 

By not allowing the left arm to swing behind our body and out toward shore, you keep more mass over the inside edge for a longer period of time. You wind up with more ski rotation earlier, which will help you find the support from the boat on the back of the ball faster.

 

Exaggerate this idea at your earlier lines and see what happens.

[Horton]

All right I'm going to reread Caldwell's post a few times....

 

Progress so far is as follows.

 

Yesterday: I focused on making sure that I was as stacked as possible leaving 1/3/5 ( forward ). From the second wake out to Apex I focused on keeping my mass high and as much to the left as possible. Lastly and most importantly I drove my hips and front knee forward as far as possible from the second week to Apex. Early results are promising.

[ForrestGump]

hmmmmmmmmmm "A moment before the release try to use the pull from the rope to help you bring the left shoulder higher then the right, and allow the left arm/hand come up the body and extend across the chest (you should see the handle rotate slightly more vertical a moment before the release of the outside hand). "

 

This is the movement that CP has always done so well.

[matthewbrown]

Here’s your problem, you are a lifetime away from 2 ball but your body position suggests that the buoy is coming up in about 10 feet. You have sat back through the transition, fallen to the inside and lost all of your edge tension sending you on a narrower path. By the time you get to the buoy you are all out of moves because you did them all too early. Now you have literally nowhere to go but back.

 

[matthewbrown]

This is the moment you begin to lose everything

 

 

[MISkier]

@matthewbrown, I like the way you think.

[thager]

Hello, my name is Horton and I am a slalom addict......

[Adam Caldwell]

I'm sure my post sounded a bit out of the box. Maybe this will help. Achieving control of the outside free hand is incredibly difficult. I have focused on this for years now and still cant come close to the level of control at shortline as what these two guys can do.

 

 

 

CP doesnt look any different.

 

Not sure there's a video that exists of a video of CP or Mapple with level shoulders through a turn. Shoulders parrelel with top of ski? Yes. Parrallel with the water? I dont see it.

[jayski]

Guess this kind of "level is wrong then, but I will take this everyday over shoulder dropping...

 

 

From "train with terry"

 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@Jayski - Pictures can look really cool at longer lines with level shoulders. Show me video of those guys at 41, and lets see if there's any onside turns with a tight rope and a clean turn with level shoulders.

 

I'm trying to push my understanding to run the next pass thats never been run. With where I am at in my learning process, my position is that level shoulders is not what is going to get done. Might take the RFF guys a few more cracks trying to turn 2 ball @43 to realize that.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell I know you're not saying that you want to massively fall to the inside early. I think some of the disagreement on this subject is semantics.

 

For me attempting to be level helps me keep from moving to the inside early and makes me more balanced. On the other hand I'm not sure it's really necessary to be literally shoulders parallel to the water.

 

Coaching skiers to try to have more level shoulders almost always produces positive results for me. On the other hand I don't coach anybody who runs 41 off.

[Adam Caldwell]

@horton, I agree. I think it’s natural to focus solely on the turn as the root of all issues. I NEVER get into conversation about turning because it’s the final phase of a long sequence of events and there’s a lot more to work on. However, this thread was more specific to a turn so I bit on it.

 

When you get away from looking at turn issues and get more focused on what’s going on behind the boat (which is HARD to understand, let alone coach) all of a sudden the conversation about more level shoulders is often not needed anymore.

 

Leveling shoulders can help a skier who separated find balance. But what happens if we correct the connection first?

[jayski]

@adamhcaldwell we are all well aware of the diminishing ability to maintain perfect form from early passes to our hardest...however to dismiss the benefits of applying proper form on earlier passes (as it will surely carry forth to a certain degree into harder passes) is a inaccuracy I feel, and really you are saying the same thing but just disagreeing with the level shoulders part...and 41 has been run a lot...and more than 2@43 has been run quite a bit, just not in tourney's...but practice doesn't count lol

 

your pictures do point out one thing though that both of them are reaching further "ahead" than what @Horton depicts in his video...

