Easiest way to make pro skiing more compelling viewing

[Than_Bogan]

Men can ski no longer than 12m.

Women can ski no longer than 13m.

 

As a high jumper and pole vaulter and waterskier, I get the need to have some "bars" that you can complete easily to get into the groove. But think about this: Nate's typical tournament round is equal to what many clubs set as their maximum number of passes for a practice set: 6. (I didn't quite believe it either. Count 'em up.)

 

To have pro skiing, when there is a tie-break between being friendly to peak performance vs. The Show, the show should usually win.

 

Maybe there are compelling reasons not to impose the limits I'm suggesting, but as we are entering into a new era of webcast pro skiing, it seems worth considering.

[Obrienslalom]

From strictly a spectator that squeezes in watching skiing on the weekends, I tend to watch on delay and skip to 38 or 39 off. That is unless there is a pro announcer that I might learn something from.

[OldboyII]

In this logic all tournaments in any sport should start straight from 1/2 finals.

[NameUnavailable]

With Web you can do anything for viewing....I promoted 2 Coors Light stops way back when, and I can tell you to get the sponsors and crowd it was more of a show...constant entertainment. It was less about the performance (seldom a private lake). Case and point Wichita, KS...sea walls and a current, but 10k plus spectators. That sells to sponsors, using their product during the competition sells to sponsors...Sponsors bring the cash for the skiers. You have to shorten enough to keep the viewer engaged, but also bring back the money for these competitors.

[BraceMaker]

Stillwater finals the most glaring thing was it wasnt like people were ready on the dock. suited and ready.

 

The video is watching the next skiers show up and powwow. Running order not decided. i get it on site that pace isn't needed. But on a webcast it sure is boring to watch a starting dock for 10 minutes.

 

Not as concerned about number of passes although I could see it get out of hand. But if you make some fixed pass rule like 4 passes then someone with a chance of running 41 is going off the dock with a 38 off opener.

 

The fix as I see it is to have B roll from other tournaments particularly the non televised ones. if you could have the news recap of what happened at other events ready to run even presented I bet people on site would rather have that announced than a reminder as to how a slalom course works.

[jhughes]

@Than_Bogan I was JUST kinda having the same thought. In what sport do you get "warm ups" in your actual tournament? Could you imagine pro golf rounds where the first 9 holes were at a muni par 3 course before they hit the real course? Tennis where you'd start with a light volley back and fourth for the first 20 minutes? A NFL game where the first few plays are flag football? Every time I heard the announcer say "and this is really just a warm up pass" I thought "then why is it in a tournament?".

 

Whenever I'm watching any pro event I'm not paying attention until 39 with the guys and 38 with the gals.

[BrennanKMN]

While I understand the point of making it more compelling to the majority of viewers, I am surprised by the number of people here that are only interested in 38 and shorter passes.

 

I really enjoy watching both men and women run 28, 32, and 35, mostly because as someone working on 35 I learn a ton. Frankly I do the exact opposite of most of you, I watch the first 2-3 passes and skip the rest when I am watching the recorded webcast. I might watch the finals all the way through, but for the first round or two I enjoy watching it as a teaching tool for myself.

[fu_man]

From a spectator perspective I totally agree. Starting at -32 made more sense in the "old days" on tour stops where conditions were mediocre and max scores were into -38 or 39. However with the ability of current skiers needing to ski deep into -41 or running it to win, -32 seems unnecessary. Heck, even starting at -38 for the finals might shake things up a bit.

[klindy]

@jhughes That may be the case with slalom but for jump and tricks it's game on from the beginning. Relating your golf/tennis analogy to slalom, they don't play the same golf hole 4-6 time with the tee being 50 yards farther back either. Nor do they make the tennis court two feet shorter/narrower per game.

 

Boxers take 12-15 rounds to wear down enough to start seeing a winner. Runners/cyclists tend to tire as physical conditioning and stamina begins to matter. For team sports you can make the case for football, basketball and baseball that the sports have rules 'raise the intensity and drama' near the end - pitching changes, strategic use of fouls, time-outs and player changes.

 

For slalom specifically in later rounds the starting speed is routinely set higher than prelims. Perhaps it's not high enough.

[klindy]

@BraceMaker I don't fully understand your comment? We never had one skier who was told they were late or to hurry up. The weather was quite cool and most skiers tended to huddle up behind the shed on the starting dock or in a nearby house. Also, the skier tent was literally directly behind the camera at the end of the lake which was steps from the dock.

 

Point taken about the continuity of the webcast. @Kelvin can chime in but we reminded the camera operators to continuously "look for content" even between passes and between skiers. Let the broadcast directing pick what looked best. This was relatively "laid back" in the sense that we were not pressed hard for time.

