First there was S Lines

[JackQ]

@dave2ball, You already have skied on one, before it seem that anyone knew of them…seems odd. I have skied all the ML, In-Tow, and SL ropes and I am in the camp that a rope is rope. Other may or think they feel a difference I dont. However, this Z rope announcement seem somewhat unsavory.

[rockdog]

Yes @JackQ . This thread is personally embarrassing for more than one person here in my view. Shaking my head..

[BraceMaker]

@JackQ aint' that the trouble? Its awesome that both Masterline and S-Lines are sponsors here, I've seen both on TWBC double thumbs up.

 

Z-Lines?????? I'm 0% against Masterline selling their older ropes at a reduced cost but just call them suboptimized and sell them for 70 bucks on their website. Zero thumbs up.

[dave2ball]

@JackQ Yep. have a lot of connections. I have not skied in tow ropes or at least I don’t remember. So I have no idea how those ropes feel.

[BraceMaker]

@rockdog imagine the emails @horton has right now.

[dave2ball]

@BraceMaker ML does not sell old ropes at a discount.

[BigSpray]

Interesting everyone falls over S Lines but when there is another rope company with a price point rope to compete with S Lines everyone get there but in a pucker and yells foul.

[BraceMaker]

@dave2ball old doesn't mean age - it means technology, knotless, labels etc.

 

Ya know, back when a masterline rope was less than 70 bucks.

 

 

Add to working in a field that utilizes plastics - the stuff is on a crazy upwards cost because its made of Oil of all things but for some reason competitors are entering the market below the establishment cost and stating they have a premium product? Absurd! oh wait Z-Lines is claiming they do that against their own brand. :Facepalm.

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@BigSpray S lines just sponsored a main line tournament, when is Z-Lines going to start sponsoring a tournament to support their product?

[Mastercrafter]

@BigSpray except it’s not “another company” — it looks to be Masterline, posing as a new company with direct to consumer sales, cutting out their retailers and distributors, all right after Lines came to market with a rope that’s 60% less expensive yet still pulled a skier to within a buoy or so of the world record.

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@Mastercrafter makes you wonder who screwed up their web presence.

[dave2ball]

@BraceMaker

Everything that requires oil for production IE rubber will go up as far as raw cost. It will be up to the manufacture to increase prices or eat the increases.

[BraceMaker]

?

Masterline is selling their rope with out sleeves for less than half the price. I'll skip the line lengths and use the color... Guess Masterline just depreciated their whole catalog.

[APB]

Bottom line... Thankyou S-Lines for offering mainlines at a great price. Your competition has noticed and attempted to followed suit! ML's antics on this site have me wanting to try some lines..... Handles soon too!

[ISP6ball]

@APB I couldn't agree more. I have numerous masterline products, but this is a big turnoff. I will be looking to S Lines and other companies for my next purchases.

[ghutch]

Jeez guys... who gives a rats fat a$$? You want to buy a $190 rope.. go for it! A $70 rope.. sure thing. So what if ML is coming up with a different name to sell ropes cheaper? S-lines has done a great job of entering the market and bringing a just as good or better product at a helluva better price! Support who you want.. its a free world. For now anyway

@JackQ is right on. Here's a top level skier skiing all kinds of ropes and not feeling much if any difference at all. Thanks again S-lines. And I'll venture to say get ready for some new handles...

[ScottScott]

This whole thing is fishy. Most fishy is this mysterious profile @BigSpray that just seems to have appeared our of no-where with a PRIVATE profile. This harms the legitimacy of the whole forum.

[BigSpray]

@ScottScott of you must know I have been on this forum since 2011. I prefer to keep my profile private because it is really nobody’s business.

[mlusa]

Wow, there are some crazy comments and this whole thread seems so crazy. It's like everyone has uncovered some crazy conspiracy.

 

My son Ryan, a freshman at University of Alabama, wanted to start his own company for some experience. He is studying business. He has worked at ML in the past, but is interning as the photographer for Nick Saben and the University of Alabama football team and spending much of the summer up at school. Not sure if anyone else that has kids has had a hard time trying to help their child find a job, but they don't want to work for "Dad" so you all may be luckier than me.

