55's / Gates Adjustment for Wind

[Mastercrafter]

Curious how the Ball of Spray collective adjusts for headwind and tailwind passes when it comes to edge-out out for the glide. 

Things that could change are timing, intensity, duration of lean, or....?

What do YOU do in the wind to help ensure a tight line and width when it's time to enter the course?

 

[Chirod]

Mostly just guess, a little later in had wind,a hair earlier in tail, hopefully after your warmup passes you have a feel for it for the pass that matters. More important then all that though is keeping a tight line through the glide on your gate. Even if you have more or less speed then 'ideal' if the line is tight you'll be able to choose when you cut for the gates which is usually good enough.

[Horton]

@Mastercrafter 

This is a hard problem. Generally, I do not like to adjust as much as become less susceptible to the elements.  

You can tweak your "timing, intensity, or duration of lean". If you go this route I strongly suggest adjusting only one. Ideally, intensity and duration of lean are always a constant.

Things that will make the wind less of an impact are a slow transition out of your lean to get wide and a tight line all the way to your turn for the gates. If the line is always tight the pull of the boat will have more impact on you than the wind. 

[thager]

I generally adjust my pullout point by approximately one ski length in the appropriate direction. Earlier if tailwind  and later if headwind. Everything else stays the same. If I need more in the following HD/Tls I add another estimated ski length in progression. If it's flipping gale WAG!!!  

[Mastercrafter]

I’ve always been one to change the timing and try to keep everything else pretty constant.

I took some sets at Swiss this weekend in some pretty gusty head/tails and it was suggested that timing and duration stays the same, intensity changes.

I tried it and eventually ended up about where I wanted to be, but it was hard to break old habits and the first few tails I was way late with no line to turn in on. 

Certainly different methods can work; just curious if changing intensity is common practice.

 

@Horton your method and point of becoming less susceptible to the wind is certainly something to remember.  

 

[rq0013]

I’ll move my gate pull out slightly forward or back but that is just to give me some piece of mind.
 

I really just focus on mechanics. In a tail wind I really try to stay connected as I stand up. I try not to “separate the pull, from the standup.” It’s all one motion. This keeps me connected. I also make sure I continue to move out in a tail wind and not run “parallel” with the boat too long. 

[ETskier]

Someone a log time ago told me not to change my pullout. Change my set up instead. Set up a foot or so toward the wake for headwind, away for downwind.. Worked for me.

[twhisper]

I wonder how many skiers get too focused on the green balls, and are not watching the gate balls enough as they are pulling out. I see the green balls, but most of my focus is actually on the gates. I think this helps with a sense of speed and timing, and allows for on-the-fly adjustments. 

I also wonder how well most of us would do if there were no green balls like back in the day.

[Mastercrafter]

Just now, twhisper said:

I also wonder how well most of us would do if there were no green balls like back in the day.

I set up a floating course without 55's for a while and admittedly did very very poorly. 
I'll try to keep your point in mind of actually focusing on the gates more. I think I focus on greens, then width outside 2/4/6 buoy line, THEN gates. 

[Horton]

@twhisper

I use the green balls simply as a timing marker to dictate when to move left. Are you looking at the red balls before your initial move left?

[Mastercrafter]

Another interesting 55 thought came from when I took a set with Sacha a couple years back. He asked where the greens are on the boat when I stand up into the glide... I had no idea. I believe he said that with almost every pass, he stands up into the glide when the greens are at the windshield. 

When I remember to look and do the same it works out pretty well. Keeps from staying on edge too long and generating too much speed relative to the boat. 

 

[twhisper]

@Horton I think I am seeing both at the same time rather than one and then the other.

I don't know if there is any "system" that can work regardless of conditions. There's just too many variables, especially for skiers traveling to different sites for tournaments. For me, it's all about the visual and the feel, and adjusting accordingly.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

To answer the original question of this thread I just move the spot where I pull out depending on the wind, I don't try to adjust the duration of my pullout. 

Building off what @twhisper is saying, I definitely am looking at the gates once my pullout has started. This isn't for everyone, but I stand in the same spot and use the left 55 and one ball and use that intersection of them to start my pullout.  (I always felt this was extremely consistent)  Once my eyes leave there I'm looking at the gates for timing and adjustments like Terry said.

[Horton]

@ColeGiacopuzzi

All I know is if the green balls are on the wrong anchors and a little bit wide it completely blows my mind.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

its just adjusting after the 1st pass, no big deal. 

