Tee handle video

[03RLXi]

Here's a video of the tee handle in use

https://www.facebook.com/100071408267877/videos/1377925579512108/

More info

https://www.baselinewaterski.com/news/new-t-shaped-handle-to-be-trialed-in-tournaments-aims-to-prevent-handle-injuries/

My physics knowledge is limited but to me anyway it seems like if the central 'tee' length is similar to normal triangle length the feel would be similar

[chrislandy]

You can see in the video that the handle wavers and pivots at the leg tip where it joins the rope during hand on/off and at slacker points.

 

Whether it's better or not will likely be personal preference rather than any performance benefit, when under load the physics/mechanics are the same, it will be unequal loading at light load conditions that's when things change and feel different (for better or worse)

[swaterkd]

I skied right up to my average on my first set on it.

[03RLXi]

@chrislandy why will it feel different at light load? If weight is about same and connection to rope is same won't it be same? 

[mike_mapple]

Id love to see that same skier, same pass with a normal handle just to compare form / how the rope reacts, not that it really makes a difference, thats just my thoughts. 

[chrislandy]

@03RLXi  it's a force-vector mechanics "problem", with a traditional handle (eg Syndicate 41 Tail), the chords forming the triangle from the handle forwards cannot take compression so the handle cannot rotate off axis as much. I struggled to explain it in words so did some sketches, I think the explanation is that under light one handed or unequal hand loads, to keep the handle dead in line with the rope then you have to put some twist into it from your hand/arm/body.

I'm not sure if it's better / worse, just different.

Now, if you ski with a "solid" handle like the radar barlock pro or ML Ergo series where the upper section of the rope is plastic lined then you're likely not to feel too much difference as the rope section can take some compression (so the force sketches above for that system would be somewhere in between)

[TSki]

Looks good, as a consumer I'd definitely be interested. Judging by the video, I personally don't think I'd struggle to adapt to this any more than I would when making any sort of handle switch.

[chaloux]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:33 AM, swaterkd said:

I skied right up to my average on my first set on it.

Was wondering if you'd chime in!  After showing me the prototype when I visited I was curious if there had been any development.  

[Wish]

[Than_Bogan]

COOL!

I can easily imagine some weird alignment issues as it should be easier to rotate.

But once accustomed, I wonder if it would result in way fewer misgrabs!?  There is nothing at the end to get fingers around AND if you grab too close to center, the rope actually guides your hand to the handle (I would think?).

[Horton]

 

 

 

 

View this post on Instagram

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A post shared by John Horton (@ballofspray)

[Horton]

 

 

[Horton]

My apologies to Jason. Normally I would have inserted both of the above videos directly from his Instagram, but the internet was not cooperating with me this morning.

[DvarianDan Johnson]

Certainly safer. No chance of getting anything caught .

[03RLXi]

35 minutes ago, Horton said:

My apologies to Jason. Normally I would have inserted both of the above videos directly from his Instagram, but the internet was not cooperating with me this morning.

Thanks for posting up alternative links. I could only put facebook as don't have instagram, X etc. If it wasn't for viewing skiing stuff I'd probably drop facebook too 

[swbca]

@chrislandy pointed out the big difference.   You could see in the video when holding with one hand the handle twists your wrist so the free end of handle is pointed toward the boat - much more than with the traditional triangle.  It puts weird forces on your wrist and the free end of the handle is further from your body than normal when you want to grab it..  

[03RLXi]

I'd love to try one!

Wondering if changing the length of the rope support 'tee' can make it feel just like a triangle handle? If the tee length is the same dimension as rope connnection onto triangle handle tdoes that make it feel the same? @chrislandy arrows seem to say no, if I'm reading them correctly. So make the 'tee' longer? Shorter? A certain stiffness? Intriguing!  I hope development goes well and it becomes a thing

[scoke]

Saturday i put my hands on this handle at the dock. Very interesting design and legit. It's obvious the thought is being put into it, passion and care. 

Very cool innovation as well as skiers solving problems "for us". inspriring. 

 

I could see this thing going somewhere as well as a handle we use in our boat. 

