Baller thager Posted March 22, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 22, 2022 Those of you that know me personally know I am very bowlegged. So much so that I can run my fist between my knees without touching when my feet placed tightly together. Over the years this has caused me many performance issues, the worst of which is offside tail kick out. Basically, at an extreme body angle my right rear leg digs into the water and ejects the ski! The shorter the line the worse it got! Eventually I learned to moderate this by better technique, skiing wider tailed skis, rotating my right rear binding, using deeper than normal fin settings and even trying to wrap my knees together. Most of these moves achieved some limited success but I found some of these methods to be ridiculous, uncomfortable, and/or performance limiting at the least, and medically debilitating at worst. As a result of the induced hip pain I now run my bindings dead center front and back. Being a former snow skier and in search of a remedy, I started messing with canting. Canting a waterski binding is relatively easy thing to do. Initially, I just used plastic washers stacked up with slightly longer screws under the binding plate. I tried one side, then the other. I tried canting the front boot only, both boots, and back boot only on each side. I even tried canting both boots on opposite sides. For me, the best performance increases came from canting the front boot only on my offside. Both boots canted on my offside worked, forced my rear knee inward but also but caused me hip pain. Presently I am running 1/4 inch cant on my offside front boot. I plan on increasing that by 1/8 inch this spring to see if it helps. Mess around with canting. If it helps, keep it. If not discard it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted March 22, 2022 Author Baller Share Posted March 22, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jimbrake Posted March 22, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 22, 2022 @thager - I do that, too, but not to that extreme. If I don't cant my front (left) knee a little to the left (washers under the right side of the front binding), then any ski I try is heavy on the right edge. The effect is the ski turns too hard to the right and not hard enough to the left. That sounds like I'm knock-knee'd but I'm not. Weird. I just need my left knee to be slightly left of the center of the ski for the ski to be "balanced" left and right. If I was a little more obsessed I'd make a series of angled plastic shims to insert under the front plate - like fractions of degrees to figure out which angle is best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller teammalibu Posted March 22, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 22, 2022 Here's to swimmin with bowlegged women, come on down and hang with the retired bunch and try some of your mad science! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dchristman Posted March 22, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 22, 2022 One might say you are wont to cant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Bruce_Butterfield Posted March 23, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted March 23, 2022 I always thought LFF skiers were a little strange. Now you are proving it. If it was easy, they would call it Wakeboarding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted March 23, 2022 Author Baller Share Posted March 23, 2022 @jimbrake It has improved my offside turn keeping the tip down and keeps my right leg from dragging in the water by reducing the bank angle required I think. Works exactly opposite of what I thought logically. My style is not as asymmetrically violent now. @teammalibu I plan to! I do weird science because I am cheap! @Bruce_Butterfield Many have known that for years! Ask MS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller S1Pitts Posted March 23, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 23, 2022 I have been canting my front binding since 2008 because i broke my ankle and it healed crooked. Cannot put pressure on the inside of my foot otherwise. Absolutely proves us LFF skiers are weird but we solve our problems any way we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted March 23, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted March 23, 2022 RFF and I cant the front:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ALPJr Posted March 23, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 23, 2022 I moved to double HO 95’s (1994) and then Animals(~2002) after a number of ankle sprains and a broken medial malleolus. What worked for me was lifting the front heal by mounting the back of the Animal front plate on top of the front of the rear plate. Lifted the front heal about 3/8”. After the Animals wore out I moved to 2017 double Vapors and they seem to have enough forward cant to suffice. Yes the Animals lasted 15 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted March 23, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted March 23, 2022 @thager I like the MOB plate for these needs. For years it was hard for me to get enough wedge as well as cant in my boots/binding. I can now insert a wedge / cant plate between the boot and the release plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted March 23, 2022 Author Baller Share Posted March 23, 2022 Nice! Good to see that others are using canting as part of their tuning tool bag. I know that @OTF at Micro-just was working on some prototype cant wedges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted March 23, 2022 Administrators Share Posted March 23, 2022 To be clear Jody has some extreme orthopedic issues. I do not recommend any of this sort of thing unless you are bio-mechanically a very hot mess. Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ProStah_Skiah Posted March 23, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 23, 2022 @Jody_Seal where did you find the angled material that you used to make your wedge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted March 23, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted March 23, 2022 @ProStah_Skiah The material is a plastic canted and angled on a belt sander. I would have disagree with Mr Horton in his assessment of these concepts. Cleaner and more reliable outcome vs sticking beauty washers under one side of the boot plate. The radar boot platform has potential for all kinds of secondary wedge or cant between either a standard boot plate or a release style like a MOB. I actually belive wedging is one area of binding /boot to ski technology that has been overlooked or just not explored.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RGilmore Posted March 24, 2022 Members Share Posted March 24, 2022 Canting with wedges is a well established science in the snow-skiing industry, and it works for ME just as well under my Vapor boots. Rather than being relegated to just "very hot messes", boot canting with wedges is universally respected among those who understand it (snow skiers). As always, just IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted March 24, 2022 Author Baller Share Posted March 24, 2022 I plan to fabricate a permanent full plate HDPE wedge cant once I find my final cant settings. Until then my plastic washers are cheap, effective, and easily changeable. Don't really care what it looks like in the short term. Cant keep up with the Jones anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted March 24, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted March 24, 2022 @thager - it will be interesting to get your feedback on the washers v wedge. 6 point loads v plate load (ski flex effect). I was thinking of a plastic strip as an option, leaving the center open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted March 24, 2022 Author Baller Share Posted March 24, 2022 @DW Good point! That had crossed my mind. Thinner HDPE has some flex but it would be easy enough to put kerfs and/or drill holes to honeycomb the interior to make it more flexible before I grind the angle. If I were to 3D print it that would be cheaper also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skialex Posted March 24, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 24, 2022 @thager now I want to cant too, but I was thinking of three angled stripes as @DW said. I have a 3d printer on the way… until then I’ll try something simple, like washers or something. Thanks for the idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RGilmore Posted March 24, 2022 Members Share Posted March 24, 2022 @thager @skialex If you live anywhere near a place where snow skiing is popular, take your Vapor boots to the best ski shop you can find. They'll have a device you can stand on with your boots on both feet that will determine the exact wedge angle you need for each leg. If you're an ORT user, take that along, but wear a thin sock with it, out of consideration for the ski tech's delicate sensibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted March 24, 2022 Author Baller Share Posted March 24, 2022 @RGilmore Thx for the suggestion. I do have a friend in the snow ski business that could do it if I asked. However, I learn more if I do it on my own. I love to tinker! This project has been going on for a couple years already. Last year I increased the cant by 1/8 inch and saw about a 3-4 buoy increase in performance over previous practice PB. My leg is now centered in the front boot where it is supposed to be. I am going to increase it another 1/8" this spring just to see if it helps or hurts over a period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted March 25, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted March 25, 2022 @RGilmore The canting machine works great in snow ski boots, but you don’t stand on your water ski with your feet next to one another like you do when you snow ski. When I get custom orthotics for my water ski, I get them molded with my left foot in front of my right, like on my slalom. When you do so (at least when I do so), I feel more pressure on the outside of my feet, and therefore I need more support under my arch on my water ski than in my snow ski boots. I suspect you would get similar dissimilar results on the canting machine if it was set up to test your balance with one foot in front of the other as opposed to side by side. Since the snow ski boot canting machine is not set up to work that way, I wouldn’t trust it’s results/recommendations for my slalom ski set up. That said, I am not opposed to the general proposition of canting; I just don’t think using the canting machine gives you good water ski information. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted March 25, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted March 25, 2022 @thager A few things I figured out with washers under one side is that it fatigued the mounting plate at the screw holes and allowed for excessive flex in the foot bed. Went through a couple binding plates in less then 2 years as they cracked around the screw holes. Years ago I rode fogman system. I had our machinest at correct craft mill a canted wedge to go under the front boot. Worked great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted March 25, 2022 Supporting Member Share Posted March 25, 2022 Fwiw, Jamie Beauchesne basically told me that canting was mandatory for genuine hard shells, and he had a whole system with strings taped to the knee and checking the angle of the hanging string vs. certain body parts. I've forgotten the details because I determined I was more of a soft boot guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller teammalibu Posted March 25, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 25, 2022 When I built wedge plates for a couple guys I would double side tape the nylon wedge to my adjustable angle base plate on the mill and fly cut the wedge to suit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted March 25, 2022 Author Baller Share Posted March 25, 2022 @teammalibu I could do a lot of neat stuff if I had your $ and equipment!