 

In regards to level shoulder, Nate vid @ 41

 

Terry @ 39

 

 

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell no disagreement that at least part of my fundamental issue starts at the exit on Off Side.

[matthewbrown]

@Horton that is correct, your exit from the previous buoy and what you do behind the boat is the real magic. I also agree with Caldwell that I don’t want level shoulders as I’m approaching the buoy and through the initiation of the turn and there are a few of reasons why this is accurate.

[Adam Caldwell]

@jayski - Like anything, level shoulders being "proper form" is an IDEA, and yes a very popular one at that.

 

I am attempting to bring to light a very different style of traveling through apex that was likely much more common over 25-30 years ago (way before my time) when the OGs started to figure out how to run super short line.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell I am very willing to reconsider my belief in level shoulders approaching the ball. It would take a lot more convincing to get me to reconsider the idea that is important for my mass to be high off the water approaching a right foot forward 2/4/6. Perhaps I am guilty of conflating level shoulders approaching the ball with having my chin and mass higher off the water approaching the ball.

 

 

[Dano]

I see CP with hips and shoulders squared to the ski, or pointing in the same direction of travel. All the other pics look like those skiers are counter rotating more.

[skibug]

I would argue that even Nate and Terry, at least in those videos, hardly ever break the plane of their torso with their off hand, it is never flung behind their outside hip extended. Their offsides are a little more pronounced and over the top, but they are not counter rotating, they stay pretty square.

[Dano]

I’ve been spending some time rethinking how I ski wake to ball. Really focusing on trying to stay connected and swinging higher as opposed to wider. What I’ve found is my ski has to come out of angle much sooner in order to follow the handle path. Now I’m noticing that I’m skiing with more speed, and control at apex and I’m more “still” on the ski and I’m not really countering at all. I don’t really understand what is happening but I like it. I use to pull long thru the wakes focused on getting wide and early which really made me focus on shoulders level accomplished by an earlier reach and countering as I approached apex in order to maintain outbound direction. I always felt as though once in this position I was basically committing to a certain path prone to making a big move to change directions.It’s hard to really describe the difference. I think squaring hips and shoulders is a stronger position but you have to ski a different path to do it.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@adamhcaldwell

I don’t disagree that Andy and CP’ shoulder position is ideal vs level. I think the problem is with human nature, we need to exaggerate and over correct to achieve the “ideal” position. That is if a skier who is dropping his shoulders and attempts to get Andy’s position, he will be lucky to get halfway there. If he attempts to exaggerate and truly get his shoulders level he will have a better chance at getting close. If someone truly has Andy’s shoulder position, he definitely has other things to change than getting his shoulders perfectly level.

 

How many times have all of us tried something new and thought we were perfect, then looked at video and realized we weren’t even close?

[RGilmore]

The indomitable Jeff Rogers has one of the very best onside turns in the history of the sport. A couple of decades ago an interviewer asked him how he does it, and he answered, "I try to sit on the ball". Make of that what you will.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Bruce_Butterfield - Originally, this thread was specifically about @Hortons heelside at 38off. I wouldn't even be close to unthatching this kind of info if he was not a point in his skiing where hes trying to break through the 39barrier. Hes got so many good things going on I think he can start to capitalize on a slightly different approach to that HS turn.

 

I don't believe aiming for level shoulders as a way to overshoot a body position is going to get you to where Mapple/CP are as that is not their objective leaving the second wake. Their objective is to stay connected to the swing. Staying connected means your shoulders will not be very level when you release off the handle.

 

@Dano - Yes it is very hard to describe! I went through a very similar experience when I re-evaluated my objective and the role the skier plays in the "system" as a whole. A lot of positive things happen when you focus on connection and swing vs trying to ski wide and early.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

For a different perspective of the free-hand on the HS turn from the master.