Tee handle video

[tru-jack]

Thinking of a temporary solution to add the small bump/knob on end of the handle similar to a baseball bat. Maybe use a tape similar to the end knob used on a hockey stick. Totally customizable to the users preference. 

[Than_Bogan]

@tru-jackGood idea.

But I'm gonna be surprised if people end up wanting a nub at the end.  Baseball bats and hockey sticks are swung, and the centrifugal force then tries to pull it out of your hand.  I don't see anything analagous in slalom handle usage.

[Rednucleus]

Wondering if a nub could make it harder to get your hand back smoothly on the handle?

[LeonL]

Panda, sly grin or not.  Sure it can be measured, but no device I've seen is currently compatible.  They will require mods.

Oh, and I thought @Horton was the only one who bestowed Pandas.

[Adam Caldwell]

I think the nub idea makes sense...if you happen to only get a partial grip on it, that extra material might help the couple fingers you did get a hold of it with to stay on it better.  Doesn't need to be big...but something maybe better then nothing.  

Need some A/B tests to really know what would be better.

[JPeckham]

1 hour ago, LeonL said:

Panda, sly grin or not.  Sure it can be measured, but no device I've seen is currently compatible.  They will require mods.

Oh, and I thought @Horton was the only one who bestowed Pandas.

Pretty simple modification can be made to be able to measure this and traditional handles. Actually the IWWF rules were changed prior to the conception of this product. For 2023 season the rule was a 2cm wide block be used when measuring. This is my solution.

[JPeckham]

There is a lot of interest in some kind of nub around the end of the grip. Having skied on this handle all last season I think it’s unnecessary.

My assumption is that there is a fear of a hand sliding off the end of the handle and that is where this nub would be helpful. As you can see in the photo the handle is pulling only 15-20deg off perpendicular to the direction of force (line through the rope and the center of the hand). This is no where near enough of an angle to where the hand would slip off the end. All last season I never had a hand slip off the end, nor did it ever feel like it was about to.

Having said all that, I have no problem adding this nub feature in as long as it does serve a purpose, and I realize that for some it might. I’m going to get some more skiers testing these prototypes hopefully in the next few weeks. I’m taking in all the information I can to try to make safer option to the traditional handle that will appeal to the majority of skiers. 

[swbca]

I appreciate the innovation, and would be interested in trying the handle.

However, as skier who broke his arm with a conventional handle putting me out of skiing for a season, and out of tennis for two years, I am uncertain about the tradeoff in risks with the traditional bridle versus your new concept.

To be brief, when a skier falls, and his head or a hand goes into the water ahead of your handle, either end of the handle could do damage when it catches up to the skiers neck or arm.  I am not certain the handle would spin away from your neck or arm fast enough to avoid injury.

On the other hand, in certain falls, the two legs of the triangle on a conventional bridle can act as a guardrail to move the handle away from the neck or arm unless the neck or arm went inside the triangle as happened when I broke my arm.

I don't like being a sceptic,  but I wouldn't be comfortable being in the water when the open ended handle is being pulled past my hear, neck or arm.

I believe there is a tradeoff of risks here and I am not sure which arrangement is safer.   Has the bridle with the mesh been discussed here ?  Isn't that the safest option ?

 

 

[BraceMaker]

8 minutes ago, swbca said:

On the other hand, in certain falls, the two legs of the triangle on a conventional bridle can act as a guardrail to move the handle away from the neck or arm unless the neck or arm went inside the triangle as happened when I broke my arm.

 

 

Tough to say - a deep water start is possibly the most risk for this situation I'm sure we've all had someone flub a start and launch the handle.  That's something that could easily be modeled using this handle and say a trick ski release.  Set up a ski and a rope tension it and release the handle at the ski (in a tank of water) and see what happens.  I don't know that the polypro bridle is stiff enough to actually move the handle out of the way under this sort of situation.

[Mateo_Vargas]

@JPeckham have you made a bent version yet?

[JPeckham]

19 minutes ago, swbca said:

I appreciate the innovation, and would be interested in trying the handle.

However, as skier who broke his arm with a conventional handle putting me out of skiing for a season, and out of tennis for two years, I am uncertain about the tradeoff in risks with the traditional bridle versus your new concept.

