is this 1/4 ball or 1/2 ball?

[Horton]

[aussiemc]

1/4, the ski was not pointed across course (and or in the water) after the ball.

[klindy]

1/4.

[lpskier]

Video is 3.5 hours long.

 

 

[klindy]

Start at 3:03:40 for the slo-mo replay.

[Than_Bogan]

@aussiemc where the ski is pointed is not part of the criteria. Are you suggesting that implies something?

[klindy]

The question is when does the skier “fall”. A fall occurs when 1) the skier looses the handle, 2) the skier doesn’t have at least one foot on the ski OR 3) the skiers weight is not primarily supported by his skier and is ultimately able to regain skiing position. (Rules 8.06 & 8.07).

 

In this case he has the handle and has at least one foot on the ski. But his weight is not supported by the ski as he skids across the water. And he clearly doesn’t regain skiing position. So the fall occurs as soon as the ski is out of the water.

 

A “miss” on the other hand is going inside or displacing the buoy. In this case I don’t think there’s an argument about whether he got outside the buoy - he did.

[ral]

@klindy , 3:30:40 is kind of at the very end.

[ral]

For 1/2, all that @klindy pointed out plus the skier gets after the buoy inside the line of buoys that the scored buoy belongs to. Or something like that…

[Horton]

@lpskier the link I posted should start you right before Fred's 41 pass

 

[Horton]

This is really interesting because he has the handle for sure and is supported by the ski for at least 15 feet past the ball before his body hits the water. I say the physics are such that he must have passed inside the ball line for the 1/2 even though we can not see it from the video.

[MISkier]

1/4. @klindy said my exact reasoning for my call.

[Horton]

@klindy the fall happens at least 15 feet past the ball. At 41 off how does a skier travel 15 feet past the ball without the bindings passing back inside the ball line?

 

He has not fallen yet and is likely already back inside.

 

Next frame

 

here is the legal end of his ride

 

[lpskier]

I agree with @Horton.

[Kelvin]

The official score was 3.5. The judgement of reasonable minds may differ.

[MISkier]

@Horton, in that last frame when he is hitting the water, he is directly perpendicular to the boat with a tight line. He is fully extended and the ski is not turning (still going downcourse). His arm is outstretched over his head. I estimate he is extended at least 8 feet from handle to ski. He only needs about 4 feet to be completely outside the buoy llne. I don’t think he crossed the 1/2 buoy quadrant.

[Horton]

I am sticking to my argument but I am ready for someone to prove me wrong with some mathy stuff. I would love to see some drone footage or down the ball line footage.

 

if you listen to Robert Hazelwood and Tony at 1/4 speed they sound SUPER drunk.

[Horton]

 

[klindy]

It’s really close @horton and my judgement call says 1/4. I’ll accept any other reasonable 1/2 call too. Either way this is a perfect example of how it IS possible to score 1/4. True that the exact timing is important. Absolutely certain that is was on the ski, with the handle AND outside the buoy.

[MISkier]

That angle convinces me of the 1/4. If you are looking for a clue in the spray, don't be persuaded by the spray that is emanating from his calves as he makes his final contact with the water. It is creating a spray a foot or so closer toward the camera from the spray created by the ski. I see it even better in motion.

[JackQ]

@MISkier ,He is not perfectly perpendicular to the boat, he was close but not there at the apex of the turn, but 10 feet later he is bleeding off speed but the boat is not and therefore narrower.

[MISkier]

@JackQ, about a foot or two later, he is on his back and that pass is over. When he starts bleeding speed, he has been unsupported by the ski for a bit.

[Than_Bogan]

In that frame that @Horton has captured, his bindings are well into the 1/2 zone. They only have to cross the buoy line.

 

BUT I think the argument here is when exactly has he fallen? One of the other perspectives makes it seem like that moment is long after he has lost skiing position (which is never regained).

 

In the end, it's too close to be sure it's a 1/4, so I'd call 1/2. But it's close.

[MISkier]

@Than_Bogan, it is not the bindings that determine it. It is the "front foot of the skier". So, the amount of space from the skier's ankle (which is not the foot) to the top of the binding at the shin is not valid. From the ankle below to the ski is the portion that counts and it might not be inside the buoy line. Otherwise, we will start to see bindings up to just below the kneecap.

[Than_Bogan]

I meant his *entire* bindings, which likely include his foot. :)

 

If you believe that position can happen that far after the ball at 41 without the feet inside the line, then we disagree.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

based on the snapshots horton posted, its definitely 1/2. NFW you can be on a 38 0r shorter rope and be in that position past the buoy and not be inside the buoy line.

