Handle connection vs edge change

[aupatking]

I’ve plateaued. I’m struggling with my -32 pass and (self diagnosed) have found that I’m releasing the handle too soon off the second wake. I’ve been trying everything I can think of to MAKE myself stay on the handle, yet Edge change early. I feel like when I keep the handle in, I’m edge changing later, which ends the pass just the same as early handle release. I’m a mechanical thinker like the though “hold handle pressure in back arm” and it makes other things correct. What is a mechanical thought that will help through this hump/slump?

[Horton]

@aupatking

well let's go back a step. is your stack really solid? are your hips over your feet at centerline? if you're already broken then you're kind of screwed by the time you get to centerline.

[Rednucleus]

A video would help folks here that ski much better than me to assist you!

Edited May 8, 2023 by Rednucleus

[Lieutenant Dan]

The Denali “Adams” have some great advice regarding how they achieve swing and early edge change (includes standing up early and pointing the ski down the lake) in the “Connection and Swing” thread from fall of 2019. I brought it forward recently if you scroll down a bit you’ll find this thread 

[ral]

Hard to tell without video, but it sounds like you aren’t keeping the handle in, but keeping your hands on the handle but with the handle out (because of what @Horton mentions most likely…). That would explain the late edge change.

[aupatking]

Yes, @Horton and @ral, you are correct. I’ve been working very hard on my “stacked” position, and have it 75%-ish percent of the time. That’s the low hanging fruit in the video, and fairly easy to fix. I just have to work on making it better than 75%. Typically when I lose it, it’s from being so late/narrow that I turn anyway and there’s no support from the line. On those I get crushed and it’s all bent from there. I think you are on to the problem Ral, that having the handle and keeping it in are two different things. I really need to be fixing that in my skiing and looking for that when reviewing my video.  

[scoke]

32 is where the squat and pull starts to hit the wall.

A skier can have all the best "stack" in the world but if their go-to move to generate ski slip through the water is pulling and squatting to get more energy or load, their "stack" is going to break down. It mechanically/physically has to break down due to the physics as the body can't hold the energy. 

related note, "stack" is probably the worst word to describe it. stack is a static, vertical, rigid word. you stack cinder blocks, bricks etc. a column is "stacked" and vertical.

 

Alignment. that's the real word as it's dynamic, ever changing, using your muscle to keep or get back to alignment. while our shoulders are against the boat and we are not vertical but elongated at an angle relative to the water.

 

Most skiers i have seen that talk and think in stack, are crushed, "tall" over the water, not really leaning but they are fighting to be stacked!!

 

For clarity, we're talking spray to spray here.

 

Post video please? 

 

 

Twhispers video: WOW. That is one of the best videos out there with quite a few elements which are very hard to describe.

 

My point in my text, if you are squatting and pulling, the video starting at the 1:02 mark, flat out will not work. Look how clean loose and aligned he is at 1:05? 

 

Dang, I need to send Twhisper more video of my deep water starts and see what he thinks. I missed one the other day.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by scoke
typos be crazy yo!

[twhisper]

@aupatkingSome of this might help...

 

[aupatking]

Thank you Terry, I concreted a Nautique SS pylon in the ground outside my shop and haven’t had a good reason to use it, until today

I attached video, and yes, my “stack” is definitely not good 2 to 3 as I got a bit over the front of the ski at 2 and couldn’t recover before the boat caught me

Edited May 9, 2023 by aupatking
I added video. It’s only the 4 ball course. Our lake is very short so when working on gates or shorter lines, I only run the 4 in one direction.

[scoke]

That’s great that you posted video. It takes courage to put yourself out there. 
 

you’re putting “4” in the books but would you be able to run 6?  Are your fundamentals strong enough to even cut it to 35?

Just my free opinion after watching the video,  putting energy into working on the edge change is going to be an extremely low ROE activity and not your big rock holding you back. 
 

it’s all about fundamentals and we have to reevaluate them for every pass. 
 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@aupatking the number one thing I see is you are way too narrow on your gate pullout. You can get away with that width at 15 and 22 and sometimes 28 but it will start to eat your lunch at 32 and shorter. 
You want to try to get even with the pylon on the pullout. When you start your turn in, fully commit your angle, then hold what you have. 

nothing really jumped out on your stack or edge change - there is certainly fine tuning to be done, but I don’t think that is holding you back. 
a wide gate makes up for a multitude of sins. 
 