To be brief, when a skier falls, and his head or a hand goes into the water ahead of your handle, either end of the handle could do damage when it catches up to the skiers neck or arm.  I am not certain the handle would spin away from your neck or arm fast enough to avoid injury.

On the other hand, in certain falls, the two legs of the triangle on a conventional bridle can act as a guardrail to move the handle away from the neck or arm unless the neck or arm went inside the triangle as happened when I broke my arm.

I don't like being a sceptic,  but I wouldn't be comfortable being in the water when the open ended handle is being pulled past my hear, neck or arm.

I believe there is a tradeoff of risks here and I am not sure which arrangement is safer.   Has the bridle with the mesh been discussed here ?  Isn't that the safest option ?

 

 

@swbca I agree that any handle or other piece of ski equipment has risks, including this handle. In the case of my specific injury with a traditional handle I was using a brand name handle and same brand mesh protector. That did not stop my arm going into the bridle up to my armpit. Then I was thrown from the turn buoy line all the way in to 5’ outside the boat guide line. I feel extreme lucky I wasn’t injured much worse than I was.
This handle could hit something as it gets pulled by, but I’d take a hit and release any day over caught and hope to get my arm or worse out. Everyone has their own experiences that drive their decisions. This is my decision based on what I’ve been through. 

[JPeckham]

10 minutes ago, Mateo_Vargas said:

@JPeckham have you made a bent version yet?

@Mateo_Vargas Yes and no. Some early prototypes when I was reusing brand name handles for testing featured a bent handle. Since I’ve been producing them 100% in-house I haven’t tested a bent handle. However, this can be easily adopted. 

[swbca]

1 hour ago, BraceMaker said:

Tough to say - a deep water start is possibly the most risk for this situation I'm sure we've all had someone flub a start and launch the handle.  That's something that could easily be modeled using this handle and say a trick ski release.  Set up a ski and a rope tension it and release the handle at the ski (in a tank of water) and see what happens.  I don't know that the polypro bridle is stiff enough to actually move the handle out of the way under this sort of situation.

 

[swbca]

  I don't know that the polypro bridle is stiff enough to actually move the handle out of the way under this sort of situation.

1 hour ago, BraceMaker said:

I don't know that the polypro bridle is stiff enough to actually move the handle out of the way under this sort of situation.

Each fall that involves the skier in contact with a handle has many variables.   I believe in most cases when a skier dives into the handle with arms or head, the handle and the skier's "parts" end up under water . . the skier is slowing down rapidly and the handle keeps going.  The tension applied to the two harness legs by the drag of the handle in the water would stiffen the rope legs of the triangle improving their ability to deflect the handle away from an arm or neck if the skier lands ahead of the harness, rather than landing directly into the triangle.  The end of handle could still ding the skier, but bridle could be the guardrail that prevents it from being high force unyielding collision that breaks bones.         

[Oldkier]

I had my arm go through the handle at 4 ball at -35 with a handle guard on it. The handle guard kept my head out of it, I know this because I had a bruise across my face. I ended up with a torn abdomen blood clots in arm and legs. I had abdominal surgery and been on high doses of blood thinners for six months. I go back to Dr March 4 to find out what the next steps are. I have always used shock tube handle guards and now will be using a tee handle when I am cleared to ski again.

 

 

[Gloersen]

All in favor of this ingenious Safe-T handle coming to market - raise your Right hand.

The ayes have it; sign me up! 

Thanks for the great work Jason.

[Than_Bogan]

@GloersenSafe-T!!  Genius name.

[Ali]

8 hours ago, JPeckham said:

Pretty simple modification can be made to be able to measure this and traditional handles. Actually the IWWF rules were changed prior to the conception of this product. For 2023 season the rule was a 2cm wide block be used when measuring. This is my solution.

Like it, would definitely have to change our Miami one to math that

[T-fromTO]

I had the opportunity to try this handle for a set last week at Okeeheelee. Paul Turner had one and was offering to let a few people use it. Although I think the handle is a great innovation, and may work for some people, I will be sticking with a regular handle. The biggest problem is that you need to grip the handle right at the center. If your hand grips even an inch or two away from the center, there is the very real feeling of your hand wanting to slip off. Because of this, there is no flexibility on where you place your hand on the handle.
 

