Malibu announcement

[MNshortliner]

Maybe this has been discussed before but anyone know what and when this happened?

 

 

[buechsr]

A while ago in Georgia.  Provided much fodder for discussion at the time of the trial.

[MitchellM]

Disturbing as I am looking to buy one of these and potentially have occupants in the small bow area.  Not sure how this will affect my decision.

[lpskier]

It should not affect your decision at all. Riding in the bow is a bad idea in any boat, so Malibu is no worse and no better than any other bow rider. For what it is worth, the driver of the boat involved was not skilled and made significant errors himself. He was the grandfather of the child involved, as i recall. Terrible no matter how you cut the mustard. 

[Horton]

That is a very old & terrible news story. 

Unfortunately it doesn't take long looking around social media to see people doing preposterously dangerous stuff in boats. My Instagram feed is full of them and I am completely intolerant of this kind of behavior in real life. 

It's ridiculous that Malibu was ever held libel for this accident.

[dave2ball]

@MitchellM  LPskier is right. Those bows are very little free board  and have little space if something happens. Malibus safety bulletin that may affect insurance rates and coverage. OB is a great idea for families who want a comp boat but really doesn’t work.   

[LOTW]

I live on a large public lake that borders Ontario, Manitoba and Minnesota. I am constantly shocked by the numbers of boats driving around with people, mostly young children, sitting in the bow or even with their legs hanging over the front. I can't understand why this is even legal to be moving with people in the bow?? Luckily there have been very few boating accidents overall. As we approach the busiest weekend of the year, August long in Canada, the numbers of unexperienced boaters and subsequent shenanigans will escalate.

[jhughes]

The OB on our 200 is highly useful for anything BUT human seating. The aisle, with a wind blocker, is the most used "storage area" in the boat for dry items.

On a lift, you can roll up the boat cover and tuck it right into the bow. Handy.

[BraceMaker]

@MitchellM I was certainly in the minority around this discussion when the lawsuit was happening but do tell what changes your view of this boat unfavorably?

Could it be that a person shopping for a boat assumes that all boats with bow seating and a capacity label should be safe to use for the intended purpose - that form follows function?

We've all watched the qualified captain reels of people bow riding but every boat manual I've ever read expressly forbids sitting on the gunwale while in motion (seen plenty of people sit on the side of a ski boat while running back to the dock who wants to drip all over and get the seat wet) 

To be fair Malibu sold its assets (and liabilities) between the design and the lawsuit but under deposition testimony admitted that they literally cut a hole in a boat, installed seats, sold it as an open bow no testing, no warning sticker.  Its like if Ford sold you an F150 convertible and then when you hooked a trailer to it the frame broke in the middle and they turned to you and went no no no this was a convertible not a truck it doesn't tow! would you tow with your Porsche?  We didn't test this for towing, why did you assume it worked like our other F150 trucks (but we didn't label it that it doesn't)?

Edited July 27, 2023 by BraceMaker

[Broussard]

The issue with these "cutout bows" or step-overs (no walkthrough) is that there really isn't anywhere for the water to go when the bow fills up - totally different than say a 200 with a walkthrough.

[MISkier]

11 minutes ago, Broussard said:

The issue with these "cutout bows" or step-overs (no walkthrough) is that there really isn't anywhere for the water to go when the bow fills up - totally different than say a 200 with a walkthrough.

@Broussard, the bow is not sealed off from the rest of the boat in my 2009 Malibu LX.  It is open beneath the bow seat and there is a substantial path for water to flow under that right into the back of the boat.  It will drain and fairly quickly.

[BraceMaker]

4 minutes ago, MISkier said:

@Broussard, the bow is not sealed off from the rest of the boat in my 2009 Malibu LX.  It is open beneath the bow seat and there is a substantial path for water to flow under that right into the back of the boat.  It will drain and fairly quickly.

True but Malibu is essentially admitting that they have zero design stating the bow is safe to occupy in any of those hulls and therefore the easiest route is to state that its not to be occupied underway.

This is probably something the whole industry will experience as a ripple but that's a good thing afterall no one complains that natural gas now has odor to make sure you don't blow up your house...