[Drago]

11 hours ago, Mastercrafter said:

Another interesting 55 thought came from when I took a set with Sacha a couple years back. He asked where the greens are on the boat when I stand up into the glide... I had no idea. I believe he said that with almost every pass, he stands up into the glide when the greens are at the windshield. 

When I remember to look and do the same it works out pretty well. Keeps from staying on edge too long and generating too much speed relative to the boat. 

 

That's impossible, right?

[Horton]

@Mastercrafter I think I know what you are trying to say but what you wrote does not make sense ( or you are crazy in the coconut )

[Mastercrafter]

5 hours ago, Horton said:

@Mastercrafter I think I know what you are trying to say but what you wrote does not make sense ( or you are crazy in the coconut )

Okay I admit I re-read it twice and though I am crazy in the coconut,  it is in fact what I meant to say, so can you elaborate? 

[thager]

Hmmm? Can't say I've ever looked at the 55s as I begin my glide at width.

[Horton]

@Mastercrafter most skiers are roughly halfway between the green balls and the red balls when we start our glide. The green balls are way way behind us. The green balls are way behind the boat.

[Mastercrafter]

26 minutes ago, Horton said:

@Mastercrafter most skiers are roughly halfway between the green balls and the red balls when we start our glide. The green balls are way way behind us. The green balls are way behind the boat.

We’ll you have said Sacha is a bit of an outlier 🙃

Maybe the picture I’m painting or my terminology is misleading, but at 36, this seems to work. 34, perhaps everything is back a boat length for me.  

I trust you more than I trust myself, but as far as I can tell, if I initiate the edge-out 1-1.5 boat lengths before the greens and use the greens at the windshield as my timing mark to begin to stand up, it generally feels pretty good. 

… but maybe I am going too early, too hard, and making it work when really there is a better way. 

 

 

[Horton]

@Mastercrafter

so you're looking at the boat & green balls as you go left?

[Mastercrafter]

21 minutes ago, Horton said:

@Mastercrafter

so you're looking at the boat & green balls as you go left?

Below is my very accurate, technical illustration of where I am and when I move left. I stand just outside the trough on the flat water, and yes, the greens are still clear ahead of the boat when I move left. 
 

And here is when I start to stand up, but I obviously continue to get higher on the boat since at this point, I’m going faster than the boat. 

[VONMAN]

@Mastercrafter That seems way to early. You would have time for a smoke and a pancake before rolling in for the gate.

[Horton]

@Mastercrafter

as a 55k skier this sounds crazy but I believe you

The drawings are amazing:-)

[skihacker]

@VONMAN now we're talking about different skiers have different amounts of glide, one of my ski partners pulls out when he hits the greens, virtually no glide and a one handed gate, I turn left when the bow is almost at the gates, maybe 2 seconds of glide, I've never liked longer glide I would always drift narrow. Others can hold that width and go left really early. I don't change anything in a headwind and try to go just a tad early and narrow for a tailwind.

[Mastercrafter]

2 minutes ago, Horton said:

@Mastercrafter

as a 55k skier this sounds crazy but I believe you

The drawings are amazing:-)

I'm certainly no expert but even at 55 or 52, greens are still ahead of the boat for me, but right now it's not really ski season and I'm not as on top of things as I would be mid-summer. Perhaps I'll report back mid-May

 

And thanks...I think if I spend all day, I could make a flip book of a boat and skier going through the course. 

[VONMAN]

@Mastercrafter Sorry, but I started skiing back when 55's didn't exist. (Walled Lake 1988) And then 13 years at Dixboro, they have 55's but the short setup on the one end is a moot point. You have to start your pull out at the 55's.

[Horton]

since we're going down this rabbit hole...

not only is boat speed going to change your pull out point but so is your rope length. a skier at 28 may pull out a lot sooner than a skier at 38 off

[Mastercrafter]

39 minutes ago, Horton said:

since we're going down this rabbit hole...

not only is boat speed going to change your pull out point but so is your rope length. a skier at 28 may pull out a lot sooner than a skier at 38 off

Yeah, I was going to mention, most of my skiing is at 22 or 28. 

[twhisper]

Would be interesting to see an overhead overlay of a skier pulling out, and how those line up for each pass 32'-43'.

[Horton]

@twhisper

you know we could probably organize that

[twhisper]

I have a drone that I have no idea how to fly🤣

[Horton]

@twhisper

we can find a teenager

[Rednucleus]

Sounds like a @MarcusBrown project

[Dano]

Well I thought for sure mastercrafter was crazy.  But watching some drone footage of myself, the boat is certainly still going through the greens as I begin to stand up into my glide. I have never paid attention to that before.  

