Minutes of IWWF Waterski Council Meeting

[Horton]

Meeting from December 2023

https://iwwf.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Minutes-of-the-IWWF-World-Waterski-Council_Final.pdf

[Horton]

Does anyone know anything about the T shaped handle mentioned in the minutes?

[Horton]

Quote

Open Women Slalom, Regina Jaquess, 5@10.25/55 - All relevant data reviewed including boat path and record approved. There had been some on-line comments about the boat path, based on the boat video showing some boat wash that appeared not to be straight. However, all the boat path data hade been checked and was good. The video showed wash, which did not represent the true path of the boat and position of the pylon.

Emphasis added 

Was there talk about that here? 

[Broussard]

10 minutes ago, Horton said:

Does anyone know anything about the T shaped handle mentioned in the minutes?

I saw that and was wondering what was going on there. Did some surface digging and wasn't able to find anything.

[skialex]

Rule 5.09

there shall be no sharp edges or protection, does this affect handles with plastic protection?

also rope should pass through the handle, so handles that the rope is attached to plastic end caps can not be used anymore in tournaments? 
I know at least of one of this type of handle.

@Horton @Broussard?

[thager]

I remember seeing a T-shaped handle in an old AWSA magazine many many many moons ago. Literally was a T shape. About only thing that appeared safe about it is you wouldn't be able to catch a head in it. Looked like one heck of a projectile though!

[rico]

T-Shape handle is used by Jason Peckam. I understand he developed it after putting his arm through the handle. He's also the one who is 3D printing flex tails for his Connelly.

[Horton]

Anyone have any pictures?

[Horton]

I confess this is not what I expected

[Rednucleus]

That handle would kill someone just tossing it off the dock!!

[101driver]

I agree with @Horton statement................I was well expecting more as in more developed.

On a positive note it seeks to address a real risk. A friend of mine who was a very competent skier had life changing injuries after falling and getting his arm through the handle, without prompt medical attention it could have been fatal.

So a good idea poorly executed would be the negative side of my evaluation. The design introduces a number of other risks which could be designed out.

My take is stick with the handle protectors which @Horton posted recently I don't know how to link them but maybe someone else can. They seem like a better solution.

[LeonL]

@Horton I don't recall any talk about boat path or wash.

[LeonL]

Sometimes I "split finger" the handle.  The equivalent of a split finger on a "T"  for me would my hand sliding completely off.

[lpskier]

That is, I believe, an older prototype of the “Peckham Handle.” The 3D printed connection between the handle and the rope is the same, but the photo shows someone else’s handle section. Jason now makes his own handle featuring a carbon core. @Rednucleus Don’t worry. The current handle is so light it floats. 

[swbca]

I broke my wrist when I hit a buoy and fell forward.  If you wrist or forearm was close to the center connection. the same instantaneous wrist break could happen before the handle moves away.

Edit:   That T-Design might be more dangerous than a convention handle.   I won't want that T being dragged over me in a fall because it might hook a neck or an arm or the back of your head with the end of the handle.  The conventional rope bridle would shield you from getting hooked by the handle in some falls.  The web is filler is the best.

Edited January 11, 2024 by swbca

[Kelvin]

@Horton I remember reading something about Regina's boatpath somewhere - I believe it may have been in some instagram comments.  I can't find it now.

[Horton]

@Kelvin yeah I now recall the comments. Many of us are guilty of looking at propwash and conflating it with boat path. There was a time when I was totally guilty of doing this myself. If you look at the video of Regina's 41 the propwash looks like it is not right down the center but that is not an indicator of where the pylon is. What matters is where the pylon is and in this case I believe it was good. 

[Slalom.Steve]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:27 PM, skialex said:

Rule 5.09

there shall be no sharp edges or protection, does this affect handles with plastic protection?

also rope should pass through the handle, so handles that the rope is attached to plastic end caps can not be used anymore in tournaments? 
I know at least of one of this type of handle.

@Horton @Broussard?

It says "There shall be no sharp edges or projections", not protections 🙂

Edited January 11, 2024 by Slalom.Steve

[skialex]

18 minutes ago, Slalom.Steve said:

It says "There shall be no sharp edges or projections", not protections 🙂

Yes you’re right… I mostly wrote this because of the section saying that the rope should go through the handle and there is at least one handle the uses plastic (or carbon lately) attachments to the side of the handle and the rope goes through the attachments and not through the handle. This is a tournament handle, does it mean that you can not use one anymore in tournaments. I don’t use this type, but I know few that are using it and one that stoped using it when it destroyed his ski… 😊

[The_MS]

Looks like a rope tow bar at a crappy down hill resort in Minnesota 

[Horton]

Call me crazy but I imagined there would not be any rope at all. I imagined it would be a 4'11 carbon pole with a handle at the end.  

[Slalom.Steve]

On 1/12/2024 at 1:07 PM, Horton said:

Call me crazy but I imagined there would not be any rope at all. I imagined it would be a 4'11 carbon pole with a handle at the end.  