[LoopSki]

I recently took and passed the California Boaters Card. It is completely worthless for the most part. I would have hoped it addressed things that would help lower these type of accidents.  I did learn how many blows of the horn went entering fog. 

[lpskier]

@LoopSki And how long your anchor line needs to be (3x water depth). MC has a brilliant clam shell cover for its open bow boats. Makes it look like (and repel water like) a closed bow boat. 

[Stevie Boy]

So with the possibility of Litigation, why produce open bow boats, if you want extra storage in the front put a lid on it.

Sometimes people just do not think it through.

Money Money Money !

On a slightly different note, how many skiers do you see, skiing straight towards the dock when they have finished, some of them not looking that stable, Doh !

[The_MS]

If it saves just 1 life, I am all for it😎

[buechsr]

2 hours ago, Stevie Boy said:

So with the possibility of Litigation, why produce open bow boats, if you want extra storage in the front put a lid on it.

Sometimes people just do not think it through.

Money Money Money !

On a slightly different note, how many skiers do you see, skiing straight towards the dock when they have finished, some of them not looking that stable, Doh !

 Employees quite literally acknowledged that they did little/no testing, provided no weight guidance, and laughed in videotaped depositions.  It's Malibu, unfortunately, who "didn't think it through".  Money no replacement for the death of child.  

For what its worth, driver was found 75% at fault.  

Edited July 28, 2023 by buechsr

[MitchellM]

On 7/27/2023 at 8:35 AM, BraceMaker said:

@MitchellM I was certainly in the minority around this discussion when the lawsuit was happening but do tell what changes your view of this boat unfavorably?

Could it be that a person shopping for a boat assumes that all boats with bow seating and a capacity label should be safe to use for the intended purpose - that form follows function?

We've all watched the qualified captain reels of people bow riding but every boat manual I've ever read expressly forbids sitting on the gunwale while in motion (seen plenty of people sit on the side of a ski boat while running back to the dock who wants to drip all over and get the seat wet) 

To be fair Malibu sold its assets (and liabilities) between the design and the lawsuit but under deposition testimony admitted that they literally cut a hole in a boat, installed seats, sold it as an open bow no testing, no warning sticker.  Its like if Ford sold you an F150 convertible and then when you hooked a trailer to it the frame broke in the middle and they turned to you and went no no no this was a convertible not a truck it doesn't tow! would you tow with your Porsche?  We didn't test this for towing, why did you assume it worked like our other F150 trucks (but we didn't label it that it doesn't)?

Well, I have a wife and three kids.  We all like to ski.  Using the pylon for skiing renders the rear seating of any ski boat useless.  We currently seat one person on the floor while skiing when we are all on the boat with a closed bow.  I had hoped that even this small open bow area would accomodate that one person safely.  We have done this with a SN200 OB in the past without concern.  Am I wrong?

[Wish]

Not just open bow boats. Friend of my daughters family rented a pontoon. Not experienced boat operators. Her friend was sitting on the floor up front. Legs dangling in the water while the pontoon was moving. The water pushed his legs back under the floor and he was pulled off and was run over. He was air lifted to a trauma center where they put his foot, that hit the prop, back together. He spent most of his senior year in a wheel chair. Fortunately for him and his family it was not worse. He fully recovered. Sorry to say, you can’t fix stupid. Not the  pontoon manufacturers fault. 

[MISkier]

@MitchellM, I think it's possible to use the bow seating safely, depending on the size of the occupants, the water conditions, and the driver's awareness of bow management when decelerating or encountering rollers.

I wouldn't put any large people in that bow and you absolutely must be aware of how the nose dips when slowing down or stopping.  Finally, any occupants of the bow must be seated correctly.

Many of the incidents also involve poor driving skills (essentially recklessness and/or lack of common sense) and no attention to safety.  A bad driver can even make it unsafe to sit in the observer's seat if they really try.

[MitchellM]

11 minutes ago, MISkier said:

@MitchellM, I think it's possible to use the bow seating safely, depending on the size of the occupants, the water conditions, and the driver's awareness of bow management when decelerating or encountering rollers.

I wouldn't put any large people in that bow and you absolutely must be aware of how the nose dips when slowing down or stopping.  Finally, any occupants of the bow must be seated correctly.

