Blowing out tail... fin adjustment?

[owennibley]

Had to use my backup ski (CX Superlite) because my binding broke and holy smokes..... I don't know why I ever stopped skiing on that thing. And then I remembered why.... the tail blew out and I broke my ankle on my front foot a few years ago. I did the exact same crash on it today and luckily my foot came out of the binding this time. 

Despite the ski's best effort to kill be again, I'm so impressed with the ski that I want to see if I can adjust the fin to reduce the tail blowing out on my on-side. 

What do you guys recommend? Increase depth by .005" change DFT? fin length? Right now they are stock:

29.50" 6.860” 2.510” 0.775” 7 DEGREES

Any help from you guys would be very much appreciated. 

 

BTW: HO CX Superlite is the most underrated ski of all time IMO. 😄

 

[lpskier]

What is the spread between your heels? 

[Horton]

Those fin settings seem logical.

Tail blowing at on-side? Did the tip grab hard and then the tail popped?

 

[owennibley]

48 minutes ago, lpskier said:

What is the spread between your heels? 

I've never measured that before. I use a RTP so I just put it as close as I can to the front boot without my toes hitting the front boot. What would that spread change?

 

15 minutes ago, Horton said:

Those fin settings seem logical.

Tail blowing at on-side? Did the tip grab hard and then the tail popped?

 

Honestly I can't remember. That is a possibility. But it didn't feel like the tip grabbed. It felt like I initiated the turn and I just lost grip on the ski. I know I was coming in hot and tried to crank 2 ball hard and next thing I know I'm in the water and my foot got cranked out of the boot pretty hard. What are you thoughts?

Edited July 14, 2023 by owennibley

[skialex]

@owennibley video would help… Asher’s video is great but doesn’t help much…

[Horton]

@owennibley If I recall correctly that is a shallow tunnel ski. It is easy to ride and not a lot of work. With that comes less grip. Settings may not get you there on that ski if you are going to crank hard turns. Not sure.

[owennibley]

38 minutes ago, skialex said:

@owennibley video would help… Asher’s video is great but doesn’t help much…

  Unfortunately, I don't have video of the crash of me skiing on this ski.

13 minutes ago, Horton said:

@owennibley If I recall correctly that is a shallow tunnel ski. It is easy to ride and not a lot of work. With that comes less grip. Settings may not get you there on that ski if you are going to crank hard turns. Not sure.

Yes, it is a shallow tunnel ski and extremely easy to ride. Super fast from wake to wake but I think you are right. Might not be feasible to get the ski to where I want it. 

I still want to play with the settings, if you guys were to change a fin setting, which direction would you go?

[Horton]

@owennibley

traditionally to stop tail slide you move bindings forward. I'm wondering if you went from zero tail slide to blown tail. I try bindings back 1/4"

[Rednucleus]

What speed/line length? I have been on the CX since 2017; such a fun easy ski. I am just getting back to 32mph/15off after hip replacement in Jan.  I have been moving fin forward & shallower to get  quicker turn - oppisite of what you are looking for?

[owennibley]

58 minutes ago, Rednucleus said:

What speed/line length? I have been on the CX since 2017; such a fun easy ski. I am just getting back to 32mph/15off after hip replacement in Jan.  I have been moving fin forward & shallower to get  quicker turn - oppisite of what you are looking for?

Today I was skiing at 34mph at 28-32 off. I love how fast the ski is across course but I do want a little more grip. I might be trying the Works 01 to compare. 

[lpskier]

@owennibley If your feet are too far apart, you can overpower the tail of your ski. A typical spread is between 11 and 12”. 

[BGrow76]

I think the HO Syndicate OMNI is the most underrated ski of all time. I know the CX Superlite is older than the OMNI. Is the CX Superlite wider or narrower than the OMNI? At some point the CX Superlite (just like the OMNI) will reach a point where the tail will not stay in the water which is when you need to move to a ski with more grip. At 34 mph the Syndicate OMNI is good through about 32' off.

[Horton]

@BGrow76 the Omni can be ridden into 32 off but there are much better skis in the HO line for skiing at that level. If you can run 32 on the Omni I bet you would crush it on something like the W2.

[BraceMaker]

11 hours ago, BGrow76 said:

 I know the CX Superlite is older than the OMNI. Is the CX Superlite wider or narrower than the OMNI? At some point the CX Superlite (just like the OMNI) will reach a point where the tail will not stay in the water which is when you need to move to a ski with more grip.

The syndicate omni is essentially a blend of the CX superlight and the TX they had two of the hybrid tail skis averaged them together and bang omni.

[owennibley]

Moved the bindings back a hole and tried the CX SL again.... same result. Blown tail and sprained rear big toe. Hurts like hell. This time I got video. 28'@34. I think my CX experiment has come to an end. Going to get the W01 or stick with my Omega Max.

https://youtu.be/1CDFiG6a44Q

[BraceMaker]

Your crash powerfully reminds me of a bit of Freddie's commentary from the San Gervasio this year.   Atleast to me what I'm seeing is that you moved your bindings rearwards which removes support in the tail and then you moved your upper body in and off the ski in the turn so the force holding the ski down went away and it slid out.

I would think instead you'd bump both bindings forwards a 1/16 from the initial 29.5 which might require slotting your holes.

And then personally if you can borrow a CG fin from someone in the correct foot forwards position and install it.  I've been extremely pleased with the outcome.  I'm sure there are other methods but on these skis I think they're a benefit.  Just opinion there.

 

[scoke]

You're a good skier. That ski isn't good enough for you and you're ready to move forward on something more stable and rewarding.

Nice video!