With a regular handle, there is a bit of play with where you grip and if you grip near the end of the handle, your hand won’t slip off. But with this handle, you have to get your hand in the same exact spot every single time and I found it distracting to have to think about that. I saw some talk of putting a nub at the ends of the handle, and I actually think it could be helpful. Also, the material on the handle feels slightly more slippery than the material on a regular handle.

I saw a lot of chatter about how this handle would affect your technique. I personally didn’t feel it change anything about the way I ski for better or for worse. I don’t see it having a drastic effect on the way a person skis. 

[6balls]

Very interesting, hard to see much downside other than it warps our traditional brains. 

[JPeckham]

@T-fromTO Thanks for the feedback and I’m glad you were able to try it! I definitely agree it feels slightly different. Some people got on it and immediately skied well, while others have taken 2-4 sets before feeling like normal on it.

When I started skiing on this handle I had no desire to ever get back on the traditional handle. Because of that I think I just adapted fairly quickly to the differences in this handle. First set felt awkward, second set was better third set felt normal. I do grip towards the center on this handle against the ropes. That puts me in my “home” position. On a traditional handle my “home” was out against the ropes. I have grabbed in different locations on this handle accidentally which feels weird, but it was the same grabbing a traditional handle in different locations. With the traditional handle if I grabbed towards the center, more times than not I would misgrab on the next buoy. So in that way I actually feel this handle is better.

The handle you used had a slightly different grip shape than normal. It was conical and oval. This is something I’m testing out. Not sure if it’ll make it to final production. I felt the same things in the grips you were feeling, but I wasn’t sure if it was the grips or me from not skiing in 4 months. This was part of the reason I left it down there for more testing to be completed on it. Also, I am testing multiple grip materials and I appreciate your feedback on this one. 

[chrislandy]

17 hours ago, swbca said:

To be brief, when a skier falls, and his head or a hand goes into the water ahead of your handle, either end of the handle could do damage when it catches up to the skiers neck or arm.  I am not certain the handle would spin away from your neck or arm fast enough to avoid injury.

Surely a very similar situation could happen with a normal handle? And add into that situation your head or arm passing into the triangle, so on balance I reckon it has the least worst outcomes vs the traditional handle.

Looking at the video and photos, the T isn't extremely stiff like a carbon rod and the stiffer central section is quite short so there is some additional wiggle room in how the handle reacts in such a fall. If the centre bit was longer, then yes it could act as a hook.

I've been doing some more sketches based on what I've observed (which I won't put up) and there are some really good engineeringy funkiness going on and I can see how much development has gone into getting this far 👍 

[mattm]

Great idea.  Glad it’s an option but what happens if you let go with one hand when you are directly behind the boat to adjust shorts or fix a glove around the turn island?  Does the handle stay stable or does it flop over?

[JPeckham]

43 minutes ago, mattm said:

Great idea.  Glad it’s an option but what happens if you let go with one hand when you are directly behind the boat to adjust shorts or fix a glove around the turn island?  Does the handle stay stable or does it flop over?

@mattm In this situation the handle will tip, but only to the point where the rope and tip of the central bridle stiffening piece are directly in line with the center of the hand attached to the handle. If you are hanging onto it way out at the end it will tip more than if you are hanging onto it more in the center. This is the same reaction as a traditional handle. If your hand that you’re hanging onto the handle with is centered the handle doesn’t tip at all. If your hand is out against the outer rope it tips to the point that the rope is inline with the attached hand.

I personally have never had an issue with the handle tipping and sliding out of my hand or even feeling like it was going to. 

[Horton]

@JPeckham

putting safety aside, from a purely performance perspective, what are the trade-offs as the yolk gets longer or shorter? is there a point where longer is not felt by the skier anymore? and at what point is it too short?

( I apologize if this question is already been answered )

[JPeckham]

5 minutes ago, Horton said:

@JPeckham

putting safety aside, from a purely performance perspective, what are the trade-offs as the yolk gets longer or shorter? is there a point where longer is not felt by the skier anymore? and at what point is it too short?

( I apologize if this question is already been answered )

@Horton If it were made as long as the bridle length on a traditional handle the skier would feel no difference between this and a traditional handle. If it were made more than 1in shorter than the current designs (different lengths for 12” vs. 13” handles) the amount of tip starts to get distracting on the water. Obviously this is different for different people. There is a minimum and maximum length requirement for this yoke coming out in the updated rulebook I believe it to be 10-18cm.  