Many of the incidents also involve poor driving skills (essentially recklessness and/or lack of common sense) and no attention to safety.  A bad driver can even make it unsafe to sit in the observer's seat if they really try.

@MISkier thanks for this insight.  I agree completely.  Driving skill and attention to safety are paramount.

[MISkier]

@MitchellM, this is a private ski lake (one boat at a time), 34/-35, oldest bow occupant is a 15 year old weighing about 90 pounds, all USCG vests on the kids.

Edit:  I'm driving, not skiing.

Edited July 28, 2023 by MISkier

[Vernon Reeve]

The bow of the older responses dips down a lot without much freeboard (which is great for visibility while driving).  Putting a single adult up front greatly increases the chances of taking on water in a public lake.  So I just don't allow people up front while I'm driving, because of this and because of obstructing my vision.  Most people should know this already.  People need to quit blaming others for their own stupidity. 
The open bow is nice for additional seating/sun tanning while the boat is stationary.  And it's good for resale.  And for storing the boat cover like @jhughessaid.  

[Horton]

Tournament slalom boats are designed for smooth water and thoughtful drivers. If the driver has a few beers, or goes out in rough water or are generally reckless any boat could be dangerous. With a ski boat the margin for error is simply smaller.  I know a lot of people take these boats out on big natural lakes and if they are wise and cautions that is fine. Ski boats are designed to make a small wake and go straight.

The analogy I like is you would not take a high power sports car on dirt roads unless you really knew what you were doing. 

For the record I rarely take the bow lid off my ProStar. When I do I defiantly exercise additional caution. Nothing wrong with using the bow seating with discretion. 

[UWSkier]

In my Response LX, the bow seating is ONLY used for idle speed operation in the no wake area of the lake I frequent.  Before we leave the no wake zone, I make everyone move behind the windshield.

[buechsr]

It's funny how perception works.  On one hand, people use an open bow, lined with vinyl, seating, carpet, and grab rails to do precisely what  the objective presumption is its for, while said manufacturer's engineers testified they never performed testing to see what weight, speed, or usage would be reasonably safe nor provide a modicum of guidance or warning as to what that would be.  Tragedy ensues, 7 year old killed, and the post-mortem commentary is that "people", presumably the parents (who were not the driver) to "quit blaming others for their own stupidity".  Again, the driver was in fact found to be 75% at fault.  Had Malibu done testing, provided a bow capacity sticker (like they do now), and the same thing happens, I'm right there with you, Vernon.  But even boat manufacturers can't presume that all of their users have 1000s of hours of experience to know what we might, through experience, much of which has come through close calls ourselves.  How many times we collectively been hit with a handle and yet how many people religiously use a shock tube every set?  How many handle-related incidents have occurred and yet scores of people refuse a handle guard?  It's unfortunate, but sometimes behavioral changes come as a result of a terrible scare or outcome.  Forgetting to put the plug in is trivial, and stupid to forget, but yet I bet we have ALL done it before.  

It is too broad of a brush to say that open bows can't be used when underway, even in direct drives, big lake or small.  Personally, I'm shocked Malibu ever took a picture of anyone riding in a response LXi bow (03-06).  You could stuff that bow on a tournament lake in an emergency powerturn easily.  That said, a sunsetter lxi, or sport nautique, even a prostar 205, are quite different.  

I think the point for the OP is that you "can" use open bow comp boats, but they are far from a stern drive when it comes to their usage when in their intended purpose.  Be conscientious, but there's no need to steer clear of an open bow Malibu (except an Rlxi, lol).

[Shell]

I am all for NO one in the bow while pulling a skier, it’s just “DANGEROUS”, the kids at our club want to ride in the bow always, and I always say NO, not to mention it’s distracting. The MC has the bow lid and it has never been off at our ski club,the Nautique 200 is the open bow. I guess I’m considered the “mean” driver lol but I’d rather be safe than sorry, and personally, I can’t stand OB, I would never buy an OB for my personal ski boat, I currently own a 2019 Ski Nautique.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Shell

[LoopSki]

Im on the side of operator error. No matter what the activity you should not assume safety because someone else built it and sold it. If you don’t take the time to assess and accept the risks, then you shouldn’t do it. Unfortunately a child doesn’t have life experience to make their own wise decisions. Just the other day i took my son to a waterslide park. The slides were leaking like a shower, structure was made of wood. Rotted, split and rusty bolts. Im sure someone signed off on it. But my son and I both agreed its just a matter of time before this collapses. So we left. It may go years before it does, but it wont be with my family. Obviously in this case , the operator just assumed it was safe with his limited driving skills and unfortunately the kid paid the ultimate price. I have owned more OB ski boats and have swamped all them at some point other than my 2017 MC. I have no concern running it with my bow full of kids when conditions are there. But Im not a dummy and guess thats rare now days. 
 