[Horton]

@ColeGiacopuzzi and I talked about this today. I would need to see the video to believe that this is typical. 

More to the point I do not think looking at the boat on the way left is recommended. I am 100% looking at the Red balls from the first move left and then continue through the glide and turn until just before get to the first white water on the way to one ball.

[Dano]

@Horton  This isn't me.  He's a pretty good skier.  He is gliding and the boat has just cleared the 55's.  pass is -32@34.  This is interesting to me.  like you I watch the red balls as soon as I move left.  I would have guessed the boat is much deeper when I begin my glide.

 

[scoke]

This thread is probably the most bizarro backwards technical information posted on here.

For the guys  standing  up during the boat is in the greens or looking at the greens in the glide: 

 

 

[Horton]

@Dano Super rough math - if the boat is going 55k that is about 50 fps. In this video, it takes roughly 2 seconds from my first move left until my ski is flat. For the boat to be anywhere near the green balls when I roll out I would have to start left maybe 75 feet sooner. Are you telling me skiers are pulling out when the boat is 50 to 75 feet in front of the green balls? There is some disconnect here.  

same here

 

[Mastercrafter]

Some pics, for what it’s worth:

… and I’m not arguing that this is correct, it’s just how I’ve been going about it and what goes through my head.

This was a particularly windy day, to the point I was barely able to run tailwind passes.  Pictured pass below is into the wind, 36/-25’ (half loop).  8 months ago but I suspect I started left a little later, and held an edge longer than normal because of the headwind.

1) Starting edge-out, 55’s circled:

2) 55’s are at windshield here. Can’t see but I followed along in the video. Obviously still on edge:

 

3) About stood up. 55’s at swim platform:

 

4) In glide, 55’s circled.  Take away the stiff headwind and I suspect at this point, the 55’s would have still been alongside the boat.

[Horton]

Either my perception of what's happening out there is wrong or what you were doing that day is wild or the photos are deceiving. IDK

[Dano]

@Horton  I’m as astonished as you are. But the skier In the photos I uploaded runs into -38 at every tournament, and probably every day.  I have to think  he knows what he is doing.  

[scoke]

9 minutes ago, Dano said:

@Horton  I’m as astonished as you are. But the skier In the photos I uploaded runs into -38 at every tournament, and probably every day.  I have to think  he knows what he is doing.  

Running 35’ from the whitewash as a turn in point due to drifting on the gate while behind 6..2L engine with single pick zero off but can’t run 38? Uhhhhh. Something smells. 
 

the video or pic you posted looks like an older Malibu with probably perfect pass yes? 
 

got video from the boat? 

[Dano]

@scoke wth are you even talking about?  He is no where near the whitewash.  Sure that day was an older Malibu.  I can assure you it looks exactly the same behind his 2023 prostar.  

 

[Mastercrafter]

Here’s the video but it’s pretty hard to pick stuff out with the YouTube compression. Unfortunately regular pylon cameras don’t show anything and this is the only drone shot I have. 

 

 

[lefty]

From Jamie Bull’s insta, think it’s at -39. Opened my eyes to the  time a good skier is in the glide stage, which I m guessing is due to the speed generated so efficiently on lean out. I’d be halfway back to centre over this length of glide  

 

[Drago]

15 hours ago, Mastercrafter said:

Below is my very accurate, technical illustration of where I am and when I move left. I stand just outside the trough on the flat water, and yes, the greens are still clear ahead of the boat when I move left. 
 

And here is when I start to stand up, but I obviously continue to get higher on the boat since at this point, I’m going faster than the boat. 

I guess it might be possible for a lefty.

To see the 55s through the windshield at the start of your glide--This means your working pull is around 10', then you glide. At the windshield, with 20' of work... , maybe. Pretty aggressive.

IDK, I've done a one-handed gate for 20 yrs, where I "sprayed" the 55s @ 39. Did a two-handed gate all of last summer and stunk up the lake.

[ForrestGump]

Right or wrong, I was taught to vary my transition, not the intensity, place, or length of pull out.  So in a head wind, snap the ski up out of the pull out lean. Which serves to keep the energy up in the glide, counteracting the headwind.  

[Horton]

@ForrestGump

I am pretty sure this is exactly wrong.  A gradual rollout will allow you to keep a tighter line. If you dig left and then pop up you will likely lose the line and be free of the pylon.