Wait.. like a pole all the way to the boat? I guess you'd never get any slack! 😂

[Horton]

@Slalom.Steve seriously -  imagine if the whole handle assembly was semi-rigid. It would eliminate some potential injuries. I am not saying it is practical but am saying it might be worth evaluation. 

[Dano]

@Horton  A 4' rigid pole at the end of 60' of rope sounds terrifying. 

[Horton]

@Dano Maybe. IDK. Just suggesting it be thought about. Might be a terrible idea. Might be safer. 

[Rednucleus]

Don't think I would want to see that javelin coming back at me in the boat!

[Drago]

Can you imagine the handle dings?

[Horton]

okay some good points that my semi rigid comment is not well thought out. What if the handle section was as inflexible as a shock tube? it couldn't be nearly as bulky as a shock dude but what if it resisted coiling?

[bkreis]

that's what is great about sure path!! tracking the pylon as opposed to tail of the boat. it's changed all my training partners abilities.

[BraceMaker]

20 hours ago, Horton said:

@Slalom.Steve seriously -  imagine if the whole handle assembly was semi-rigid. It would eliminate some potential injuries. I am not saying it is practical but am saying it might be worth evaluation. 

You could take an old handle and using a fid insert something like PVC tubing and see what the effect was.

[lpskier]

The T handle, developed by Jason Peckham of NY, has been approved for tournament use. See IWWF Rule 5.11. Congratulations, Jason! 

[Broussard]

[Horton]

so is Jason going to market these? are these things for sale?

[Rednucleus]

I would like to see a vid of a skier interacting with this design in the course

[DW]

For me, improved accuracy in after ball handle grab would need work.  Appears to have minimal tolerance for that.  Would be interesting to try.

[Broussard]

Per Jason on Faceplace: "I’m working on the details of producing them now. My focus to this point has been on getting it approved for tournament use."

 

Edited January 26, 2024 by Broussard

[Taperflex]

Seems like the handle would twist towards the boat if you let go with one hand under a load, i.e. straightening your shorts after you get up. Might make getting up interesting.

[lpskier]

@Taperflex True, but significantly less than you might think. Hence the beauty of the attachment of the rope to the handle. 

[RAWSki]

looks ideal for jumpers riding back down the lake with rope between their legs   

[DW]

Last pic appears to simulate a mild radius style handle based on what looks like changing diameter on the bar from inner to outer.  For me the radius is key to minimize elbow pain.

[dchristman]

I think the conical handle taper is a key feature to make hanging on with one hand easier. It doesn't hurt that it also gives that mild radius effect.  Now it needs some kind of cushy end caps for ski protection.

[thager]

Logically, to me anyway, it looks like this handle design might keep a skier on the handle longer with  both hands before releasing prior to the buoy. Not necessarily a bad thing .

[DW]

Might create an interesting discussion on the ‘how to’ for measurement.  

[Broussard]

3 hours ago, RAWSki said:

looks ideal for jumpers riding back down the lake with rope between their legs   

Sometimes you have to take the T-bar to get to the most fun terrain

[JPeckham]

I was very excited when I got the news this was fully approved through IWWF. I’ve been working with a few individuals over the past months trying to get this into the rulebook this year. I can’t say thank you enough for the support many people have given me for this T-handle concept.

August ‘22 I fell forward around 5 ball at 39 off in practice and ended up with a partially torn bicep tendon, fractured radius bone and a large hematoma. I know many other skiers with similar stories with varying degrees of injury. This was the driving factor for this change.

I skied in practice on one version or another of this T-handle all of this past season. Ran tens of 39s on it. I would only switch back to a standard handle 1 day prior to a tournament. I wanted to minimize my exposure to potentially putting my arm back in that bridle. I won 35+ PanAms, placed 5th at the 55k West tournament in October and currently ranked 3rd on the 35+ IWWF ranking list. So it definitely didn’t hinder my performances training all year with the T-handle. It feels slightly different skiing with it vs. a standard handle, but I don’t believe that’s a bad thing.

My focus has been getting rulebook approval. So now I can shift gears and work on getting production set up. I’m excited to ski tournaments this year using my T-handle!

[Horton]

@JPeckham

what is the official name for the piece in the middle of the handle that extends down the rope?

what would be the downside to it being longer and extending further down the rope?

[Drago]

The Yoke

[JPeckham]

50 minutes ago, Horton said:

@JPeckham

what is the official name for the piece in the middle of the handle that extends down the rope?

what would be the downside to it being longer and extending further down the rope?

@Horton

Don’t really have an official name yet. Currently working on a website to be a source of information regarding design and production.

The shorter the central stiffening piece is the more tippy the handle is. The longer, the more stable it is especially in the turn. The current design is a balance between stability and allowing the handle to tip out of the way if it strikes anything in the water.

[MISkier]

I was going to suggest yoke for the name of that connecting piece, as @Drago did.

[DW]

@JPeckham - congrats, nice innovation.

As you have navigated the approval process does the yoke dimension have to comply with the 11.5" +/- 1.5" specification?  Have you experimented to find an 'ideal' dimension?  Curious as to how / where the 44 lb. load will be applied?

Once you get closer the questions of diameter, radius, elliptical, replaceable bar etc. will be more pertinent.