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ALPJr Posted March 25, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 25, 2022 @Than_Bogan yes I remember a how to article or video that Jamie did on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted March 25, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted March 25, 2022 Check out the washer thread from a few years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RGilmore Posted March 25, 2022 Members Share Posted March 25, 2022 @lpskier I disagree. In my experience very few people have identical cant requirements for each foot, and the only way to determine that accurately is to get independent values for each. At a very minimum, the cant-measuring machine offers a good baseline place to start. In the end, some experimentation on the water will be necessary in any case. Also, I think you misunderstand how canting works on a water ski. In that regard, you concerns about the cant-measuring machine being different from water skiing is spot on, because with snow skiing your canting effort is designed to make each of your two skis flat under your individual bowed legs. With a water ski, your goal is the opposite - you want to force each of your knees to be aligned over the ski, thereby closing the natural gap between them. So, if you are right foot forward (and bowlegged) you want the thicker edge of the wedge on the right edge of the ski, not under your arch. Remember the OP's concern about his rear knee dragging in the water on his offside turn? If you place a wedge the way you're describing it you're simply forcing Thager's back knee deeper into the water (on his offside). Instead, you want the wedge to force his knee inward toward the ski's center-line. I know it's counter-intuitive, and you'll probably accuse me of being crazy, but before you do, read this: https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/15667/canting-my-bindings-on-the-ski-helped-me-overcome-years-of-problems/p1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted March 26, 2022 Author Baller Share Posted March 26, 2022 @RGilmore Thanks for that link! That started my on and off tinkering with canting. Knew it was there but could never find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller EFW Posted March 26, 2022 Baller Share Posted March 26, 2022 https://www.tognar.com/ski-binding-cant-strip/?sku=CCO%20CS15&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8_qRBhCXARIsAE2AtRajrEi03N9-CD5WXKosPgttCdECPx10DrMUC3yXTa5MmBIepvmvnH0aAiDiEALw_wcB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RGilmore Posted March 26, 2022 Members Share Posted March 26, 2022 @thager YW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted April 14, 2022 Author Baller Share Posted April 14, 2022 @EFW Thx, great info! Or for $2.46 I can get a package of 12 composite door shims which work very well also. I had some Starboard lying around so I ground my own 1/4" under boot cants on my belt sanding table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted April 15, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted April 15, 2022 I had to rebuild my set up this week. Took a few photos of the parts that go into this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ swbca Posted April 15, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted April 15, 2022 Years ago Jobe used to make cants. Wish I had them now for experimenting. I am not sure that individual spacers at each screw don't put leveraged shear forces on the inserts when the ski flexes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted April 15, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted April 15, 2022 @swbca - If you install the slider spacers ala old HO bindings that should eliminate any longitudinal shear forces. They allow the front / back portion of the plate to slide in the slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RGilmore Posted April 15, 2022 Members Share Posted April 15, 2022 @swbca My boots are Radar Vapors, mounted on a sequence plate. The cants are between the boot and the binding plate. So, for my cants, I drilled the holes perpendicular to the wedge surface that contacts the binding plate, then temporarily attached them (in the proper location) to the bottom of each boot with carpet tape. Upon doing that, I felt I could use the wedge as a template to guide the drill bit for drilling through the sole of the boots. I did this, of course, thinking (like you) that new boot "nut" locations would be necessary to avoid an angular conflict, but that turned out to not be necessary. There was enough "play" between the plate holes and the threaded boot inserts to allow the bolts to run in the same location with minimal angular load. Apparently, what looked like a massive thickness change on the thicker side was irrelevant to the plate and boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted April 15, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted April 15, 2022 A thought - instead of screws on the elevated side, use studs. The spacer can be a nut that locks the stud to the ski insert, drop a washer or aluminum strip on top then the binding plate lays on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted April 20, 2022 Baller_ Share Posted April 20, 2022 Using a strip of sea deck under my plastic wedge that sits inside radar shell under liner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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