To much ski in the water?

[Wish]

Caught this on FB. MB suggests he had to much ski in the water and wished he knew back then what he knows now. I’m not really sure. To me he just looks amazing. Would be interesirng to see if we can figure it out. Any guesses….thoughts

 

 

[Andre]

Let's tag him! @MarcusBrown

 

That's a lot of ski in the water in that pix|

[Mastercrafter]

I actually asked "what's wrong" on the post, and here's MB's response:

 

I'll edit to add: I've been part of Flowpoint Method since December and it's been a great program with regular fitness programming, as well as the opportunity to geek out on ski talk with MB during the member's video calls. Jenny is awesome with exercise and nutrition. Plus, stuff like this response below make for seemingly limitless knowledge sharing. If you're on the fence, at least give their free two weeks a try.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the_daily_ski

What’s too much? Should the water break near the front toes at this point? I know you talk about trimming the ski out flat for reduced load which means more ski in the water, but when does it become too much? Hope that makes sense.

 

 

flowpointmethod

@the_daily_ski great question! I know we’ve discussed this before on the Method calls, but we’ll simplify here a bit: think about how much drag your ski has when your weight is evenly distributed, vs when your weight is mostly thru the back foot…. Much more drag when you are weighting the back foot, I think we all agree. SO, now think about when most of us get into trouble in the course, aka SLACK at the finish of the turn. That Slack rope is a result of too much speed directed AT the boat, and more simply, just too much speed thru the finish of the turn. Now, imagine if you had BRAKES in your ski….when would you use those brakes? Probably just before you normally get slack, you would learn to feather the brakes and keep your speed in check (relative to the boat) to keep the rope from going slack. Pretty simple once we can wrap our heads around it…

 

Now, think about ski orientation (tip up vs tip down OR even weight vs back foot pressure) as it relates to drag….and we can agree that pushing the tail of the ski in the water will not only create more drag (braking) but also reduce the chance of the tail of the ski blowing out: 2 positive outcomes.

 

So, when done correctly, and at the right time, Pushing thru the tail of the ski WILL most definitely improve your turning proficiency, consistency and Overall performance ==> More Buoys, More PB’s, More Times per season.

 

 

 

flowpointmethod

@the_daily_ski just wanted to clarify. The last piece of the puzzle is this: imagine you are driving your car and approaching a turn too fast and need to slow down to stay on the road….BUT, you have already been riding the brakes for the past 30 seconds, and the accelerator, all at the same time. Well, your brakes aren’t going to work very well, since they are already hot, tired and “used up” so to speak. That’s generally the category most of us skiers are in. Let me explain further -

IF you are already standing centered or back on your ski, during the outbound swing approach to the buoy (preturn), then you have little to no room to make the backfoot-pressure move to the tail, when you want the ski to actually rotate and finish. MOST skiers are already too far back on the ski into the buoy…and when nothing happens at the finish, they instinctively push on the tail….but they never set it up to begin with.

You MUST approach the buoy with your weight centered or forward (70% or more of your weight supported by your front foot) and the ski trimmed out (tip down) to effectively and efficiently use the tail of the ski to finish the turn. Otherwise, you end up falling off the back of the ski.

Let me know if this makes sense….hard thru words, but actually a quite simple concept once you wrap your head around it. THEN it’s just a matter of wrapping your body around the idea and opening up to the possibility of a completely new feeling on your ski!! ??

 

[MarcusBrown]

@Wish thanks for posting....I'm wondering if @Mastercrafter postings clarified things a bit?

 

This is definitely a Completely NEW way of thinking about turning dynamics for me....and I've not heard this part of the course discussed in this fashion...so I think its going to take a bit of time for the concept to sink in for many skiers.

 

Definitely don't want to leave anyone confused.

 

I'll leave you with this analogy: The Hammer and The Nail

-For a very long time, skiers have been trying to push the nail in by holding the hammer agains the nail head and simply trying to push hard enough to get the nail to sink into the wood. That's gonna be a frustrating approach

-All I'm advocating for is we use the Hammer how it was meant to be used....cock it back, aim and swing it so that it hits the nail head square and with MOMENTUM! The impulse of the hammer hitting the nail head puts a lot of energy into the nail, and the nail moves into the wood.

