Sethski

As a Skier: So, personally (and I don't know if I am a good example because I have been struggling at 39 lately) I ski at 34.2 because I want to know and trust things at that speed and know where I can be atient and where I need to pick up the pace. For me, there may be a time when I need to ski 36 in practice, but right now, most of my issues are based around trusting I can get to the next buoy without overworking it. My mentality is still based on 36 mph so I rush turns when I don't need to. That's just me as a skier. As a Coach: Now, as a coach, I would say there is no correct answer. I feel like on this forum everyone always seems to look for the CORRECT answer. I think we all know, there really is no perfect equation. Jeff Rogers may start at 36 and dial it down as he goes and that works for him. IF you have ever spent time skiing with him or just being around him, you would also know that it probably wouldn't matter. He knows he can run 41 at both speeds. Some people may need to challenge themselves in practice so it feels like slow-mo in a tnmt. Some people may not get enough of an opportunity to practice a specific line length by doing this. Still others, may need to learn the speeds. I think there are a ton of great thoughts on here. Don't pigeonhole yourself by picking one way. The same goes for technique. Keep an open mind and find what works for you. Sorry for my ambiguous post...but that's my two cents...not that anyone asked. I hope you are all having a great summer and it continues well into the fall. Now I am going back to work so I have time to go take a ski set so I can learn how to start skiing well!

I have to agree with MAtt Page. The fact is that behind different boats, the wakes and trough differ slightly at different line lengths. Anyway, provided you are stacked and balanced coming into the wakes, you are building pressure in the ski that can be released by advancing the ski slightly as you move through your transition. IF the timing is late, then the trough will take complete advantage of you. Just my two cents...

@bishop8950‌ I wish you would head over this way and ski with me (when it's warmer) as I would learn a lot just from watching and analyzing how you "get it done" so regularly. As for your question, I feel like it can be used for all levels (with minor adjustments) as long as a skier learns to be balanced and stacked from the buoy to the wakes.

@skijay, I personally think it should just go away. I believe the process takes so long that we can't pin it down as a precise moment. Obviously there still is an "edge change", but I think the focus should be on the elements that (coupled together) make this happen, we would all benefit from erasing it from our vocabulary...just an opinion of course.

@jdk99, I find it interesting and appreciate the varied perspectives I read on here. It always seems to help both my skiing and my coaching to read different perspectives in order to relate to students as well as to keep my own thoughts fresh and creative. There is no RIGHT WAY, but I think we all need to keep trying.