one more thing from the Mapple school, especially since you are on a 4 buoy course - you want to see how early you can get into the last buoy. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Bruce_Butterfield

[aupatking]

@scokepretty sure I wouldn’t have got around 6 on that one. Thank you @Bruce_Butterfield. I will work on width. The narrowness is a product of trying to run 6 from the same direction I ran that 4. You get slingshot out and are way outrunning the boat so I dialed it back. For the 4 ball course, it’s more like the length of runnup I’d get in Milton or Axis, so I am trying to get tournament type setup. I’ll go even with the pylon and get more video. Thank you again guys

[twhisper]

You've learned to have the ski change edges by letting your arms out, and having the boat pull your upper body from one side of the ski to the other. 

I don't know if anyone caught it, but during the KOD webcast over this past weekend I heard a few comments from Larkin about how there's two ways to move- The upper body can stay in place while the ski moves, or the ski can stay in place while the upper body moves. (Larkin has this mastered)

We want the upper body to remain more quiet while the ski moves underneath us. To be able to do this we have to have the hips and the handle stay in the same relationship before and after we pass through centerline. If we pass through centerline and allow the inner elbow bones to detach from the lower sides of the body then the pull of the boat will be transferred from the core of the body up to the shoulders. Once the boat has some pull on the shoulders it will begin to tip the skier to the inside of the turn regardless of what the skier is trying to do. It's very hard to swing out as wide or turn the ski with level head and shoulders if your shoulders are getting pulled on by the boat.

The longer we can keep the pull of the boat concentrated on the core of the body rather than the shoulders the wider we can swing out into the turns, and the more freedom we'll have to turn in the style we want once we release the outside hand from the handle.

 

[lpskier]

@scoke Last I knew, Chopper trains on a four ball course. Not ideal, but it worked for him. Better than a no ball course. Of course there was an open skier from west Texas, whose name escapes me right now but he was a good friend of Andy, who did the majority of his training on open water due to no convenient access to a site with a course. 
 

@aupatking 2x on your gate. The one thing you can perfect on a four ball course is your gate. 

[kc]

@lpskierTom Brantley is who you’re thinking of. Actually from New Mexico, where he skied open water. He went to Dallas every so often to ski a course.

[lpskier]

@KC Exactly! Tom Brantley. 

[jjackkrash]

Tom B. skis/coaches with Alan Hendricks in Greenville Texas.  At least he did when I was a club member there a few years back.  That guy could run 39 when it was so windy I did not even want to ride in the boat.  

[scoke]

Classic thread derailment for the OP's original intention lol

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by scoke

[Adam Caldwell]

@aupatking

A good connection after centerline is only possible when gate timing and position with the boat are IDEAL at the start.    

Making the cut to 32off often puts people in the 'wrong' spot at the zero ball turn with respect to the boat.  This throws the timing between the skier load and boats throttle response out of whack, and sets you up for a slack 1 ball and making for a late, hard pull through the wakes to two ball where your position is already completely compromised and you get separated even worse on the way to 2 ball.

Most skiers pullout later and wider as the rope gets shorter, not realizing that their speed in the glide will automatically be higher purely due to the geometry of the shorter line.  These things coupled together would "work' on a PP setup, but tend to make live very hard on a ZO boat.  

So, study your gate.

Take a look at what your doing different between the 22/28 and 32 gate.   My guess is you'll want look to pullout a bit slower as the rope gets shorter in order to keep your downcourse speed in check at the zero ball.  Also look to pull out slightly earlier as the rope is shorter to ensure adequate "time and distance" exist once up in the glide for the boat to be able to get moving away from you just a moment before you rotate in from the glide width at zero.  (A higher radial position on the boat, takes more time and distance to swing back below a 45deg position where you will be able to load into a 'supported line' and productively accelerate from a wider point with less load.)

[DW]

This may help 😁

https://www.google.com/search?q=sticky+fingers+scene+from+the+replacements&rlz=1C1CHZN_enUS978US979&oq=sticky+fingers+scene+from+the+replacements&aqs=chrome..69i57.9041j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:8a5b705f,vid:QE4DHCz9brQ

[bko]

@adamhcaldwell

"A higher radial position on the boat takes more time and distance to swing back below a 45deg position where you will be able to load into a 'supported line' and productively accelerate from a wider point with less load."

Sorry, I don't get it.

