Sethski

I agree with Al! Good stuff...none of it is black and white whether it is this topic or others. The ideas getting thrown around help us all grow at what we do. Fun stuff. I wish I had time to be on here more often.

Horton, sorry I took so long to post. Perfect explanation is as you said in my opinion...it is not black and white. I have three main points in my opinion 1-We are dynamic! And 2-The tips, articles, etc. don't handle this one because it is specific to each Skier's current situation. 3-Trends in all sports confuse the general public and get misconstrued over time, To explain my points: 1-DYNAMIC: We are moving around a central point (which is also moving down the lake at a high rate of speed). When moving around that central point, the forces on our bodies, the ski, and the rope constantly change. We have to be dynamic to move the ski through and out and ride it back in through the turn. Doesn't it make sense that there is no simple answer based on this. Personally, I try to increase my trailing arm pressure as I approach the center of the wakes because it ACTUALLY DOES help me keep my center of mass moving with the ski so that I don't approach the wakes with the ski already shoved too far out in front of me. None of this is to say that I don't have pressure on my leading arm. In fact I have a lot of pressure on my leading arm, but if I am not dynamic as I approach the center of the wakes, I will be stuck on the leading shoulder and my upper body will block my lower body from making an efficient transition. IMPORTANT NOTE (and often overlooked and misunderstood), I DO NOT GIVE UP PRESSURE ON MY LEADING ARM IN ORDER TO PUT PRESSURE ON MY TRAILING ARM...that would be a loss of power as the load from the boat is increasing. I add the trailing arm pressure for grater power overall. Additionally, the pressure should be close to equal at the centerline as I am now directly behind the force that is pulling me. As I transition out to the apex of the turn, I keep pressure on the trailing arm, but that pressure is exerted in a different way...as the ski moves out to the turning edge, I find it important to keep the handling moving with me, so I add some outbound pressure to the handle, but I am also simultaneously trying to ski through my leading arm (right arm going to 1-3-5) which keeps a great deal of pressure on the leading arm. However, at that point I (my personal approach) am not leaning super heavily on the leading arm because I then fear that when I release the handle I will suddenly be pulled to the inside. As stated before, this is my approach. Doesn't mean that it is 100% correct. I have purposely not listed the exact details of what I believe to be the magic percentage of arm pressure on each arm, etc. There is so much more to it than we can hash through on a message board (well, at least for me, because it is 80 and sunny here and I'd rather be outside). 2-SKIER SPECIFIC: In my opinion, you can't make a blanket statement of which arm should have the pressure at a specific point. At the point in our skiing where we begin to think about such detailed/advanced topics, we have established our own specific stance, our own style, etc. Tips related to back arm pressure, trailing arm pressure, leading arm pressure, etc. MUST BE SKIER SPECIFIC. Anyone who attempts to tell you exactly how to do this without watching you ski is a bit naive and perhaps even arrogant. Yes, I just said that. Waterski coaching is based on you! It is not always based wholly on ultimate ideals! We are humans and in a perfect world there may be a perfect way to do all of this, but since we aren't in that perfect world, the coaching needs to be skier specific. Skier A may be told they need to put pressure on the leading arm, and in the very next set, his friend Skier B may be told he needs pressure on his trailing arm (both from the same coach). IT MUST BE SKIER SPECIFIC! 3-THE TRENDS... I am currently writing an article (as usual, wrought with opinion) on the fallacies created through each new trend or hot idea in waterskiing (or sport in general). To my point, when a skier goes and skis with a coach that promotes a specific new technique, the ideas presented by that coach may be presented as very logical information and as it is passed on from the student to his local waterski disciples when he gets home, it is often misconstrued. My favorite is the way that I use dot meet new skiers who would prelude their ski set by telling me they were trying to ski WEst Coast Style and when I watched them ski, I realized that the only thing they were trying to do was squat down low. That is not a West Coast idea or anything that aids in the physics of slalom skiing. Does that mean that the ideas and principles of that trend/style of skiing were wrong? Hell no. Trends and new ideas are often created to address the most prevalent errors in waterskiing at that time. "Counter rotation" is another one that was/is misconstrued at times. The concept holds true today and held true 50 years ago before it had a name, but many people now "fake it" by swinging their outside shoulder back because this is what they came to understand it to mean. My point is, don't fall prey to taking the latest and greatest and make it the "NEW THEME OF YOUR SLALOM SKIING". Rather, take the new ideas and extrapolate the real meat of the information and decide how you can apply that to your skiing, but don't blindly decide you are going to now throw all of the load on your leading arm because you read an article by Nate that describes pressure on that leading arm. By the same token, if I write an article about trying to keep your shoulders SOMEWHAT level, don't go out and tell all of your buddies that you read an article that says your shoulders MUST be level through the wakes. Neither of these scenarios are wholly true. Just my two cents... By the way, I think there are some great points and discussions within this thread. The answer is probably that no single one of us or single idea is true. Use your brain, your experience, some coaching, some video, some of the ideas on this site, etc. and put it all together so you can still be you when you ski. Hope everyone is having a great spring...love this sport!