Hey guys...some random thoughts based on things I just read: I agree that you can't just decide you need to transition early if don't have a position that generates effective acceleration into the wakes Someone mentioned this in this thread or another, but I agree that if you are already on the back of the ski coming into the wakes (like Horton's 26mph video--no offense @horton) , the transition is not the key at this point...you most likely will have to pull a little long and reap the consequences at the next turn "Edge Change" IS NOT SYNONOMOUS with "Transition". I agree that in video's of high end skiers, you don't see Andy or most great skiers "Changing Edges" at the center of the wake. The "edge change" is a result of advancing the ski out onto a path that is outside of the handle path and the ski rolls over onto the turning edge later. I don't think we should use the terms interchangeably, and personally I actually only use the term "edge change" in coaching when i am referring to what the transition has historically and errantly been called. Don't always thinking watching a pro or watching a guy who is better than you means that you are watching proper technique. You may be missing the one thing (or ten things for that matter) that actually make them effective because you are focused on one thing that they don't do in an efficient and effective manner. It happens in any walk of life, for example a bad golf swing where the club face gets aligned well at the point of impact but in the most unorthodox manner. Although I may not use the same drills, @lpskier is right about practicing by using drills. We are all trying to get better in a sport where what we all do most of the time in practice is equivalent to "scrimmaging" in any other sport. Drills, DRills, DRIlls, DRILls, DRILLs, DRILLS!!!!! @horton asked a couple of things in the "Reverse C" thread, "Do you think that most skiers achieve this action by simply relaxing their legs a little and letting nature take it's course? YES, I BELIEVE THAT HAPPENS AND I BELIVE OTHERS DO IT BY ACTIVELY SLIDING THE FEET, ADVANCING THE HIPS, ADDING TRAILING ARM PRESSURE, ETC. What you wrote above makes perfect sense to me but I have never heard it explained like this before. Do you think it is really important that a skier actually try to do this move? I BELIEVE AT A CERTAIN POINT, SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE TO PROACTIVELY CREATE A TRANSITION IN MOST CASES. IF YOU ARE PERFECTLY STACKED AND YOU KEEP YOUR BODY ALIGNED BEHIND THE ROPE, WHEN YOU CROSS THE CENTERLINE, IN A PERFECT WORLD, THE IMBALANCE OR "MISALIGNMENT" WILL CAUSE THE SKI TO ADVANCE OUTSIDE OF THE HANDLE ARC...BUT I FIND THAT IT IS VERY RARELY THAT SIMPLE Last thing...@a_b said he lost me when I used the word "squirt" and I hate that word, so how about this: When approaching the wakes in a stacked position, any of the ideas mentioned in caps above are merely a "catalyst" to cause the pressure from the boat to collapse our structure in a beneficial way. When the stack becomes misaligned with the force acting on it, the base gets blown out in the direction it is advanced...this creates the cast out. In other words, you use the force (that is perceived to be acting against you) to your advantage by merely acting as a catalyst in the situation. Ok, that's about it...except for one more thing: ROLLLLL TIDE ROLLLLLL! Oh, one more thing, when in doubt on a topic, read anything posted from @SkiJay‌ as he is a scientist, student, and athlete!

Hey guys...some random thoughts based on things I just read: I agree that you can't just decide you need to transition early if don't have a position that generates effective acceleration into the wakes Someone mentioned this in this thread or another, but I agree that if you are already on the back of the ski coming into the wakes (like Horton's 26mph video--no offense @horton) , the transition is not the key at this point...you most likely will have to pull a little long and reap the consequences at the next turn "Edge Change" IS NOT SYNONOMOUS with "Transition". I agree that in video's of high end skiers, you don't see Andy or most great skiers "Changing Edges" at the center of the wake. The "edge change" is a result of advancing the ski out onto a path that is outside of the handle path and the ski rolls over onto the turning edge later. I don't think we should use the terms interchangeably, and personally I actually only use the term "edge change" in coaching when i am referring to what the transition has historically and errantly been called. Don't always thinking watching a pro or watching a guy who is better than you means that you are watching proper technique. You may be missing the one thing (or ten things for that matter) that actually make them effective because you are focused on one thing that they don't do in an efficient and effective manner. It happens in any walk of life, for example a bad golf swing where the club face gets aligned well at the point of impact but in the most unorthodox manner. Although I may not use the same drills, @lpskier is right about practicing by using drills. We are all trying to get better in a sport where what we all do most of the time in practice is equivalent to "scrimmaging" in any other sport. Drills, DRills, DRIlls, DRILls, DRILLs, DRILLS!!!!! @horton asked a couple of things in the "Reverse C" thread, "Do you think that most skiers achieve this action by simply relaxing their legs a little and letting nature take it's course? YES, I BELIEVE THAT HAPPENS AND I BELIVE OTHERS DO IT BY ACTIVELY SLIDING THE FEET, ADVANCING THE HIPS, ADDING TRAILING ARM PRESSURE, ETC. What you wrote above makes perfect sense to me but I have never heard it explained like this before. Do you think it is really important that a skier actually try to do this move? I BELIEVE AT A CERTAIN POINT, SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE TO PROACTIVELY CREATE A TRANSITION IN MOST CASES. IF YOU ARE PERFECTLY STACKED AND YOU KEEP YOUR BODY ALIGNED BEHIND THE ROPE, WHEN YOU CROSS THE CENTERLINE, IN A PERFECT WORLD, THE IMBALANCE OR "MISALIGNMENT" WILL CAUSE THE SKI TO ADVANCE OUTSIDE OF THE HANDLE ARC...BUT I FIND THAT IT IS VERY RARELY THAT SIMPLE Last thing...@a_b said he lost me when I used the word "squirt" and I hate that word, so how about this: When approaching the wakes in a stacked position, any of the ideas mentioned in caps above are merely a "catalyst" to cause the pressure from the boat to collapse our structure in a beneficial way. When the stack becomes misaligned with the force acting on it, the base gets blown out in the direction it is advanced...this creates the cast out. In other words, you use the force (that is perceived to be acting against you) to your advantage by merely acting as a catalyst in the situation. Ok, that's about it...except for one more thing: ROLLLLL TIDE ROLLLLLL!