 

 

[LoopSki]

I may be not popular for this but , I dont think ignorance should be rewarded with a settlement, but penalized. 
Awhile back I witnessed someone towing their boat off the tower behind a houseboat. I just laughed while watching this debacle. How stupid can you be.  I eventually stepped in.  They didn’t want to listen and eventually they swamped  it while it turned sideways. not my problem at this point.  Lol 

[BraceMaker]

On 7/28/2023 at 9:40 AM, MitchellM said:

Well, I have a wife and three kids.  We all like to ski.  Using the pylon for skiing renders the rear seating of any ski boat useless.  We currently seat one person on the floor while skiing when we are all on the boat with a closed bow.  I had hoped that even this small open bow area would accomodate that one person safely.  We have done this with a SN200 OB in the past without concern.  Am I wrong?

Nothing about this verdict changes the true utility of these boats.  But a group of skiers saying don't people who buy these open bow ski boats know better than to have people in the bow??? Is disingenuous. 

The vast majority of buyers of an open bow boat on this forum did so because they felt the resale was better.  Because that's true and it's only true because the buyers think they can use the open bow.

 

So we talk out of both sides or our mouthed unironically where we buy the Prostar and we buy it with bow cover and upholstery and then leave the upholstery in the garage and the cover on.  And I get it my rear seat lives in my garage and I have a closed bow boat and I think it would be absurd to do any real skiing with people in the bow of a ski boat.  

 

So if you have more people than fit one sits behind the driver on a cooler and leans up against the driver seat.   When done they sit on the cooler in the back because ski boats seat 3 people...

[aupatking]

This is not a “ski boat” specific issue. Almost every manufacturer of “runabout” type boats has an open bow. It’s more rare to find closed bow boats, at all, these days. Malibu was not liable for this, as much as any other manufacturer would be. Poor driving was the biggest factor. Someone who does not know how to handle a boat, of any design, should not be allowed to drive one. Sadly, that little nugget of common sense does not fly in this world. 

Watch “haulover inlet” on Instagram. I don’t think they could put a big enough billboard on that pass saying “get your dumbass out of the bow!”. 

I loved the bow seating in my old Prostar. Used it safely with no issue. The biggest problem I had was the same problem with my 196, every boat on the water is now 24+ feet long and the wakes on small bodies of water have gotten enormous. Difference is, I know how to safely operate a vessel. Even on my 26 foot Regulator I don’t let anyone ride in the bow in extremely rough seas or dangerous passes. Seamanship is still a thing

Edited July 30, 2023 by aupatking

[buechsr]

..the driver WAS found to be 75% at fault.

 

[BraceMaker]

On 7/30/2023 at 1:31 AM, aupatking said:

This is not a “ski boat” specific issue. Almost every manufacturer of “runabout” type boats has an open bow. It’s more rare to find closed bow boats, at all, these days. Malibu was not liable for this, as much as any other manufacturer would be.

Yes they do - but those boats are nothing like a Malibu Response.

Anchor a 19' Four Winns next to your Malibu Response and compare how they sit in the water - I can save you the trouble.  I can stand next to our boats at the sand bar and reach over the side of the ski boat into the side skin and grab sunscreen.  I have to jump to get over the side of our 19' run about. 

I can tie the ski boat up to the pontoon with bumpers, the rub rail on the run about would break the window on our ski boat, it sits nearly a foot higher in the water.

The two boats side by side in the shed? Same thing I can reach into the ski boat on the trailer, I have to climb up to get into the runabout, the bunks are the same heights on the trailer.

The two types of boats are nothing similar in terms of seaworthiness, we'll take the ski boat and slog across going 12 mph spray coming over the sides to a protected cove and then the runabout will rip back and forth high and dry with a load of people.