[RobHazelwood]

12 minutes ago, Horton said:

@JPeckham

putting safety aside, from a purely performance perspective, what are the trade-offs as the yolk gets longer or shorter? is there a point where longer is not felt by the skier anymore? and at what point is it too short?

( I apologize if this question is already been answered )

as a member or the torn bicep because of arm through handle club this is a super interesting concept! Has there been any testing of having a narrower triangle to reduce risks of grabbing the handle in the middle? I know it sounds silly but in big events I find myself getting a little nervous and feeling a lot less natural when getting my hand back on the handle! Would interesting to see how small you could make it before it becomes unstable, even a 1/4 inch could make a difference in the big moments.
 

I guess On the flip side there would be no negatives to having a wider handle to reduce risks or missing the handle on the wide side so pros and cons for sure.

Either way awesome idea and would be excited to give it a go one day! 
 

Side note… a lot of events we go to do not abide by the 2cm rule for handle measures. And either way lots of places who do follow the rule use a square block as it a lot more durable and accurate (once the L bracket bends). So even through the L bracket may work in theory, unless they’re only going to allow the L bracket at events to use that it could be an interesting challenge

[RobHazelwood]

3 minutes ago, JPeckham said:

@Horton If it were made as long as the bridle length on a traditional handle the skier would feel no difference between this and a traditional handle. If it were made more than 1in shorter than the current designs (different lengths for 12” vs. 13” handles) the amount of tip starts to get distracting on the water. Obviously this is different for different people. There is a minimum and maximum length requirement for this yoke coming out in the updated rulebook I believe it to be 10-18cm.  

Would the 10-18cm rule apply to your design if they could change the rule book? I’d always assumed that rule was due to a safety concern of your head going through which would be nulled by your design? Maybe have one rule for open triangle handle designs on one for closed?

[JPeckham]

20 minutes ago, RobHazelwood said:

Would the 10-18cm rule apply to your design if they could change the rule book? I’d always assumed that rule was due to a safety concern of your head going through which would be nulled by your design? Maybe have one rule for open triangle handle designs on one for closed?

The 10-18cm rule is specifically for this design. A traditional handle minimum is 24cm. 

[MitchellM]

I can't knock it until I try it, but I can't wrap my head around the fact that the handle doesn't tip more and thus more easily pull the handle through your grip.  Seems like a different type of grip is required.  More of a squeeze with the one hand as opposed to a fingertip grip in a traditional handle.  I'm a rower and we focus on the fingertip hang on the handle as opposed to gripping the handle which is wasted energy.

Also, with the angulation, don't you have to reach somewhat further to grab the handle with your free hand after the turn?  This may not seem like much, but every little additional distance could make a difference when things get tight.

[VONMAN]

@JPeckham

On 2/19/2024 at 11:32 AM, JPeckham said:

My assumption is that there is a fear of a hand sliding off the end of the handle and that is where this nub would be helpful. As you can see in the photo the handle is pulling only 15-20deg off perpendicular to the direction of force (line through the rope and the center of the hand). This is no where near enough of an angle to where the hand would slip off the end. All last season I never had a hand slip off the end, nor did it ever feel like it was about to.

Have you tried a 15-20 deg forward bent handle to offset the 15-20 deg off perpendicular line force direction?

[DW]

As a radius or bent handle skier, one of my curiosities would be the reverse angle effect with the one hand handle hold on elbow pain (my reason for the bent handle).  On the plus side, effect is not while in loaded condition so perhaps moot.  

 

[VONMAN]

@DW Good point, as radius or bent handle skier my reason was always to take the load off my wrist's while in the loaded condition. For me when I skied with a straight handle my wrist's would hurt. Agree to disagree, all I know is I have no wrist or elbow pain.

[Rivvy]

Cool concept!  Thx.   I bet a couple of videos showing how the handle reacts to potentially “hooking” a skier could put that idea to bed.  Maybe tow the rope around a dock post or something to see if it catches or just deflects off.  I’m betting it just quickly deflects off.  If so I could be “hooked” on the concept 🙂

[Horton]

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