[Than_Bogan]

I love this idea and would volunteer as a Beta Tester.  (And I mean a real tester -- I guarantee to send a LOT of detailed feedback!)

I see obvious safety advantages, but I would also caution against assuming a strict safety upgrade.  There are ways a T could get a hold where a triangle almost never would, such as between your legs or under your arm pit.  I strongly suspect this is a better risk profile than what we have now, but new ideas always have unforeseen consequences.

[epnault]

I like innovation like this.  Might have some issues with it collecting weeds, buoy or course lines?  The open bar end could grab other things like a life vest, etc..

[03RLXi]

Best keep our mouths closed when skiing as a triangle won't fit but.... 🤣 

[swbca]

4 hours ago, 03RLXi said:

I'd love to try one!

Wondering if changing the length of the rope support 'tee' can make it feel just like a triangle handle? If the tee length is the same dimension as rope connnection onto triangle handle tdoes that make it feel the same? @chrislandy arrows seem to say no, if I'm reading them correctly. So make the 'tee' longer? Shorter? A certain stiffness? Intriguing!  I hope development goes well and it becomes a thing

If the rope connects to the T at the same distance from the handle as the location where the 2 legs of the triangle meet, it would act the same as the conventional handle.   I wouldn't want that handle coming up behind my neck when my driver is picking me up.  Its a bit like a detuned grappling hook. 

[JPeckham]

On 2/12/2024 at 4:22 PM, mike_mapple said:

Id love to see that same skier, same pass with a normal handle just to compare form / how the rope reacts, not that it really makes a difference, thats just my thoughts. 

Hey Mike, I understand the curiosity about comparing the angles.  My wife also suggested that I do a side-by-side video but I have no plans of skiing on a traditional handle ever again now that my handle has been added to the IWWF rulebook.  Maybe someone else will do a comparison video at some point but you won't see it directly from me. 

[JPeckham]

8 hours ago, Than_Bogan said:

COOL!

I can easily imagine some weird alignment issues as it should be easier to rotate.

But once accustomed, I wonder if it would result in way fewer misgrabs!?  There is nothing at the end to get fingers around AND if you grab too close to center, the rope actually guides your hand to the handle (I would think?).

Your assessment is correct.  I skied with this handle all of 2023 and I only had 2 misgrabs all year, much less than previous seasons.  The center piece is a helpful guide when bringing your hand to the handle to ensure that both hands are always evenly spaced.

[JPeckham]

3 hours ago, epnault said:

I like innovation like this.  Might have some issues with it collecting weeds, buoy or course lines?  The open bar end could grab other things like a life vest, etc..

As far as the course lines go, the entire handle floats so that should decrease the chance of it getting stuck on cables or bungee cords.  I have not experienced it getting caught on anything so far.  If a life vests fits correctly, I wouldn't think that would be an issue.

[Horton]

@JPeckham at this moment as you're typing people are texting me pictures that I'm assuming they got from you. I think you've got everybody's attention

[JPeckham]

5 hours ago, 03RLXi said:

I'd love to try one!

Wondering if changing the length of the rope support 'tee' can make it feel just like a triangle handle? If the tee length is the same dimension as rope connnection onto triangle handle tdoes that make it feel the same? @chrislandy arrows seem to say no, if I'm reading them correctly. So make the 'tee' longer? Shorter? A certain stiffness? Intriguing!  I hope development goes well and it becomes a thing

Your thoughts are correct.  If the center piece is the same length as the opening of a traditional handle, they would feel exactly the same.  However, I have intentionally made the center piece shorter in order to maximize safety benefits while also maintaining an adequate about of stability. The more easily the handle pivots, the easier it can move if it becomes caught on something such as a ski or body part.

The current design is the result of testing different center piece lengths and choosing the one that was the best balance of performance and safety.

Thanks for the encouragement!

[JPeckham]

4 hours ago, Than_Bogan said:

I love this idea and would volunteer as a Beta Tester.  (And I mean a real tester -- I guarantee to send a LOT of detailed feedback!)