 

In terms of 'pow wow's' etc, Just like any dock there is some of that which always happens. We spent a lot of effort to get the skier info and put it on the white board for boat. Also, since we were lean on officials, most worked every event in one capacity or another. Sometimes human needs breaks are kind of important. Getting the crew back into the boat took a couple minutes.

 

Every one was cognizant that the event was webcast and we worked diligently to keep things moving.

[BraceMaker]

@klindy my point is that on site rythmn feels very different to a webcast where your average viewer is going to go off to a different browser or channel surf or whatever. on site Im sure things felt normal and it would have been rude to say hey whitney get your butt on the dock now. but for webcast viewing I was watching on my phone so 10 minutes Im tossing the phone in my pocket and getting back to whatever else.

 

 

 

@jhughes other sports there is infrastructure to warm up a pro golfer may have spent as much time as needed on a practice green or driving range before hand as they wanted. Downhill ski racers don't arrive at the site show up at the top toss on their boots and give it a blind go. Get that they are pro skiers but its not as if all the skiers show up a week early to ski the site a few times a day for a week.

 

Perhaps the best solution would be some form of opener handicap where based on scores you would be penalized for not opening at a certain pass. The full pass aspect may be too digital to pull that off. For instance if you had a rule that opener must be x below your ranking score. Nate is currently 121.75 if you said 4 passes is 24 points his opener would be at 97.75 which falls in 35 off. where as JT at 119.5 in 2nd would be allowed a 32 off opener. Anyone below about 10th place on OM would be allowed a 28 off opener.

 

Then you could use this and give people an option such as for +.5 per pass you can opt to open shorter. or for a penalty open longer. 10th place guy could get 1 full ball bonus by opening 2 passes up on the required score.

 

other options? maybe let people gamble for a reride?

 

 

[DW]

This may be a 'be careful what you ask for' topic. If you look at other sports that have graduated to improve the electronic viewing experience (TV, YouTube, etc) they come with a cost to the on site spectator and performers. Whether it be event cadence to keep the action going or breaks for required commercials, pro events that cater to the TV audience lose a lot of at site enjoyment when TV viewing is the high priority requirement. Just my humble opinion, current pro water ski events cater to the skiers and at this time, I think that is the appropriate approach. If you go down the path of entertainment and making watching a tournament interesting to more of the masses, there would need to be significant changes to keep the non hard core spectator interested. At that point, it puts a lot of stress on the competitors and it becomes a lot less enjoyable.

[BraceMaker]

Wild idea for the sport, but what if when you miss so long as you ride it out you get a crack at the next line for tie breaker?

 

I think we all like seeing shorter line passes and not openers.

 

If someone gets 3@41 I don't not want to see a crack at 43 even if it doesnt score but we don't allow it and there is no reason for someone to do it.

so rewrite the rule. your score is your miss and if you ride it out you come back on the next pass for a tie breaker score.

 

It would add some time per skier but eliminate total air time by avoiding run offs. it also gives more short line coverage.

 

Official score to your miss as it currently is but a side pot for top score.

 

Problem with the idea?

 

 

 

[Cent]

Agree with DW

[liquid d]

It's simple to make it more exciting to view on TV. The footage must be edited for tv. We are so used to live coverage of everything, and things take time. A golf tournament takes 20+ hours to play...do we see every shot? of course not. But that's for TV's sake.

No warmup, and jump into 38 off...stupid.

[ral]

I do not have any issues with runoffs.

 

They are actually in line with @Than_Bogan ’s initial idea, and one of the exciting parts in a tournament.

 

An extra pass for every skier will make things longer, more painful to watch, confusing and slower that runoffs (all get 1, not just the occasional tie for qualifying and first place).

[2Valve]

Bring back Helena Kjellander. <3

[Wish]

Off topic a tad but there’s made for TV and there’s not. @liquid d is right. If I do watch I watch delayed as others have said to make it TV worthy by fast forwarding. But, one could make it very exciting for TV even for those that know nothing. He who falls first or misses loses. Simple, fast paced and visually exciting. Made for TV . Perhaps a few pro tour stops like that. Accommodating 2 parallel courses would be the biggest challenge.

 

[BraceMaker]

@ral so I don't want it always - its pro events only. No one wants to see a M3 skier take a 35 when they missed their 32.

 

Pro skiers travel to these events and are the "main show" and if we agree that we're not really interested in their opener passes. So what hours of coverage to see 16 or 32 seconds worth of skiing that we're interested in?

 

At the Stillwater Nate comes back at 41 scoring a full pass and drops at the dock. He wins. That's as anti-climatic as you can get. Full pass and no attempt at the next line? No reason to because the win is achieved, maybe the event isn't going to generate a record, maybe its behind the wrong boat so not gonna ski it. But if the question is how do we make it more interesting to watch the answer is to make the middle of the pack competition more compelling.

 

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

Or as I compose that - here's another one - run the top seeded skiers first based on their established ranking.