And yes we have people with those little boston whalers like the teens with their canopy on them and those boats are far more seaworthy than an open bow ski boat.  I'd take a 12' whaler on the great lakes to a Malibu Response with people up in the bow against a wake boat.

 

 

 

 

[morfoot]

Posted this on the forums here on BOS shortly after a settlement was reached as reported by the AJC.

 

 

[Mastercrafter]

Haulover never disappoints.  

 

 

 

 

View this post on Instagram

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A post shared by Haulover Inlet (@wavy_boats)

[Horton]

We see those videos on IG all the time and no one realizes how profoundly dangerous it is. 

[Kevin89MC]

I got a 1999 Response LX (step over open bow) a few years ago and have driven/ridden in my cousin's same '99 RLX since they got one new. My '89 ProStar was a great slalom boat, but it was tough to bring friends along when skiing. I brought water over the windshield on that boat twice as I was learning how to safely operate it with big waves around. One of the main reasons I got the RLX was because of the open bow. It is also better for slaloming, wakeboarding, footing, open water cruising, and the 1-2 times a year we feel like surfing it, it does OK-my youngest can even occasionally throw the rope. (We only do that on a big lake, out in the middle-I don't ever want to be accused of being that guy us slalom skiers hate.) I've had a little water spill over a few times, but I've never dunked the bow on that boat like I did on the old Prostar.  My wife and I will occasionally pull a skier in the course with 1-2 in the bow, but only on our private lake or if there are no other boats out on public water. My daughter is a great slalom course driver, but she will not drive with anyone in the bow, she just doesn't feel comfortable doing it.

We took it out on a very busy lake on the 4th of July on a big lake in the metro (White Bear Lake), as we had several folks who wanted to go for a pleasure cruise. There were a million other boats out, we maxed out our boat with people and I drove, and I warned everyone to stay seated at all times we were under way. I also warned them that I will occasionally need to throttle up if I see waves coming, sometimes with very little notice. I made sure we had USCG vests readily available for everyone plus a throwable. Our outing was great and uneventful, but we could not believe it when we saw someone out not just skiing, but dropping a ski. There were also 2-3 others out tubing. Absolutely insane to us. 

I'm certainly not the best boat driver, but I feel like I've spent enough time behind the wheel to have good common sense. I like to think that it is not that hard, but when I teach someone new how to drive, I realize that there is a ton of things I take for granted, and it really is not as easy as it looks. I'm certainly not one for more government regulation when it is not needed, but I firmly believe that it is way too easy to rent a boat, or get a vehicle license for that matter. More training and the right education would prevent a lot of accidents, both major and minor.

So if you know what you're doing, open bow ski boats are great and can be used safely. But I do agree that the risk factor increases quite a bit over runabouts/pontoons/etc. It's the ones that really don't know what they are doing that we all need to be ever watchful of, regardless of what they are driving either on the water or the road. 

[Andre]

Do like me: Just say no to open bow!  🙂

[aupatking]

So @BraceMaker, you saying Malibu is at fault? If not, I don’t get your argument. YOU “slog across doing 12mph” just proving my point, seamanship matters. My dad has driven an Inboard ski boat, my Nautique 196, a total of 1 time. Know how he took on a wake? Slowly quartering as it should be done by anyone who has any business driving a boat. 

Let’s say OK, open bow runabouts are not a good comparison. OK, say grandpa stuffed the nose on a bass boat. You think the outcome would be different? 

Malibu got screwed by an accident caused by a person who had no business driving a boat. I think I’d end myself if something like that happened to my child so understand, I’m not being callous about what happened. I’m just saying the fault was not Malibu’s 

Edited August 1, 2023 by aupatking

[03RLXi]

In that particular incident the court determined it was 75% driver fault, 25% Malibu LX. Could have just as easily been 80% driver, 20% in another Malibu or Mastercraft or Nautique open bows. They're not that different. Some 'better', some 'worse' depending how they're loaded. With all tournament ski boats a bit of weight shift could change the ratios either way considerably. Could have been 60% driver, 40% any Mal, MC, SNOB, Moomba, Centurion, etc fault if say they had a some weight under dash, near empty fuel tank, heavy driver and 2 heavy observers, etc moving the CoG forwards and lowering the bow gunwale. With runabout open bows generally being higher the driver % needs to be greater for an incident to occur, but it can still occur.

