Are the 2 side troughs deeper behind the CC deeper than those of other major boat makers ?

[swbca]

I have heard first hand from experienced M7 and M8 skiers that they are thankful to make their 22off opening pass in tournaments behind the new Correct Craft. All of their practice is behind a CC196. I know CC has done a lot of work to smooth out the wake directly behind the boat but what about the depth of the 2 side troughs ? Related to hull displacement while underway.

 

Whitney was really going for it leading to the fall in the World Tournament, but would a different boat have a made difference ? Usually the wake at very short line at 34mph is a barely noticeable when watching top skiers. The video shows she got in a bad position before the wake, but it may not have needed to end in a fall.

 

This question isn't a privacy issue . . her family has posted it all on Facebook.

[Broussard]

You failed to mention what boat you are referring to.

[swbca]

@Broussard I have added that it was in the 2021 World Tournament.

[slow]

Lets beat a dead horse.

[Horton]

@swbca are you asking if the wakes and troughs are hard behind the new Ski Nautique at slower speeds?

 

I'm unaware of any complaints about the trough. I don't think the wakes are particularly bad but the rooster tail is distinct and hard at some rope length and boat speeds.

 

The picture in your original post with the skiers knees in their chin does not necessarily mean the wakes were good or bad.

 

 

[Mastercrafter]

.

 

 

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

We sure that wasn't a carp?

[jhughes]

22/34 on the new Nautique is an eye opener. No doubt. 28 and 32 seemed fine last time I skied one.

[The_MS]

No

[Nashotah]

The 22 off “problem” is easily solved. Simply input 28 off into the screen and boom! Problem solved. Butter

[skierjp]

@Nashotah Stay on edge and pull through both wakes, keep the handle close to your hip BOOM, problem solved.

Moving Micro Tuners to 28 off while at 22 off is not legal in tournaments

[Nashotah]

Skierjp, you absolutely nailed it and are obviously correct about tournament skiing. Agree with you 100%. I guess I’ve just grown tired of the grumbling and figured that for a lot of non tournament skiers that this suggestion would help “ease the pain”

[Windsurfnut]

I have question about the legality of changing the tuners to 28 off on a 22 off pass. Why is that not legal?

If Nautique decided to do a software change mid year that set the 22off pass to use what is currently the 28 off setting would that be legal?

 

Just curious cause I have no idea.

[MISkier]

I did not locate anything in the rule book prohibiting a request for microtuner setting other than that matching the actual rope length for the pass to be attempted.

 

What I saw in the rule book was in reference to when a re-ride would be given for receiving a microtuner setting other than what was requested. The basic premise was that a skier receiving a microtuner setting different than their request would only get a re-ride if the microtuner deployment characteristic of that setting did not match their requested setting in the microtuner matrix from Nautique. For example, if their desired setting had microtuners deployed and the setting received did not, then a re-ride was possible.

[UWSkier]

When you have 4 women getting into 41 off for the first time in history a week earlier without microtuners, it makes them seem kindof pointless IMO. Unnecessary complexity. I am an engineer who likes complex things and can applaud CC for pushing the envelope, but these things strike me as an answer in search of a question...

[Jody_Seal]

@UWSkier Thank you!!

[Drago]

@Windsurfnut @MISkier

The skier doesn't request a microtuner tab setting, the driver enters the skier's line length, and the tabs deploy, or not, according to the speed and line length. The driver can choose to have the boat automatically advance the line lengths (and therefore microtuners), or manually enter line length after each pass. I suppose the rule is worded that way to prevent protests all day long, but it certainly would be easier without the whole thing.

(Also, I suppose, a driver could just set the line length on manual/ -38 all day and "forget" to enter actual line lengths to keep the tabs down...)

I've skied two different Nautiques, one felt super sweet, the other felt quite the opposite. Different molds? Tabs were up? A different rope "optimized" to a 160# skier? I'll never know. Probably octane ;)

[The_MS]

Octane for sure

[MISkier]

@Drago, I know that the skier doesn't have to ask for the microtuners to be set to match their attempt (it is assumed the driver will do that), but the rules don't seem to preclude a skier from explicitly asking for a setting or asking for a setting that differs from the rope length to be attempted. In the Zero Off section, a matrix states who can choose various settings in ZO and what the defaults are when no specific preference is communicated. But, I did not see an analogous matrix for microtuners. This is what is stated for microtuners:

 

Nautique Hydrogate & MicroTuners – 2019 & Later

The Nautique Hydrogate has 11 settings (Zero to Ten – inclusive).