Shall we start the turn in from a spot that is at an angle of more than 45 degrees, in order to then have the body position ready for the load at 45 degrees)?

So do you recommend to have 'more' time and distance for swinging back to 45 degrees? 

Or shall the turn-in not start before coming down to 45 degrees?

The widest (and optimal) point to productively accelerate from - with little load - is at 45 degrees, isn't it? Can this point be wider than 45 degrees? 

In your latest videos on Insta it seems you start at pretty much exactly 45 degrees...

 

  

 

[Dano]

@adamhcaldwell thanks for that explanation.  I wish I had come across that a few years ago. 

[Adam Caldwell]

@bko -pullout for the gate super late and fast so you are at a near 90deg position on the boat when you need to turn for the gate.  See what happens.  Then follow that up with pulling out crazy early, slow so the boat is a lot further in front of you.  See what happens.   Then go to the dock and think about it with a cold beer.   

There is a geometry involved that helps promote synergy between the boat and the skier.   

If you are trying to load a line higher then 45deg position, then you burning up valuable cross-course runway without gaining true support or energy from the boat during the entire "downswing" to CL.  

Edited May 12, 2023 by adamhcaldwell

[scoke]

@aupatking

 

How has the skiing been in training or tournaments? Any new video? 

[aupatking]

Haven’t been able to get back onto the home lake much at all. I had a thoroughly embarrassing tournament performance this past weekend though. 2 out of 3 rounds I missed my opener. So far this year I’m down 2 full passes from my average 3 years ago.

on a productive quest note though, watching Louisa Jaramillo on Instagram gave me what seemed like an insight. Her handle connection was good, of course, but I noticed something more, I think the “turn” started way earlier than I was first thinking. The ski swung out from under her with the handle still in. Is that what is meant by “turn with your hips, not shoulders”? I think it is and I think that may be what I need to focus on feeling. Does that sound right? 

Im planning to ski tomorrow afternoon, but my new company  has been making other plans for me lately 

[lpskier]

@aupatking If you are riding the same ski and keep records of your fin settings, try going back to the same numbers you were running when you were skiing well.  Your gear may not be the cause of a slump, but it can’t hurt to check and to optimize your chances for success. 

[VONMAN]

@adamhcaldwell Thank You, Thank You very much! I've been talking about when the rope exceeds 45 degrees and the ramifications if you try to overload it. Thank you.

[scoke]

@aupatking

How'd the rest of the summer progress? You mentioned you were down a pass or similar?

 

What ski are you riding this summer?

 

Hope all is well as you've been quiet.

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by scoke

[aupatking]

Thank you @scoke I’m not skiing enough these days to have high expectations. I’m trying to get my company that provides a total solution for network services for hospitals off the ground. Long hours without proper ski breaks.

i was on a D3 NRG R2 at the beginning of the summer but have been skiing the last month on a Goode XTRCC. I skied 1 set with @Swini this week (one is all I get when the wife and kids are with me, I guess). Matt is a great coach because he’s a great listener and teacher.  I kept repeating back to him what I heard, which was not what he said. He could see it in my skiing as well. He found the way to say it, that I finally understood and I really believe that is where his gift really lies. He does that better than anyone in the business! I apologize, Matt, for not getting back Friday. I’m pretty sure you knew that was going to happen. 

 I’m going to spend the rest of the summer ingraining that correct feeling into my muscle. “Knowledge is nothing until it is IN THE BODY” (or something close to that quoted from a weird Netflix show, OA)

[rawly]

Found this thread while searching for the @twhisper dry land edge change video. That reverse C and moving the ski with the knees under your body is above my pay grade , but that thing he does with the inside elbow and straight back arm to advance his inside hip a few times at the end of the video may be the mechanical thing you are looking for ? ?  That’s what will get you on the front of the ski and that extra fraction of a second to do so will keep you on the handle and  help you with your speed and direction. Do that and you’ll come out of the turn saying “ I’m ready “ and the boat will respond “ let’s go “    Versus “let’s go “ and you saying “ not yet “. Would be nice to hear from Terry or any other of you big dogs on where you are actually changing hip orientation from turn to turn. And where us mortals should start trying to initiate it. 

[aupatking]

@rawly thanks for resurrecting this thread. I just reread Terry’s last post on this thread and was looking at the photo of Nate. 