This is something I posted in the "Reverse C" thread and thought it might be appropriate here as well, but mind you it is unedited from another post. Sorry for my laziness: -------- My two cents...and although I have followed this thread from my cell phone, i think I may have missed several comments in my thoughts below, but this is the basic idea of what I feel is misconstrued, what needs to happen, what actually does happen, etc. SEMANTICS: I think throughout a large part of this thread the vocabulary each of us uses can be the issue (or at least art of it). For example, I have only used the term "Reverse C" as an indication of the alignment of my body through the turn in order to keep my hips sitting over the inside edge of the ski without dumping my shoulders. However, that's my way, but it's not necessarily the only way or the right way. Here, @AB uses that terminology, I get what he is saying, but I use that term differently and have a slightly different approach to it, but some of the theme of it is the same as my personal approach as well as a piece of the various approaches I use with students. CONFUSION IN WATCHING VARIOUS SKIERS/PROS: Everyone has a different twist on it, however I believe the main premise (as set forth in AB's drawing of the crossing archs of the ski, the handle, and the shoulders. Some do it with added power, some pull long, some transition earlier, some dip the handle, some counter extremely, some stomp on the front foot, some crouch, some slide the hips to the inside edge thorugh the turn, and some stand tall and aligned, but the goal is the same...cast the ski out to a path that is outside the handle arc in order to get max width out of the ski without having to as high on the boat and place the ski on edge for a more automatic turn. WHAT I THINK YOU SHOULD DO AND WHAT I TRY TO DO: I need to preface this by pointing out that (as you all know) I am not the best slalom skier in the world or even close with my own application of technique. That having been said, here goes... Stacked: I try to approach the wakes as stacked as possible so that my body is aligned behind the rope. This creates efficient transfer of pressure from the rope and upper body down to the ski which in turn creates speed as the ski (by design) attempts to alleviate that pressure. Purposely MIS-Align in order to transition effectively: I try to "mis-align" my self behind the rope as I pass through the center of the wakes in order to "squirt" (hate that word, but it makes sense to me) the ski out to the apex of the turn. That may need further explanation. My thought is that the entire body is under pressure at its greatest when you reach the center of the wakes (because you are most directly behind the force that is pulling you). At that point, if your feet move slightly ahead of the "stack," this misalignment causes the ski and lower body to accelerate ahead of the rest of the body which (provided you maintain your upper body position relative to the boat and rope) will cause the ski to advance out onto a path that is increasingly wider than that of the handle as it swings up beside the boat. This is where that ski may ride flat for a moment but will very slowly and consistently roll out onto the turning edge, but without having immediate inside edge pressure as the centrifugal force will still maintain outbound energy out to the apex of the turn. I think it is important to point out that this movement probably does create the "Reverse C" as I have seen it in pictures of many skiers, but I am not sure that is our main goal. I also want to point out that (and this may be where I differ slightly from what a few of you think and in fact from what I used to think) this is only a slight movement. The pressure from the boat is what creates the majority of that "cast out". Our job is just to slide the feet or lower body ahead so the pressure does actually "squirt" the ski out. If we drive the ski ahead too much we will lose our footing and then inadvertently give up our position relative to the boat and start to ski down course into a loose line. This is they way I look at it and I believe the way I see quite a few people do it. It may not be the only effective way, but I'd say if you look at the physics of it, this is one of the most efficient ways to accomplish a great transition. Lastly, I just want to address the timing of it all. In this thread or a similar I seem to recall reading that the transition happens later as the line shortens as evidenced by watching great skiers at shorter lines. Rather than suggest that I know what any one else is doing in their approach, I would like to suggest two things as food for thought. First (and this was pointed out by someone else...maybe @Horton, the skier is traveling a great deal faster at shorter lines and therefore it may appear to all be accomplished slightly after the wakes, secondly, the shorter the line gets the more mistakes everyone makes...pros included. Again, just my two cents...and I may have left a few things out because somehow I got roped into going shopping on Black Friday, so I gotta go! Happy Thanksgiving. -------------------