• Slalom: The gate will remain in the slalom mode. Microtuners - There will be NO RE-RIDES for a setting different than requested, as long as the adjustment for the line length is within the Matrix provided by the company. If a rope length is selected that changes the MicroTuner setting (for example the proper rope length should have had the MicroTuners deployed and the chosen length did not deploy them), then a reride will be allowed. If a complete pass was made, there will be no reride.

• Tricks: The Trick Hydrogate will be 0 to 10. The default setting is Trick mode (10). The Hydrogate may be adjusted to a setting from 0 to 10 of Slalom (0), Middle 1 to 9 or Trick mode (10). The skier may choose to change the setting between passes.

• Jump: The Jump Hydrogate will be 0 to 10. The default setting is Jump mode (10). The Hydrogate may be adjusted to a setting of Slalom (0), Middle 1 to 9 or Jump mode 10. It is the skier’s responsibility to inform the boat crew his Hydrogate setting prior to leaving the dock. It will remain in that position for his/her turn.

 

It does not say who is doing the requesting or that the request must conform to the rope length of the pass being attempted.

[lpskier]

One of the design features of the current Nautique is a flatter surface directly behind the boat at -32 and shorter. Older hull designs left a sometimes significant trough at centerline. A skier could go downhill into the trough and then come uphill out, or more likely lose contact with the water and get pulled down course for that instant. The idea was to flatten out that indentation and cure that problem. That benefit is not received by skiers going longer than -32.

[dchristman]

You seem fairly obsessed with wakes. All ski boats have them. Perhaps you need to give cable skiing a go to be ultimately satisfied.

[Drago]

I guess I don't see a "request", as "requested within the matrix" would not be a request, and I stand corrected on the re-ride (I think that was the first-year rule and I haven't seen a "new nautique " in 3 years.

It all emphasizes @UWSkier and @Jody_Seal 's point: it would be better not to have a choice.

 

4) 10.10E5b. When the 2019 Nautique or newer is used in slalom, the MicroTuners and Hydrogate automatically deploy. If the incorrect line length on the display was selected but is within the matrix supplied by Nautique, there will be no reride. If a rope length is selected for which the MicroTuners are not what the Matrix recommends, a reride may be allowed if an incomplete pass.

5) AWSA/IWWF Differences:

A5: Speed Control (IWWF 5.02f/AWSA 8.10): IWWF requires that a written record of speed control settings for World Championships and changes thereto be maintained. AWSA contains no such provisions.

[MISkier]

So, in looking at both the AWSA rules and the IWWF section above, I didn't see anything that specified a skier could not select their preferred microtuner setting.

 

Would a driver allow and enter the setting as requested by the skier, even if it differed from their actual rope length? Would a Chief Judge allow it as well? I would think they could both allow it, given what is written in the rules. Just like a Zero Off setting, it would be available for all skiers to use and would not provide any one skier a particular advantage that the other skiers did not also have.

[skierjp]

The key phrase is “Within the Matrix” This is how the boat was tested and approved by AWSA. No different then a skier asking for a different Hydrogate position in Slalom, not allowed. As a driver, pulling a skier at 55k (34mph) once the skier runs 28 off ( Micro Tuners down ) I’m not required to move the line length selection ( 32, 35 etc ) because the Micro Tuners are down for all the line lengths past 28.

 

 

[dchristman]

I'd like a 22-C1-T28-B25%-K55 please, mr. driver.

[Jody_Seal]

Smoke an mirrors for sure!

I suggested to a promo/ dealer that they would do much better if they just submitted the 200 for tournament use and they would sell a hell of a lot more ski boats.. deaf ears!!

[MISkier]

@skierjp, I think these are what you are referring to:

 

There will be NO RE-RIDES for a setting different than requested, as long as the adjustment for the line length is within the Matrix provided by the company.

 

and/or

 

If the incorrect line length on the display was selected but is within the matrix supplied by Nautique, there will be no reride. If a rope length is selected for which the MicroTuners are not what the Matrix recommends, a reride may be allowed if an incomplete pass.

 

I'm not sure if you are reading those lines as the selected setting must be within that matrix or will be invalid/disallowed.