@twhisper when I read what you said and look at the picture, am I understanding it correctly to say that “back arm pressure” through centerline needs to move to front arm pressure (pull) 2nd wake to buoy? That transfer to front elbow staying connected to the body, and low, would keep your back arm on the handle longer as a byproduct. Correct? It’s not exactly what you said, but would that still be a functional way to to think? I find it very difficult to “think” anything more than simple thoughts in the course. Something like back-front, back-front....

[twhisper]

@rawlyFrom centerline of the wakes out to the buoy I am trying to keep my hips facing in the same direction as the tip of the ski. As we pass through centerline the rope is constantly trying to unravel our hips and shoulders. I want to keep my hips and shoulders square to the length of the course, so I have to resist the unraveling force from the rope as I move farther away from centerline. By the time I get to the buoy width I want to at least have my hips and shoulders square to the buoy line, and not rotated back in to where my chest is facing the pylon in the boat.

 

[twhisper]

@aupatkingRemember that "holding on to the handle longer" does not solve the problem. Many skiers have two hands on the handle for enough time, but their arms are completely pulled away from the core of the body way too soon. What counts is the relationship between the hips and handle, and whether or not they are close together or far apart.

I am not differentiating between which arm or hand has more or less of the load. In fact I am trying to keep the load in each hand/arm as equal as possible. My focus stays on keeping both inner elbow bones as close as I can to the bottom part of my vest until my free hand begins to release its grip from the handle.

On another note... skiing is way too fast and complex to "think" your way through any improvements. You must be able to visualize how the new skill is going to look and feel in your mind before ever attempting it on the water. As you go through the movements in the course your job is to be able to visualize yourself doing the new moves as you go through them.

 

[Slalom.Steve]

@twhisper - The idea of keeping the handle connected through/to the hips makes sense to me, in order to ride the full length/path/swing of the rope. The piece I don't understand is that I've heard to not "pull with your arms" even after the 2nd wake. I know during the cut, the arms should be straight and loose, but it seems like to achieve this elbows-pinned-to-the-vest position in the pre-turn, that would mean pulling the rope in with your arms?

[Slalom.Steve]

5 hours ago, twhisper said:

On another note... skiing is way too fast and complex to "think" your way through any improvements. You must be able to visualize how the new skill is going to look and feel in your mind before ever attempting it on the water. As you go through the movements in the course your job is to be able to visualize yourself doing the new moves as you go through them.

Also, ☝️ this is some f'in knowledge. Such an awesome teaching, for any technique/element of skiing.

[DP70]

58 minutes ago, Slalom.Steve said:

I know during the cut, the arms should be straight and loose, but it seems like to achieve this elbows-pinned-to-the-vest position in the pre-turn, that would mean pulling the rope in with your arms?

When leaned away from the boat your inner elbows are already pinned to your vest and the handle is low on your body between your hips & knees.  As your body starts to get more vertical through centerline and the handle moves to hip height - allow your arms to bend at the elbow to accommodate, it's not a pulling motion, it's keeping your elbows / upper arms in place and not letting them get separated from your torso.

[aupatking]

@Slalom.Steve it’s not so much “pulling with you arms” as it is trying to keep them in and down. @twhisper I think I’m saying it wrong, but I understand what you are saying and know you are correct. I’ll try to get some video sent to you tomorrow or Friday. If I can’t ski and sort out some ski BS I’ve got going on (my skiing) by Thursday I’m going to miss the last tournament of my year

[twhisper]

18 hours ago, DP70 said:

When leaned away from the boat your inner elbows are already pinned to your vest and the handle is low on your body between your hips & knees.  As your body starts to get more vertical through centerline and the handle moves to hip height - allow your arms to bend at the elbow to accommodate, it's not a pulling motion, it's keeping your elbows / upper arms in place and not letting them get separated from your torso.

Well said

[Horton]

I am just going to move this thread into "Classic Threads" now.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

 

On 10/3/2023 at 6:32 AM, twhisper said:

On another note... skiing is way too fast and complex to "think" your way through any improvements. You must be able to visualize how the new skill is going to look and feel in your mind before ever attempting it on the water. As you go through the movements in the course your job is to be able to visualize yourself doing the new moves as you go through them.

When trying new skills this is THE number 1 thing. ^ Whatever it takes to put a picture in your head; Practice on land, practice in front of the mirror, take video of yourself to see the movements you want to accomplish. If you can see what you're trying to do then you can start to put that picture in your mind to go out and execute it. This is one of the most underrated, unutilized skill when trying to learn new movements