 

He had some ideas and has some good knowledge about skiing and wanted to start a small rope company which he plans to add some other products. He asked if he could buy rope and other raw materials from us. We sell to many people and companies raw materials or finished products. We've made 1000's of ropes for O'Brien in years past. We've also done ropes for all sorts of companies from Rod's ropes, Knotty Girl, all the way up to big companies like O'Brien, Kidder, KD, Goode, Wake Tech and lots more. Similar to how most of the ski companies work. Check out how many slalom skis you are riding that come out of the Connelly factory.

 

Anyway, for some reason the sleuths have come out to "uncover" Zline. Everyone is upset that for some reason he is selling a "no frills" rope for less money with no overhead and while it's ok for S lines. The products are quality products, but are not ML products. Same as the KD ski is not a Connelly ski.

 

Ryan wants to build something while in school to have some experience and gain much needed credit etc from a relationship with vendors so he can do something when he gets out of college. Not sure if anyone else's kids have had trouble getting just a credit card, but those things are tough now. My daughter just bought a house and it was hard for her to show credit. It take time and to start early.

 

He will find out all about pricing and what all goes into building a company with this project.

 

He is doing all of his own rope and playing with different things. His ropes are not old ML products. Try one and see. The quality is a good product and he has come up with a USA long lead line to his mainline. This brand isn't meant to compete against ML. Banana Republic, Gap and Old Navy are all companies owned by the same company to appeal to different markets. S Line will also appeal to some people.

 

ML does a ton to support the sport. Today alone I shipped out sponsorship deals to support different events including the Adaptive Nationals. There is a lot that goes into a small water ski company. For those that think the margins are huge, I would certainly entertain selling you a feat company.

 

There is much that goes into all of it that he will learn and he will have to find out if he can manage that price structure. We are getting 5% increases in yarn costs for the 3rd or 4th time this year. Rubber and Polypropylene are all petroleum based products. It's crazy. Labor is bad enough to deal with and shipping and lead times are making it almost impossible to keep all the parts moving.

 

I got my start buying rope from Freestyler ropes and building ropes. We developed a business and grew it to the point we are today. It's taken a long time to get here. Many times I've questioned why, but we stuck with it. We have been through some rough times and it looks like times are getting bumpy again. All companies will need everyone's support to survive these coming times. There are many people that are still clueless to the difficulties that many in our industry are starting to face.

 

I hope this answers some of the questions on here.

 

Russell

[BigSpray]

Great product. I wish success to Ryan.

[slow]

good lesson in negative marketing

[VONMAN]

I Stopped using Masterline when they came out with 90% white line with a 10% color woven in.

Couldn't tell who was skiing what line length from the shore. I'm sure it was to keep cost down and profit up. And we still bought them at a premium. Not any more.

[Mastercrafter]

The whole thing is just too weird to me. The timing, the price, the name, the same family, the same addresses.

 

Ryan’s new start-up or not, I don’t feel it was done tactfully, or in a way that actually makes business sense for either ML or Z Lines. Adding in all the comments from Z Lines supporters with negative remarks of S Lines just makes it that much worse.

 

I’ll continue to give the benefit of a doubt to Z Lines. Meanwhile.. I’ll admittedly still be skiing my Optimized 2.0 since I’m trying to keep consistent with most tournament/event ropes. I don’t need to think about one more thing.

 

My favorite rope is the rock-solid Syndicate, with no give and great connection. Unfortunately it’s just too different from the norm now, but probably way worse for my body as well.

[Slalom.Steve]

Yeah it still all seems too odd. Particularly calling it "Z Lines." Hey I'm gonna start a ski company called D4 and a boat company called MisterCraft... but like, no relation to anything, just my own vibe here! :#

 

@BigSpray you keep saying you've been on since 2011, but you have 14 total posts and all or nearly all of them have come in the last month commenting on S-Lines and now Z-Lines. Interesting time to become a passionate poster...

 

Feels like Dave and now Z-Lines has been alienating a lot of ML customers and Russell came in to try to save face.

[BigSpray]

If you must know I stoped skiing tournaments in 2012. Have started to get back into skiing and have been trying new ropes to see what is new since I have been out for so long. Because I have tried both ropes I figured I’d chime in.

[skialex]

Yeah right…

[JackQ]

I have to call BS on @BigSpray! You haven’t skied in 10 years, but now that you are, one manufactures rope is crap and another is wonderful, and your profile is private,

[shufflehuff]

@JackQ Exactly! I also have been out of competitive skiing for more than 10 years. I am back to skiing and trying to work my way back to competition status. No way could I tell a difference in a new rope or an old rope, or the stretch of the rope given how little I have skied lately.