 

I am reading those lines as the re-ride is not offered if the boat driver's actual setting input and the desired/target setting have the same microtuner deployment result in the matrix, regardless of whether the setting was input at the driver's or skier's selection. The text seems to talk about when a re-ride can be offered and does not appear (to me) to address whether or not the attempted pass can be allowed under skier-selected microtuner settings.

 

As you pointed out, the rules do state that the hydrogate must remain in slalom mode, so that is explicitly covered. But, I disagree that the microtuner selection is no different, since there is nothing indicating that the settings chosen must match the rope length and cannot be specified by the skier.

 

If AWSA wants to preclude skier preference in microtuner setting selection and enforce a setting matching rope length, I don't think the current text in the rule book covers it.

[Drago]

We often have to make assumptions on rules because they are not well-written or incomplete. As a sr driver, I've always assumed the skier cannot chose whether the tabs are down or up. It doesn't say they can't choose, however "within the matrix" essentially makes it settled (skier cannot ask for tabs down at -22 if the matrix says they are to be up at -22)

[MISkier]

I interpreted the matrix supplied by Nautique to be used to determine the deployment state of the microtuners, so that questions about setting mistakes can be answered. I did not see it the same as the ZBS matrix or find anything stating that settings selections follow restrictions implied by that matrix.

[skierjp]

Just a FYI about Micro Tuners, they are either up (fully retracted ) or down ( fully down ) there is no between. I’m pretty sure most skiers on this forum are aware of that.

[skierjp]

@MISkier Nautique Hydrogate & MicroTuners – 2019 & Later

The Nautique Hydrogate has 11 settings (Zero to Ten – inclusive).

• Slalom: The gate will remain in the slalom mode. Microtuners - There will be NO RE-RIDES for a setting different than requested, as long as the adjustment for the line length is within the Matrix provided by the company. If a rope length is selected that changes the MicroTuner setting (for example the proper rope length should have had the MicroTuners deployed and the chosen length did not deploy them), then a reride will be allowed. If a complete pass was made, there will be no reride.

[MISkier]

Yes. The matrix also denotes only two settings - engaged and disengaged.

[MISkier]

@skierjp, I posted that before. But, it appears to only reference re-rides.

 

The part where it talks about the “adjustment for the line length is within the matrix” is referring to the position of the microtuners on the actual setting used for the pass in comparison to the setting requested/desired for the pass. You can see them clarify that this is to compare what the skier got with what was desired by their next sentence, which provides an example of when a mistake in the setting might grant a re-ride.

[skierjp]

@MISkier ?

[6balls]

Seems an unneccessary complexity. MC and 'Bu throw nice wakes...shoot a CC 196 throws great wakes. Glad I have my bubble butt SN.

[CGSki]

This doesn’t make sense to me. If the wake at 22off is better with the microtuners set to the 28off position, why wouldn’t nautique be using that configuration in their matrix?

[Nashotah]

That is beyond me but as an owner I can only relay the feedback I get from ski partners that ski the 22 off length. Personally, I don’t really feel the difference.

[Nashotah]

I go back to skierjp’s comments earlier in this thread. Get on edge, handle to hip and pull through wakes. No big deal. There is a hell of a lot more to a good ski boat than a bump at 22 off.

[Nashotah]

Am I biased to the Ski Nautique? Not really. I think all three are fantastic to ski. Just sold a 2019 TXI to a good friend. Great boat. If pressed, I can come up with some criticism of the TXI but it is nitpicking. Prostar? Owned a 2017 and loved it. Could I find some some fault? Sure, but again. Nitpicking.

[Mrs_MS]

@CGSki Makes no sense to me either…..

15 AND 22 are much better with the micro tuners set at 28 off.

[ScottScott]

There's one way to eliminate all of this worrying about 22 and 28 off bumps and micro tuners and all that mess.....buy a Prostar.....

[skierjp]

Micro Tuners are down at 15 off at 32moh and slower

[BraceMaker]

@CGSki I suspect because when you really look at the chart for most speeds there are only maybe 2 or 3 lines when disengaged is on the matrix so they probably have a hull that needs the microtuners to perform @swbca 197 for instance.

 

But just saying hey our hull needs this doohickey but the doohickey is only engaged on specific line lengths and speeds sounds all high tech vs. hey we screwed a plate onto our hull and its better.