I see obvious safety advantages, but I would also caution against assuming a strict safety upgrade.  There are ways a T could get a hold where a triangle almost never would, such as between your legs or under your arm pit.  I strongly suspect this is a better risk profile than what we have now, but new ideas always have unforeseen consequences.

I agree 100%. There are inherent risks in waterskiing no matter what equipment you use.  This handle is no exception.  

[JPeckham]

On 2/12/2024 at 5:17 AM, chrislandy said:

You can see in the video that the handle wavers and pivots at the leg tip where it joins the rope during hand on/off and at slacker points.

 

Whether it's better or not will likely be personal preference rather than any performance benefit, when under load the physics/mechanics are the same, it will be unequal loading at light load conditions that's when things change and feel different (for better or worse)

Yes, personal preference will definitely play a part in whether skiers like this handle.  Much the same as double bindings vs. rear toe, kevlar gloves vs non-kevlar, etc. 

[JPeckham]

@Horton apparently word travels fast on the internet.  Blown away by the response so far!

[JPeckham]

1 hour ago, swbca said:

If the rope connects to the T at the same distance from the handle as the location where the 2 legs of the triangle meet, it would act the same as the conventional handle.   I wouldn't want that handle coming up behind my neck when my driver is picking me up.  Its a bit like a detuned grappling hook. 

That is one of the reasons that the length of the center piece was designed to be smaller than the triangle of a traditional handle...to allow it to tip out of the way when needed.

[Horton]

@JPeckham you see my DM?

[LK_skier]

If this becomes available, I'll be purchasing and making myself and my son ski with it no matter what. It's safe and I love that. Please keep pushing @JPeckham

[chrislandy]

13 hours ago, 03RLXi said:

I'd love to try one!

Wondering if changing the length of the rope support 'tee' can make it feel just like a triangle handle? If the tee length is the same dimension as rope connnection onto triangle handle tdoes that make it feel the same? @chrislandy arrows seem to say no, if I'm reading them correctly. So make the 'tee' longer? Shorter? A certain stiffness? Intriguing!  I hope development goes well and it becomes a thing

It would depend on which handle you are comparing it to, mechanically speaking you could reduce the T length to get a similar feel to a stiffer triangle handle (one where the ropes are PVC tube lined), which I suspect as @JPeckham has done from his comments. But you couldn't replicate the feel of a non stiffened handle as to stop the handle rotating you need to introduce a moment force though your wrist and arm to keep the handle in line (the bottom sketch). 

Although, I would think that given the ease of adding a shield in the triangle to achieve a similar level of safety, the aim was not to replicate a typical handle, with the same feel and make it safer but to develop handle technology.

 

I love seeing this stuff as it goes with my own philosophy of trying different things out, some work, some don't. To get this far in development, it's obviously been working. 👍

 

[swaterkd]

17 hours ago, swbca said:

@chrislandy pointed out the big difference.   You could see in the video when holding with one hand the handle twists your wrist so the free end of handle is pointed toward the boat - much more than with the traditional triangle.  It puts weird forces on your wrist and the free end of the handle is further from your body than normal when you want to grab it..  

It is opposite of what you are saying.  In the reach it does do that, but when you pull the handle back it come closer to your body.  I feel me back arm is closer to my body with this handle then a traditional, especially farther out toward the buoy.

[ALPJr]

Great innovation. I wouldn’t be surprised if this design becomes the standard in the coming years. I’ll get one for sure once they’re available.

[KRoundy]

Woo hoo! Something fun to talk about while we wait for winter to be over. 🙂

Seriously though, what a great idea. Keep at it. Have you considered putting, for lack of a better term, "ends" on the handle? I'm thinking of some sort of cap or bump/ridge. Something that would tactilely (is that a word?) tell your fingers you were close to the end of the handle.

[buechsr]

3 hours ago, ALPJr said:

Great innovation. I wouldn’t be surprised if this design becomes the standard in the coming years. I’ll get one for sure once they’re available.

100%...Can't wait.  I'd even give up a buoy or 2, ski dings etc in trade for massively increased safety benefits, particularly for kids.