My two cents...and although I have followed this thread from my cell phone, i think I may have missed several comments in my thoughts below, but this is the basic idea of what I feel is misconstrued, what needs to happen, what actually does happen, etc. SEMANTICS: I think throughout a large part of this thread the vocabulary each of us uses can be the issue (or at least art of it). For example, I have only used the term "Reverse C" as an indication of the alignment of my body through the turn in order to keep my hips sitting over the inside edge of the ski without dumping my shoulders. However, that's my way, but it's not necessarily the only way or the right way. Here, @AB uses that terminology, I get what he is saying, but I use that term differently and have a slightly different approach to it, but some of the theme of it is the same as my personal approach as well as a piece of the various approaches I use with students. CONFUSION IN WATCHING VARIOUS SKIERS/PROS: Everyone has a different twist on it, however I believe the main premise (as set forth in AB's drawing of the crossing archs of the ski, the handle, and the shoulders. Some do it with added power, some pull long, some transition earlier, some dip the handle, some counter extremely, some stomp on the front foot, some crouch, some slide the hips to the inside edge thorugh the turn, and some stand tall and aligned, but the goal is the same...cast the ski out to a path that is outside the handle arc in order to get max width out of the ski without having to as high on the boat and place the ski on edge for a more automatic turn. WHAT I THINK YOU SHOULD DO AND WHAT I TRY TO DO: I need to preface this by pointing out that (as you all know) I am not the best slalom skier in the world or even close with my own application of technique. That having been said, here goes... Stacked: I try to approach the wakes as stacked as possible so that my body is aligned behind the rope. This creates efficient transfer of pressure from the rope and upper body down to the ski which in turn creates speed as the ski (by design) attempts to alleviate that pressure. Purposely MIS-Align in order to transition effectively: I try to "mis-align" my self behind the rope as I pass through the center of the wakes in order to "squirt" (hate that word, but it makes sense to me) the ski out to the apex of the turn. That may need further explanation. My thought is that the entire body is under pressure at its greatest when you reach the center of the wakes (because you are most directly behind the force that is pulling you). At that point, if your feet move slightly ahead of the "stack," this misalignment causes the ski and lower body to accelerate ahead of the rest of the body which (provided you maintain your upper body position relative to the boat and rope) will cause the ski to advance out onto a path that is increasingly wider than that of the handle as it swings up beside the boat. This is where that ski may ride flat for a moment but will very slowly and consistently roll out onto the turning edge, but without having immediate inside edge pressure as the centrifugal force will still maintain outbound energy out to the apex of the turn. I think it is important to point out that this movement probably does create the "Reverse C" as I have seen it in pictures of many skiers, but I am not sure that is our main goal. I also want to point out that (and this may be where I differ slightly from what a few of you think and in fact from what I used to think) this is only a slight movement. The pressure from the boat is what creates the majority of that "cast out". Our job is just to slide the feet or lower body ahead so the pressure does actually "squirt" the ski out. If we drive the ski ahead too much we will lose our footing and then inadvertently give up our position relative to the boat and start to ski down course into a loose line. This is they way I look at it and I believe the way I see quite a few people do it. It may not be the only effective way, but I'd say if you look at the physics of it, this is one of the most efficient ways to accomplish a great transition. Lastly, I just want to address the timing of it all. In this thread or a similar I seem to recall reading that the transition happens later as the line shortens as evidenced by watching great skiers at shorter lines. Rather than suggest that I know what any one else is doing in their approach, I would like to suggest two things as food for thought. First (and this was pointed out by someone else...maybe @Horton, the skier is traveling a great deal faster at shorter lines and therefore it may appear to all be accomplished slightly after the wakes, secondly, the shorter the line gets the more mistakes everyone makes...pros included. Again, just my two cents...and I may have left a few things out because somehow I got roped into going shopping on Black Friday, so I gotta go! Happy Thanksgiving.