 

I absolutely love Monday morning quarterbacking and internet judging! :D

[Kelvin]

@horton, " I would love to see some drone footage or down the ball line footage."

 

Shhhh!! Next thing you know, this will be a requirement at all record tournaments :)

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield agree but second guessing how it could be 1/4.

 

99.9999% sure it is 1/2 but we can not see where the ball line really is.

 

is interesting

[klindy]

@Bruce_Butterfield even rocket scientists get it wrong once in a while!! ?

[JackQ]

Both tower judges and boat judge, called 2 1/2, the replay official (me) reviewed the TWBC higher resolution slow motion from three different cameras, and there wasn’t definitive evidence to overturn. But a valid debate.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Ok so for the internet judges and with the pics that Horton and gloersen posted, the skier has the handle and weight is supported by the ski approximately 15’ past the buoy. Clearly 1/2 from the perspective provided.

 

IMHO the problem is far too many senior judges have never come close to scoring 1/4 and have no clue outside the rule book, of what it is necessary to score 1/4.

[Horton]

@JackQ from any of those angles could you see if his feet had moved inside the ball line? My guess is there wasn't. My other assumption is if the math geeks got a hold of this that they would ascertain from the fact the line was tight & the boat had moved down the lake - the boat pulled Fred inside the line.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Umm. Why is this a close call? Again from the limited pics he is way past the buoy with a tight line, handle in hand, “in skiing position” , well inside the buoy line. Sorry, I don’t get why this is close.

 

@klindy rocketscientists are wrong more often than we really need to know?

[ScottScott]

From the time he passed the buoy he got more and more laid out and stretched out and his ski got farther and farther from the handle in each frame. I don't think the ski ever started getting closer to the boat. I give 1/4

[jimski]

1/2

[LeonL]

I say 3.5 just based on the near impossibility of the ski remaining outside the buoy line @41 and the skier still supported the ski at that distance past the buoy.

[klindy]

@ral typo on the time stamp - 3:03:40.

 

Also, remember the ride is over as soon as he "falls", which is when he's is no longer supported by his ski. Sliding another 50' down the lake is all irrelevant.

[Jody_Seal]

@klindy

What? No point for the dismount???

[Than_Bogan]

@Bruce_Butterfield When the fall occurs is the "discussion." Otherwise I would agree clear 0.5. (I personally still day 0.5, but not CLEAR 0.5 due to when one might declare the fall to have occured.)

[disland]

rule 1.1.2.3.4.5678 lasers at 90 degree angles with GPS pucks for each buoy with video feed to IWWF headquarters where the international panel of judges will relay their decision to the designated on site laser judge, who cant be doing anything else and must be supervised by the chief judge who also cant be judging anything else.

[klindy]

@Jody_Seal absolutely points for the dismount! Amazing he got the ski outside the buoy in any way at all!

[markn]

Freddie's skiing was just amazing. Congrats to him for the win. Super Classy guy and a great diplomat for the sport. Also, there is a video of Mapple at 41 off (at West Palm) falling similarly at 3 ball, sliding on his back at least 15-20 feet and sliding around, somehow getting the ski back between him and the boat and standing up to score 3. Evidently the ride is not over when you fall if you were the GOAT!!

[6balls]

1/2. Horton told me to never call 1/4 :wink:

[klindy]

@markn The rule specifically says it is not a fall "if you regain skiing position". In Mapple's case, he did. In Freddie's case, he never did regain skiing position.

 

Perhaps a questions should where the "fall" actually occurred for Freddie? It happens well before he let go of the handle.

[ScottScott]

Here where he finally came to a stop, he's no farther in than the buoy waaayyyy back there. He was still advancing on the boat while sliding.....not moving in.

 

[LeonL]

Just me, or my device but I can't see the buoy. Difficult angle to see where he is in comparison to buoy line.

[lpskier]

Tie goes to the runner.

[MISkier]

@LeonL, you're right. It is hard to see. But, I think it is here (zoom in and see the red circle I added):

 

 

[klindy]

@lpskier there is no tie. Make a call. In this case I respect those who call 1/2. That said, I would have called it a 1/4 based on where he was when he 'fell' (no longer supported by the ski). In my opinion he was still headed outbound or at best down the course. Where his front binding was located was outside the buoy line in my opinion.

[ScottScott]

@LeonL Yeah, it doesn't come through in this still very well. If you zoom in there are hints of some orange. If you watch the video up to that point it shows a little better. I think @MISkier has the spot.