 

The finish of the turn, if done right, should be exactly the same: your body is the Hammer, and the ski is the Nail. If you "Set it up" right in the Outbound Swing (PreTurn) phase, you can get the ski to rotate much easier at the finish of the turn but loading through your back foot at the right place and at the right time, than by simply standing balanced and waiting for the ski to carve/rotate/finish on its own.

[ral]

@MarcusBrown , what would be the difference in the approach for offside vs onside?

[Deep11]

im quite surprised this hasn’t created more interest - maybe everyone is skiing now (or too confused by fixing Hortons onside !)

Totally agree by the way - another “opposite” way to achieve the same thing in our crazy sport:

Riding through the turn on the front foot works well and seems to be the current focus of coaching.

However going out until you cant go any further and having the balance point of the ski drop back slightly (with a bit of back foot pressure) does the same thing.

I find it easier to keep a tight line with this approach.

Also don’t need as much energy at the midline (easier on the body) as not aiming to be as up course as possible but simply wide enough at the ball when your speed equalizes with the boat.

Not sure how short you can with this technique though…..

[Horton]

yeah I think this thread is problematic because it's a matter of perspective / semantics. Maybe in that picture Marcus has too much ski in the water but I think most skiers (who don't run very short rope) are more likely to have too much ski out of the water most of the time.

 

Smear (as I define it ) requires there to be additional grip in front of your feet and less grip behind your feet to allow the ski to rotate. As with any move if you've already gone to the full extent of the motion prematurely you have no place to go so a skier who is too forward too early can only move back.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Yeah when you get to an elite level and start nitpicking, its opens a huge can of worms!

 

What I see is that the ski is behind the COM, just by a tiny bit, but that is important at high levels.

 

"too much ski in the water" is not the problem, its the symptom.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield is that the third time I've been right?

[Adam Caldwell]

Completely necessary tools to have in the tool box to handle all situations on any given day.

 

Not an impossible skill to learn. Just takes practice.

[Deep11]

@horton - dont think it semantics. Your comment about being premature makes sense, in this situation however my understanding of @MarcusBrown is that its a different way of finishing the turn (or turning in for the gate) when everything is going right. Even when youve got all the smear you can (inevitable at shorter lengths) if you keep the line tight and continue outbound (correctly balanced - if possible), where you might otherwise continue to pressure the front foot, with this technique you consciously apply back foot pressure - the ski snaps round to finish the turn.

What i feel the challenge with this technique is, is managing speed - too fast approaching the turn and this is the wrong tool. Front foot pressure allows more braking when youve spiked too hard.

(That said the c85 seems to allow a faster approach with this technique than previous skis ive tried - it feels like it pretty much stops going outbound and goes directly inbound without losing much down course distance - -up to 35off anyway)

[MarcusBrown]

@Deep11 I agree with you. There are multiple ways to "smear" or drift the ski for sure...below are a few that come to mind:

 

1. Ski setup - From riding different skis, it seems the Denali is the most automatic at this

2. Tip Engagement (which was always my goal in the past) - ski tip engages/grabs, feet push the rest of the ski thru and you have a "rotation" of sorts. But this is a lower probability move than #3

3. Body Manipulation - Weight transfer + Proper Sequencing. This approach requires tip engagement to initiate, but minimal tip engagement through the finish of the turn. When learned, its my belief this will give you the best, most repeatable and highest probability direction change from Apex in....no matter what ski you ride....and, generally speaking, no matter which turn we are talking about, Onside/Offside.

 

#3 requires a unique sequence of movements....and it may be a bit of an advanced concept. The beauty of our sport is the free flow of information and energy between Pros and Amateurs....but it can also be confusing at times.

 

I don't believe this should be a Beginner/Intermediate focus...my guess is this truly comes into play at the bridge pass between 32 and 38 off. At 35 off (12m) things start to feel a bit funky, the rhythm is drastically different than 32, and intuitive skiers learn how to deal with it, but the rest of us can tend to struggle. I believe 35 off is the limit pass for being able to proficiently "carve" the ski and still keep rhythm. Once we get to 38 off, the margin for error when carving a ski becomes incredibly small, and its here that skiers have to learn another way to change directions through apex.

[jipster43]

Is this what’s happening with Rossi’s & Regina’s ski when their ski comes up at the end of their turn?

[MarcusBrown]

@jipster43 yes, there are lots of times those 2 have nailed this move.

 

Remember, the moves you make on the water ALWAYS have their roots in the concepts, beliefs and models you create in your mind off the water.

 

The better the Model you are operating from, the better the outcomes when you are in the course.