 

Then if they want to win the event they don't know what the competition will throw down and are incentivized to run the next pass and not stand up or ride it out for the win.

[Vernon Reeve]

Maybe they should have a 42 off length, since 43 seems so unattainable. Might be interesting to see if anyone can run it.

[eyepeeler]

@NameUnavailable We were at Wichita in '86 for the pro tour. Great crowd roar from 10,000 as the skier went from ball to ball down the course. That was a great time and great tournament. I still have the original program from that tournament.

[Than_Bogan]

@Vernon Reeve Many of us have been calling for a 10m line for years. It makes sense. One of the first times it was brought up was in this thread (that started out a bit insane but got better): https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/13897/its-time-to-change-the-rope-lengths

 

@BraceMaker I don't think we want any rule that incentivizes performing worse intentionally, which that one would so that you can get the advantage of going later in a future more important tournament.

[ALPJr]

Get a few sponsors to pony up and give @TonyLightfoot and WSBC a 30-60 minute, weekly slot on ESPN during the summer. Destined to be a hit!

[Cnewbert]

With the high quality of the co-announcers the TWBC features… Matt Rini, Cory Vaughn etc…. I’d like to see more slo-mo replay and stop action with these experts using a telestrator to analyze and illustrate critical aspects of the skiers run… what worked both for them and against them. The time between passes allows plenty of time for this and it would make the subtleties of the sport more understandable to a wider audience aside from filling the down time more productively than the largely fluff interviews.

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@Than_Bogan just to be clear you feel the Open rated skiers will tank their bouy average all season long to sandbag for running order?

 

Because if thats the case just have a coin toss before the event for reverse running order.

 

My instinct is that the reverse order will force the top guys to throw down scores then they have a target on their backs the rest of the day.

[vtmecheng]

When a skier is done with their set, the next should be jumping in the water and ready as soon as the boat is back and their handle is hooked up. Better yet, two boats so everything is set up and ready for the next skier. Just hop in, wait the time needed for the water to calm, and the next skier is going. Small savings add up. I also like the idea of having more slow motion commentary by other pros between passes. I really liked the few times that was done this year. Football has a lot of down time but it’s filled with commentary, info about the last play, and what is likely coming. That keeps people’s interest.

 

I do like the idea to force a starting line length for the pros. It would keep things moving and faster and be more exciting.

[ForrestGump]

Bring back the Warp girls and say FU to political correctness?

[chrislandy]

I find the head to head slalom is very entertaining, and makes it a fast section of the comp.

 

If you have 20 mens slalom waiting on the dock, it's going to take a long time to get through them all, especially with 2 rounds then finals.

 

to speed up the opening sections, pass limits seem to work relatively well, say 2 warm up passes then 1 90% pass + one if you make it through

 

for the youtube/TV live stuff, it's the infill that makes it, it doesn't matter what sport it is - but the VFX cost $$$$$ to do live interactive replays with overlaid live graphics (arc tracking etc), by the sounds of it, the comps are struggling to raise the money for what they already provide (which is excellent)

[MrJones]

It's the commentators that make or break it for me. The Lake 38 event were spot on. I'm watching to see an competitive event, but also to learn. Having knowledgeable people break down each skier from those camera angles was solid viewing.

[Dano]

For tv How about recorded viewing rather than live with the down time trimmed out. Get the whole day or weekend down to just 2 hours. I don’t know what went wrong back in the 90’s but I can remember watching tournaments on ESPN. I think it was called hot summer nights. If we could just get back to that I would watch every single one.

[Wish]

Hot Summer Nights was cool and all but back then there was little to no access to tournament results. So you didn’t know who won before the show was aired. Now it’s hard not to stumble on results almost in real time creating a spoiler. And they made it appealing to the masses by showing almost a life style with folks on the beach having a great time with beer sponsorship and saying words that made sense like ....the rope is now 37 feet long vs explaining how much rope is coiled on the floor of the boat.

[BraceMaker]

waterskiing was the extreme sport too which didnt hurt the appeal.

[igkya]

@Wish Hot Summer Nights was cool :p Agree on going back to line lengths instead of line off.

[Cooper_Trelawney]

Hot Summer Nights worked at the right time. ESPN was young and needed midweek programming. Healthy, attractive athletes in bathing suits didn't hurt. Waterskiing was still king of the beach. No wakeboarding or wake surfing. Ski boats were sporty, fun and the top of the food chain. They are still sporty but all the tech make them a little less fun and now consumers can buy wake tubs that hold more friends, feel more luxurious, etc. Kids back then didn't spend their summer on a tablet playing games or wake surfing but instead skied. We skied every lake, river and waterway we could. We skied behind tournament boats, i/o's, bass boats and Jon boats. Anything worked. We loved seeing the pros on tour. It was the heyday for sure!