Ballets, after I found out about this I agreed to let it play out. However, for those of you who weren't surprised, THANK YOU...although I question your judgement. For those of you who didn't believe it based on the assumption that I don't have the skills...well, I would say rude things but you might be right. Matt Brown did hit the nail on the head, though...I am super sexy. As for Horton, I wonder if his employer knows how much time he spends on this stuff. Parting thought, I plan to work my ass off this year to get deeper at 41. The Helix I am riding makes me feel that it is plausible to get deep at 41, but I have a lot of work to do on me. Enjoy your spring and I hope to see you guys somewhere this summer.".coaching at a new ski club in Dubai right now (it's called ISki) and if you are ever here, check it out.

Some cool comments here. @skijay, great stuff. For what it's worth I consider Terry's technique the best in the business. If he were taller, we'd be watching his world records continually raise the bar. I think the biggest thing is staying stack and using that potential energy @skijay refers to to rocket his ski out to the buoy line and onto a distinct turning edge rather than fighting the force that is pulling him. @tbl I believe that another wY to say (and execute what you are referring to regarding the leading arm, is that he is skiing throughor out against that arm when he catapults himself out to the buoy line by using that @SkiJay refers to. Having said all that he may (probably) thinks of it totally different than what we all see, but I think what we have all mentioned has merit in examining the value I his skills/movements. Just my thoughts... Hope everyone is still skiing (I took 6 freezing passes in white caps today...have to dock start and spin most of them because I am a baby when it comes to the cold).

Kevin, aka @deep11 you have really spelled this all out beautifully in my mind. The wording is different from what I always say (which is great because it is this kind of thing that helps me keep an open mind about how to deliver thoughts to others), but the idea is the same. I haven't always thought of it the way I described or the way you described. I spent many years trying too hard to manually create the edge change/transition, but the best thing I ever figured out with the help of several people's input to keep me guessing and testing was that the boat swings you out to the buoy line if you "stay behind the handle" and keep your connection balanced. Man, we are all geeks huh? Love it though!