We all need to be aware, use good seamanship (seapersonship?) and be careful as it can happen to any boat.

[BraceMaker]

@aupatking  Yes I am saying Malibu was at fault.  I think a manufacturer who makes a product doesn't get a free pass based on what the end user's skill or knowledge or abilities are.  I would go so far as to say the contributory negligence finding was a poor judgement and let Malibu off the hook for what could have been a much harsher judgement.

I'll lay it out.  Malibu was on record in the lawsuit that they took a boat that didn't have an open bow and they put one in it, cut a hole in the bow dropped in seats, sold it.  They didn't do anything to evaluate their design. They are on record in the lawsuit saying they didn't even toss a few 100lb sand bags up there and drive the thing around they just started making boats with a hole in the bow and tossing seats in there.

Which brings up the motive, why would you make the product?  Well simply market share.  You want that person who is comparison shopping to go Four Winns horizon 19, seats 8, open bow, V8 engine, 19 feet long.  Malibu Response, 19 feet, V8 engine open bow seats 8.  But this one's a ski boat.  So I can have all the things I want, I can put my kids in the front and tool around the lake in a product that is exactly the same as this 4 winns.  And that buyer has made an assumption about the design the company has undergone.  He reasonably assumes that both of these brands in the design and testing phases of those boats have done the same work so that their products have similar safety margins because that's how product design works.  And you can be certain the sales guy at the dealership that had the open bow Malibu on offer wasn't going out of their way to dissuade the potential buyers of the boats from their decision to buy the Malibu vs. going across the street and buying the 4 winns.

You are making the assumption that all the buyers are people who have been around ski boats, I am making the assumption that Malibu made their business decisions to sell their product to people who would have otherwise bought a different product.  My comments about the difference in handling between these boats is based on personal experience.  That's not something a manufacturer of a product can rely on.

 

And yes I would go so far as to say that I personally believe that if you are mastercraft or nautique you at least bothered to test your product out on the water during the design phase.   Having driven the response and driven the mastercraft 205s in question the 205 is a far more seaworthy boat.  I don't think that was accidental.

 

[escmanaze]

I can't speak for Malibu, but I have the Nautique equivalent roughly.  We LOVE our step over open bow boat.  Obviously it's very important to know that there are times it can be used and times it shouldn't be used, and obviously, as a driver, it's another factor to take into account, and a basic accounting of common sense seems to work great for us.  However, as I go through life, I'm beginning to realize how many really dumb people are out there, and the numbers seem to be going up as time marches along.  More and more, we as a society "just can't have nice things" anymore.  So at that point, it probably is about time, in the decline of our society, that boats like this not be built anymore.  Really too bad, because we absolutely love it.  

[LoopSki]

@BraceMaker assume nothing. One would have to be a special kind of stupid to think a four winns ob and response ob are equally safe in rough water. I had a Ski Brendella OB. That boat waa a swamp machine. 

[MDB1056]

2 hours ago, escmanaze said:

@escmanaze  That's hilarious!

[03RLXi]

A way to look at design and utilisation of machinery, and in reality a useful way to look at pretty much everything in life, is think about the average person then recognise half of the population is dumber than that 

[DW]

Reality in 2023

[FSSPCat]

Okay so no one rides in the bow of my RLx anyways, so this isn’t a big deal for me, but it got me thinking about being able to put on some sort of attachable hard cover like the pro stars. Probably wouldn’t be cheap, but it would be cool if someone could engineer a design that attached to the bow rail. 

[DW]

@FSSPCat - simply install a vinyl / sunbrella tonneau cover, that's what numerous OB's have.  Mine snaps in place and is used during the cool days.

Thinking more about the whole play pen aspect, later model Malibu's offer a Lexan wind block that slides down at the windshield.  At least with that, if you swamp it, you can simply pull it up to let the water drain from the bow.

[Drago]

 

3 hours ago, DW said:

@FSSPCat -  At least with that, if you swamp it, you can simply pull it up to let the water drain from the bow.

After the pesky kids are flushed out of there

[DW]

@Drago And make sure to save any pets.