[JPeckham]

14 minutes ago, KRoundy said:

Woo hoo! Something fun to talk about while we wait for winter to be over. 🙂

Seriously though, what a great idea. Keep at it. Have you considered putting, for lack of a better term, "ends" on the handle? I'm thinking of some sort of cap or bump/ridge. Something that would tactilely (is that a word?) tell your fingers you were close to the end of the handle.

@KRoundyThanks for the support! The idea of a ridge of some sort around the ends has come up. I’m not against it if people feel more comfortable with it. I’d need it designed in a way that doesn’t want to grab anything as it’s being dragged in the water. Probably first iterations won’t have extra features like that, but could be added in future models. I personally always put my hands so they are against the ropes in the center, so I’m never really worried about what’s going on on the end. 

[JPeckham]

16 minutes ago, buechsr said:

100%...Can't wait.  I'd even give up a buoy or 2, ski dings etc in trade for massively increased safety benefits, particularly for kids.

@buechsrI don’t believe anyone will need to give up any buoys with this handle, however, I agree with you! I never want to go through another arm injury or worse. My daughters are #1 in G1 and #2 in G2 nationally. They used a prototype handle starting after nationals last year. 

[buechsr]

Just now, JPeckham said:

@buechsrI don’t believe anyone will need to give up any buoys with this handle, however, I agree with you! I never want to go through another arm injury or worse. My daughters are #1 in G1 and #2 in G2 nationally. They used a prototype handle starting after nationals last year. 

Awesome!  Mine aren't #1  But got a top 10 at Okee last year!  New fiberglass on the lift so hoping for a productive year!

[MISkier]

@KRoundy and @JPeckham, I had the same thought about some sort of knob-shaped end to the handle.  Something like the end of a baseball bat, still with curves and rounded surfaces to avoid acting like a hook, might be a positive addition.  It would need to be subtle and not too obtrusive in size, but with enough texture to provide that feedback to the skier's hands.

[rfa]

Hi Jason, 
I saw your Dad (from the boat) and you (from the tower) a couple of times last summer at Pangaea. I wondered all that weekend how/what you had to change to ski with that handle. Likely not much, based on what I saw and your scores. Anyway, just wanted to add to the all the congrats here on the great progress you're making in getting this to a commercial product. Continued best wishes!
Hopefully, see you this summer. 

[aupatking]

I will be getting one.

After watching @JPeckham skiing video, there is way less “tipping” than I was thinking there may be. Even that small amount looks negligible at the point your free hand returns. 

I won’t EVER have this issue, but I read Nate once saying he bends handles. With the load in the middle, I wonder how much reinforcement a T-handle will require. Again though, that’s just a curiosity question. 

One more thing: I’m ready to see Horton ski it. 

[BraceMaker]

17 hours ago, MISkier said:

@KRoundy and @JPeckham, I had the same thought about some sort of knob-shaped end to the handle.  Something like the end of a baseball bat, still with curves and rounded surfaces to avoid acting like a hook, might be a positive addition.  It would need to be subtle and not too obtrusive in size, but with enough texture to provide that feedback to the skier's hands.

Really unlike a closed bar you could use slip on grips bit of adhesive new rubber hit em with the heat gun.  

[LeonL]

Every measuring device that I've ever seen at every tournament will have to be re-engineered for this handle.

[jayski]

[teammalibu]

Talked to Jerry Jackson and he said he had no issues measuring this handle. I don’t see it being a problem!

[MichaelGoodman]

I have also seen Jason ski with this handle and he is a beast

a great skier I think he is ranked 3 or 4 in mens 3 

 

[chaloux]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:04 AM, KRoundy said:

Woo hoo! Something fun to talk about while we wait for winter to be over. 🙂

Seriously though, what a great idea. Keep at it. Have you considered putting, for lack of a better term, "ends" on the handle? I'm thinking of some sort of cap or bump/ridge. Something that would tactilely (is that a word?) tell your fingers you were close to the end of the handle.

If I recall correctly, I believe Jonathan was experimenting with this very idea, he had just finished adding some material and was waiting for it to fully cure before trying it out. I've never had an arm go through the handle but I sure as fook DO NOT want that to ever happen to me. I would switch to this handle type in a second.