Great topic. I thought I would throw my two cents in (like it or not...). First of all, I agree about the confusion on which arm and have always tried to explain it to students like this: Which arm are we talking about?!?-The old term for the LH to 2-4-6 and RH to 1-3-5 was based on theory 20 years ago. Back when I was told to keep my shoulder down to create power. This term SHOULD HAVE died 15 years ago when the thoughts changed. PORT, STBD, LEFT, RIGHT, LH to 2-4-6, are all god ideas, but isn't it simple enough to say "Leading Arm" and "Trailing Arm"? Heading to 2-4-6 which arm is trailing...quite simply the right arm. Now, relative to rotation, arm pressure, body orientation, I am including an excerpt from a recent article I put on my site. Not because it is the simple truth (because it is still only one man's opinion...MINE), but because it is easier than typing the whole thing over again. This was a part of an article that referred to all of this confusion and more and talked about not just following the latest trends and buzz words in skiing. I hope it at least spells out my thoughts. BTW, I have enjoyed reading this thread and reading all of the different ways to look at it. IT helps continually mold my perspective on it and hopefully helps me relate more to different skiers I work with. I particularly liked the phrase in the @TFIN article, "Skeletal Alignment" which I always describe is stacking your bones for structural strength versus using muscular strength when out of alignment. Cool stuff in my opinion. Also, as a quick note, if you maintain openess to the boat as you cross the centerline, the change in pressures as you cross that same centerline will cause the lower body to effectively "squirt" out from under you in the direction you are headed. You can basically use the pull of the boat to cause the transition. Here is the excerpt from the article: "Body Orientation (countered, closed, or face the tip of the ski?: While off the handle (from the beginning of the reach to the finish of the turn), this term should make sense relative to athletics and making an athletic direction change. In athletics, direction change (while maintaining speed) is accomplished by slightly countering away from the desired direction of travel such that the athlete’s body mass maintains pressure on the inside of the turn and therefore doesn’t create force in the wrong direction. While on the handle (swinging behind the boat), by aligning the spine of the athlete with the force acting on it (the boat), the athlete is best using his or her structural strength to harness the energy of the boat and most effectively transfer that energy to his or her ski. The catch is that there are two moments where these two phases overlap. As you finish the turn and as your transition out into your glide, it is very easy to get confused on where your body should face. The simple answer as you finish the turn is that as long as you don’t over-rotate your body through the turn, you will ski back into a position that is both “countered” relative to the ski and the turn, and also aligned with the pull coming form the pylon of the boat. Through the transition, I believe a good rule of thumb is that you can follow the attitude of the ski. By this I mean that as long the ski is still on the cutting edge, you will continue to face the pylon, but as the ski starts to move out into the glide and therefore onto the turning edge, you will begin to counter away from the turning edge of the ski very progressively to prepare for the next turn. Arm Pressure Much like the body orientation, pressure on each arm changes throughout the course. In its simplest form, it follows the same basic principles as body orientation. As you hook up to the handle at the finish of the turn, you will have more pressure on your leading arm, but as you approach the center of the wakes and, in essence, get closer to being directly behind the direction of the force from the boat, you will add more and more pressure to the trailing arm, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that you will be giving up any pressure on your leading arm. The net force on you from the boat (based on the direction your ski is pointed versus the direction the boat is heading) increases as you approach the center of the boat. The addition of pressure on the trailing arms is how you can resist the boat without getting into a position you can’t move out of. This also helps you keep your body aligned with the pylon/force that’s towing you. Now, as you cross the centerline, it is important to keep pressure on the trailing arm so that the lower body can effectively swing through to allow the skier to cast/swing out past the buoy line on an early efficient path. This is also where there is a lot of confusion because there is much current buzz that suggests that you should be heavy on the leading arm during the transition. The leading arm can not give up pressure through the transition or the skier will automatically get pulled down course. In order to continue outbound, the skier must attempt to continue to ski out against the leading arm which is where the concept of leading arm pressure comes from. This still can’t be interpreted as maintaining a lean on the leading arm, however THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE NEED TO STATICALLY LEAN ON THE LEADING ARM!!! There is a transfer of pressure even through the transition such that when the outside arm (previously referred to as leading arm) is released from the handle, there is no sudden loss of connection with the boat." If it is of any interest to you, you can find the entire article at http://www.sethstisher.com/2013/10/20/my-two-cents-on-some-of-the-water-ski-confusion/

Thanks for the plug @matthewbrown. @jroe it sounds like you are knocing at the door on 38. That's awesome. Cool sport when you can never be satisfied because we all constantly want that next buoy or that next pass. Keep charging at it. Would love to ski with you sometime.

I am of the opinion that there are specific physical principles that create the most efficient swing, path, etc. in slalom skiing, but the differences in how the athlete stands on the ski and executes these principles can differ drastically. I agree that this is the same in all sports as well. Take golf for example. Stand at a tee box of a pro golf event and watch 100 different swings that all ideally cause the club to strike the ball with maximum speed with the club face straight. I don't think that in coaching or training we need to ignore what we consider to be ideal or preferred efficient methods, but it is ok to deviate slightly to accommodate to different skiers with different athletic backgrounds, builds, skill-sets, goals, equipment, etc. I like some of the great comments on this thread. Pretty cool stuff. I hope you guys all had a great summer and are geared up for a great fall of waterski rides and football.