 

 

[Horton]

what @scoke said 

[Adam Caldwell]

When a ski drops you and blows out on a heelside turn unexpectedly, throw it on the fire and never look back.  No fin adjustment or boot position change will fix it.  In my experience, those things happen from a gross disconnect between torsional and longitudinal stiffness that is not suited to properly handle the energy put into it at your level of skiing.    Yes Asher can ride it at shortline, but, then again, its Will Asher.

Plus, its not worth riding a ski you second guess coming into what should be your best and most automatic turn in fear of another injury.  You look like a very distinguished and experienced skier.  You'll definitely appreciate something that has the ability to take you deeper into the course and feel safer and more comfortable doing so.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by adamhcaldwell

[owennibley]

Its been a month or so and the result of that CX Superlite crash was 2 broken bones and a heavily sprain big toe. I was in a boot for 4ish weeks and I was lucky to not have significant damage to the critical lisfranc ligament. I lost 6 weeks+ in the prime of summer and many other activities with the family were impacted.

Moral of the Story: Exactly what @adamhcaldwell said, if you can't trust your ski on you onside turn, throw it on the fire and forget about it.

I got back skiing this week using a rear boot to brace my back foot as flexion of the toes still hurts A LOT, and it was good. Started out trying the Works 01 and I can see how this ski can be amazing. Tons of grip and turns very well. However, I then tried my Omega MAX and yep, sticking with that. Actually ran 32' off yesterday, tied my PB after 6 weeks of not skiing. Funny how an extended rest can help your skiing.

[Garn]

@owennibley I love my Omega Max.  I haven't tried any of the new Works models and I don't plan on because my Omega Max works so well for me.  I think it is an underrated ski.

[liquid d]

Tail doesn't skip out on Will, so it's not the ski.😂

[owennibley]

8 minutes ago, liquid d said:

Tail doesn't skip out on Will, so it's not the ski.😂

Certain ski designs are more "in tune" with different style of skiers. I'm not an expert skier by any means but after breaking my front ankle 2 years ago and now my rear foot on the same ski doing the EXACT same type of crash, and not having any other problems on my onside turn on any other ski (I've tried many. Senate, Vapor, C75, Omega, Alpha, XTR, Works 01, Omega Max) I think my conclusion is that this ski is the problem. 

Comparing against one of the top ranked skier in the world for the past 20 years doesn't really say a whole lot. Will Asher is extremely talented and could ski on pretty much any ski and run shortline passes. 

Be happy to send the ski to you so you can test your theory..... 😂

[BGrow76]

Video of Will Asher running 39' at 34mph on the Syndicate OMNI. 

I heard it was a 64" Syndicate OMNI. @owennibley What size is the CX Superlite do you have?

[owennibley]

28 minutes ago, BGrow76 said:

Video of Will Asher running 39' at 34mph on the Syndicate OMNI. 

I heard it was a 64" Syndicate OMNI. @owennibley What size is the CX Superlite do you have?

Yes, Will Asher can run shortline in almost any configuration of ski. 

67" is the size of my CX SL. I'm willing to part with the ski for a very reasonable price. Bindings included. 

[liquid d]

In all seriousness, if you're trying to avoid the tail popping out to stay in one piece....move boots back and deeper on the fin.

[liquid d]

for any ski...

[Horton]

@liquid d I agree fin deeper or longer ( more fin ). Bindings back means more tail slide. Bindings forward takes pressure off the fin and will mean less slide

[Deanoski]

Less tip.  And or boots back 

[Horton]

@Deanoski 

I am hesitant to talk in absolutes because slalom can be counter intuitive but.....

Less tip is less fin and less fin is less traction and if you take enough traction away you will blow the tail.

Bindings forward takes pressure off the fin. Boots back transfers load to the fin and creates slide aka less traction.

(I can imagine a scenario where blowouts are caused by too much pressure all at once and some slide earlier in the turn might be the solution. I am actually playing with this idea right now and it is not really working out.)

 

[Deanoski]

@Horton  look at his #.  Way to much fin 

[Horton]

@Deanoski yea.... that ski has a wide flat tail with very little tunnel and no bevel. Maybe it is not the right ski for him. Too much fin should not cause the tail to come out.

[bkreis]

@owennibleythe video of falling at 2-4 looks like you fell to the inside instead of staying over your feet so the ski got buried. 

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton, Maybe I misinterpreted some of this thread, but heres a couple thoughts....

To contradict your "absolutes",  that less fin will cause more tail blow....

There are plenty of times where less fin area is actually the correct solution to prevent blowouts.  The issue tends to be most people are not making a large enough adjustment to create the necessary change.   

If the fin/boot setup is not allowing for the ski to get in front of the skier and start early rotation off the whitewater, then its likely the skier will need to force the turn at the ball.  A forced turn, or any turn where the ski pulls behind the skier before it comes in from apex often causes and instant shift of the skiers mass into the front of the ski.  This shift unweights the back of the ski and causes tail to slip in an instant and allows air to pull into the low pressure side of the fin and cause it to release and loose traction.

Trying to anchor the tail more by pulling it back or making the fin bigger can often "fix" a tail blow problem, but it also potentially comes at the detriment of more work to accelerate, more load and then potentially a lower buoy count due to the added load and increased resistance to rotation across the second wake and into preturn creating other issues.

In conclusion, there are multiple ways to correct tail blow.  It just takes a little deeper thought into how to manipulate the skis attitude, speed, and rotation in the water at the right places in the course and behind the boat, and going beyond what may be conventional for a slight "adjustment" of a few thousandths here and there.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell wise words 

[Drago]

Finally