 

Today I see a resurgence. The webcasts are really nice! There is increased competition in every event - both Male and female- and the athletes are incredibly talented. Just keep moving forward. Seems like it is moving towards something better.

[Dano]

@Wish was right. Hot summer nights sold a lifestyle. If you want to bring spectators back you have to sell the lifestyle. It's one thing to host tournaments, it's entirely different to promote the tournaments as an event that everybody wants to attend. Hot summer nights made things look like a party was happening and "some people are doing cool things on skis too." The shore lines looked like the place to be for anybody looking to have fun. I don't really know what goes into hosting a tournament currently. Are organizers out there informing and hyping up the surrounding communities? Is there any advertising taking place? Is there anything at the lake for the spectators? A fun way to stay cool? Beer Gardens? Good food, good entertainment, and hot sun shouldn't be too hard to sell. wakeboarding took off in the 90's as the new extreme sport. Snowboarders could easily relate to it and already had a culture to support it. Big jumps are cool and impressive, the boats could hold more people and the speeds were much slower. Surfing is easy and everybody can enjoy it. But when I see ads for both sports i see company's selling the lifestyle not so much the sport, they show somebody riding a wave and then the camera pans to the people on the boat seemingly having the time of their lives watching the surfer. So the consumer sees "if I learn to surf or buy a boat, this lifestyle could be mine". on my local lakes I see surf boats enjoying the lifestyle, loud music, cold drinks, loads of people, and rarely is anybody surfing. Point is they bought all the gear, the boat, the boards, the ropes, the lifejackets, etc.... when really all they wanted was a boat, music, and the ability to say they spent the day "surfing".

 

[rayn]

I think the best we can hope for is the TWBC keeps getting better and they continue to broadcast these events.

 

I think an improvement and something that would keep the "down" time to a minimum is "get to know you" segments with the skiers. Call it long form interviews about their daily life. For example Regina balancing skiing and owning a business. Vennesa and Whitney about being a parent and how it affects training. Brooke about going to school and its advantages and disadvantages when competing in pro events, etc. In individual sports the audience wants to get to know the participants. It could be a 45 second intro prior to the first pass, and then another 30 second inbetween. Sprinkle in technique thoughts or favorite places to ski. Talk about their coaching or training routines. People root for people they find compelling. At a minimum the athletes should be getting the announcers written material to use so we can get to know them better.

[thager]

Recognition starts long before the competition. Even if a person likes skiing why would one go to a Pro Tournament to watch people they've never even heard of or seen even on social media? Back in the olden days the waterski mags etc. listed who each skier in a picture/story was. Cool posters had the name of who it was on the poster. Now, there's a picture and maybe a list of some names on social media. Can't put a name to a face. If a person didn't know who was who previously, forget it. It's just a picture and a separate list of names. Probably a separate subject but even the basic PR for our sport flat out sucks!

[BraceMaker]

from that perspective y'all should probably increase your interaction with the social media presence of HO, flow point, Matteo, Ms. Montevon, and of course the brands, action etc.

 

The lifestyle is best sold by getting exposure.

 

hell there was a post yesterday by parsons project the skier is a literal model and not one photo on her page of her skiing

 

bet there would be if it got attention not to trigger any instagram aggression.

[mike_mapple]

4 passes to get your max score, or one fall/incomplete pass...For instance I could not go off the dock and get 1 @43 that would score me at 1@32 ect...So if you wanted to run into 43, you would ideally have to complete a 41.

 

Most if not all the top pros can go off the dock at 35/38 and be ok, or it would be reason to start at 32 and opt up to 38 if you wanted.

 

my .02

[Svfara_1]

A new juicy fruit commercial maybe??

[Vernon Reeve]

A new juicy fruit commercial, according to the current lifestyle, would be some non-athletic looking person surfing behind a boat, and being handed a stick of juicy fruit gum from the swim platform. (Same concept for beer commercials).

[Wish]

@Vernon Reeve thank goodness you didn’t identify the wakesurfer as some guy or gal and stuck with “person”

[Fastguy888]

Buoy counts are not sexy nor sell the sport beyond hardcore Ballers like ourselves; scores are essential to keep people coming back to the next event, to see how a skier they enjoyed did and set the drama, but not the hook. Slalom is an incredibly beautiful spectacle; a dance that includes speed, water, cool boats and fit humans in bathing suites trying to balance all the forces. There is more than enough going on that it could be entertaining to people that have never water skied; however, if pro events broadcast get tunnel vision to the scores, it will keep many from tuning in. As others have said; sell the lifestyle and the scores will be what has them coming back.

 

Just like the broadcast our personal conversations, or Social Media post, should not be about your buoy count if trying to appeal beyond your skiing buddies.

 

Important to note that ESPN or NBC are no longer a validation of a sports clout or popularity. YouTube and Social Media Likes and Views are probably more important to a younger generation and advertiser.