[BigSpray]

I’m sorry tournaments. I corrected my post.

 

[mike_mapple]

@Cooper_Trelawney

 

[Slalom.Steve]

BigSpray is like that time when I was 17 and the cops pulled me over and found a bunch of beers in my trunk and I told them they were my Dad's...

"What's that, mister officer? The beers are cold and loose in a backpack?

Well... that must be because there... he was at a work party! Yeah yeah, earlier that night, and he must've brought home the leftover beer!... So he put them in the backpack that... he takes to all his work parties! But then! He forgot them in the trunk!"

:D

 

As we all certainly know, the first piece of gear that really needs to be dialed in when getting back into skiing (or... not getting back into skiing?) is ropes, and you gotta try all the new unknown brands right away and post your opinions of them online.

[UCFskier]

oh Geez @SlalomSteve :D

[Slalom.Steve]

@UCFskier - true story! Needless to say, they didn’t buy it lol. Got arrested for underage possession.

[APB]

Competition is good. Competition can be harsh…. Z lines is a knee jerk reaction to a situation that could have been handled better from the start. Best of luck to the kid…. Hopefully he doesn’t take much more market share away from ML.

[Dano]

I can’t decide if the actions of the parties involved here actually happened or if this thread is designed for pure comedy? I can’t imagine trying to win over customers in this fashion.

[Booze]

 

[scoke]

Gotta love 'Merica!

 

 

[Broussard]

@scoke

 

[foxriverat]

[Deanoski]

Hats off for ML

one product to sell through store fronts

one product to sell DTC

 

Brilliant IMO

 

 

[ToddL]

Up next! Introducing the new CZ Fin!

 

 

Quickly followed by the Whizper Fin!

 

 

(It's a joke. Lighten up.)

[APB]

$29.99!!

[mcskier41]

All this drama over what? ski ropes? and because @BigSpray gave an opinion/review on the new rope company which happens to be Russell Gay's son. and through this thread ML is getting demonized as well as @BigSpray and called illegitimate? It's been fun to sit back and see all of this drama amongst fellow waterskiers :)

why can't we all get along - funny how quick we all are to pull the Scott Chipman card on @BigSpray LMAO

[slalom frog]

This thread is a bit petty in my opinion. ML has been a great resource to the water skiing community. Is their product been getting a little bit expensive over the last few years? Some think that it is and others value their product and reputation differently. It's hard to run a small company, pay your employees a fair and competitive wage and make a reasonable profit for all that work. I have no idea what the overhead structure is of these different companies but I would speculate that ML has a wee bit more overhead. Too often we make purchase decisions mostly on price. Does the waterskiing community want ML in it? If so, we need to fairly weigh all aspects where we send or water skiing dollars.

 

In full disclosure, I did recently purchase a few S-lines product. I was curious about their product based on all the chatter on BOS. I is a fine product. I did not get to the level of measuring the overall and individual sections, my weekly paycheck does not depend on this level of accuracy!

[ToddL]

I hear there is a portable slalom course business up for sale. It already has a "Z" in the name, too!

 

(again, lighten up. It's a joke.)

[UCFskier]

@slalom frog i dont think its an issue of ML being a good line or not.... its the fact you have some dude Big Spray coming on and anouncing the new Z-Line while simultaniously running down S-Line.... come on man... just poor form, bad marketing (if ML asked them to do it) and very transparent... double thumbs down

[skibug]

On a serious note, I have been using my Z-Line for about 6 sets and it is GREAT!!!!! Not too spongy, not too stiff....just right. It is better than the last few versions ML put out IMO. Not sure if it is the raw product or the manufacturing process that deviates from what ML usually puts into their tournament ropes, but they should take note. For the record, I have also skied the S-Line R3 (stiffest) and I feel that rope is very good as well. IMO, both the S-line and Z-line feel better than the ML non-optimized and the ML Optimized 2.0. Just my $0.02

[BigSpray]

I do not talked to ML or have any affiliation with them. I gave my own opinion on both ropes. I never said S lines were poor quality I said they were stretchy. I don’t walk the fence with many things and I tell it the way i see it. Please don’t keep me connected with ML. weather or not you care for me or not it’s not fair to have ML tied to me.

[Dacon62]

Mid stretch S-lines has exactly the same stretch amount as the ML opt2.

Broke both in and then tied to hitch at 28 and did a stretch test.