Thanks for throwing that comment and video in @WebDawg99. Although initially we were all taught to pull through both wakes, somewhere down the line someone later told us we were pulling too long. The answer is that both tips were right. We need to stay in a powerful position and maintain our connection through both wakes, but the ski needs to START to move out toward the ideal apex of the turn and consequently to the turning edge as we cross the centerline.

Thanks Shane. I agree. We started that program based on the fact that there are so many great options. The easiest way to get it started is to call or email Brian in the shop a d tell him what you want to start with. Sales@h2oproshop.com or 888.789.5404

Minor clarification in my wording, but same desired effect based on what I think you are saying @horton: I try to encourage people to keep the body more upright and facing slightly to the outside of the tip of the ski...then as you approach the buoy, the the hips AND the front knee need to maintain slight inbound pressure or pressure on the inside edge of the ski in order to "guide" the ski through the turn rather than forcing it through the turn. A ski on edge with a balanced stance from the skier will turn provided you don't rotate your upper body to the inside and stifle the carving action that is already in motion. If the transition into the offside turn isn't effective enough to cast the ski OUT onto the turning edge, then you will have to do more work to turn the ski. This I where we all make the major mistakes on our offside in my opinion. It's more than just getting early. Being early and having the ski stuck underneath you because of an anxious off side stance is the root cause of most offside turn issues. My 2 cents and sorry that it is a run-on paragraph of waterski babble...a direct result of early morning, pre-coffee, IPhone posts.

@horton. Huh?

@rico I wasn't saying that the idea of going through two buoys was difficult for spectators to understand. It's the fact that we find out (like the Masters) after an event is over that the outcome was actually different than perceived. And as far as an earlier start being an advantage with an adapted gate, think what you will, but at 39 and beyond (and maybe 38 too), it is impossible to stay wide enough to round the buoy for more than a split second and impossible to get wide enough without a counter-cut (what we now call the gate) to round the buoy. I'm open to ideas if you think there is a plausible idea for an "adapted gate". @horton Cut your hair and stop the bromance with @shaneh.

A couple of simple points in my opinion: Beginners benefit with an earlier gate or no gate requirement at all...thereby encouraging newbies to try tournament skiing as soon as they can get around some buoys. As it is now, they may learn to run the course, but the gates are a whole added challenge which discourages people from trying. Shortline is more difficult if you are too early because the gates are already the earliest wake crossing in the course. Therefore if you get good speed and direction yet you are early, you will apex too early for one ball. This really only applies at 38 and beyond. Waiting for video review simply sucks. Our sport is already too complex for the average joe to watch. Add in some skier getting his gate pulled and Joey Spectator is lost. My 2 cents.

Eric, Thanks for the feedback, but I didn't know there were skiers out there who didn't heat mold their liners. I have custom orthotics made (and get a new set about every year two years). The liners are heat molded of course as that is the point of using these over the in-line skate liners that are the original for some of the skate shells we all use and love. In this case, I don't believe the problem is whether or not they are molded. The liners are thicker than their predecessors and regardless of how much molding I do, the material has to go somewhere in the liner and therefore still creates too much volume. However, my others packed out even more over time and I am hoping these will do the same. In the end the thin ones may have been a bit too thin once they were used for a few years, so hopefully these will get better with age. Anyway, thanks guys. I hope everyone is having a great early season.

@ral I just retired those think liners two days ago. I have been band-aiding them with duct tape for ages. I now use an Intuition (thicker one of the same style) in the front and a thin Reflex for the liner on my rear foot in the R-Style. The front one is too thick, but I think it will pack out as I know the other one did.

Really enjoyed meeting you guys Dan. Hope you get on the right ski for the season and really do well. Can't wait to see Elias progress through the season as well. Thanks again for coming. Glad it was yesterday since it is almost blown out today.

Bring it on @DanE