Pretty warm at Gordon's in MEX. But I guess that isn't what you were asking. Pretty warm back at Oz in Charleston as well.

Pretty warm at Gordon's in MEX. But I guess that isn't what you were asking. Pretty warm back at Oz in Charleston as well.

So, I think this is a tough thing to explain. I like what you have said Horton, but the problem is that sometimes the interpretation of this leads to people giving up power too soon. If you say it works, then there is no reason for any of us to argue. However, I think another good way to describe it is that you have to keep your upper body up and out of the way of your lower body so you can move the lower body slightly ahead somewhere near the centerline in order to have the ski accelerate outbound. The secret is to keep your body pressing through the back arm as you shoot the ski and lower body through and out to the flat water past the wake. If you give up power in an effort to do this, I believe you lose valuable speed and direction. Works great at your easier passes, but when the line gets short you will end up traveling on a path that is too narrow and too direct. However, maybe I am missing exactly hat you are saying. The Acapulco sun may be getting to me...have sympathy for me struggling through the days of skiing down here. Seth Stisher SethStisher.com

So, I think this is a tough thing to explain. I like what you have said Horton, but the problem is that sometimes the interpretation of this leads to people giving up power too soon. If you say it works, then there is no reason for any of us to argue. However, I think another good way to describe it is that you have to keep your upper body up and out of the way of your lower body so you can move the lower body slightly ahead somewhere near the centerline in order to have the ski accelerate outbound. The secret is to keep your body pressing through the back arm as you shoot the ski and lower body through and out to the flat water past the wake. If you give up power in an effort to do this, I believe you lose valuable speed and direction. Works great at your easier passes, but when the line gets short you will end up traveling on a path that is too narrow and too direct. However, maybe I am missing exactly hat you are saying. The Acapulco sun may be getting to me...have sympathy for me struggling through the days of skiing down here. Seth Stisher SethStisher.com

NTX, it is busy and it is hot and it doesn't pay well in cash. All correct, however the rest is up to the "opportunist" or lack thereof that gets the job (at least speaking for my place). One set is to be taken in the AM before any clients ski (and we don't start until 9 so that's easy). The other set is in a spot during the business day if we aren't full and after we are done if we are. However we finish at 3:30 so it isn't too bad. I often cycle 2 different people in and out as drivers although I am in there all day. Between a place to stay, free skiing, and better pay for my main person than you would get at most ski schools, it's rally a great opportunity. There are also some tips from clients, great business contacts, and great opportunity to build your resume in any way you choose since you are working for a small business. Also, with all I the people passing through you will undoubtedly make some friends that will last a lifetime. It's a great opportunity for sure (if you capitalize on it) not to mention the fact that we attempt to have fun all day everyday. All of that having been said, I definitely don't want anyone who is afraid of hard work, thinks that there are any jobs that are beneath them, or if he or she has trouble with follow through and taking responsibility. Don't know about other places, but that about sums it up at my place.

In case any one is looking or knows of someone looking, I am trying to find the right person for this season at my place in Charleston. I need someone with skiing experience and driving experience of course. They also need to have some decent waterski knowledge, however the main ingredient is that they are outgoing, personable, and hard working. Post here or email me at bookings@skiseth.com, or call me at 866.213.7993. I need someone to work from Mid-March through Mid-November ideally and I will also need some people that might have less availability to fill in here and there as well.

Phil is right, but I got an email notification on this one. I can send some inserts to you. As far as the reflex bond, that might be a better solution because there is no substance to a honeycomb ski. And for future reference for everyone, the only thing about stainless steel inserts that make tem better than screws is that you can ideally loosen screws and move boots then retighten without wearing out the drilled hole. Using a screw with a course thread will provide the same hold. The plastic/nylon block inserts that are molded into most slalom skis provides the strength and hold for the screws. Hope this helps. I will be glad to send you inserts if you still want them. If so, email sales@h2oproshop.com. Thanks.

In my opinion, you guys have an awesome points in this thread. I have read and learned many ways to look at things. I also think empirical data is a must and you are correct that our sport is truly behind where this is concerned. Just to speak to the video the guys posted of what I was trying to show them: 1-This was specific to what i had discussed with a couple of these skiers on the water. 2-It was understood that they would be videoing so it could be looked at later as well. 3-There was tons of followup on this information so it wasn't as if this was the only time we discussed. 4-With this little shop coaching sessions it definitely wouldn't stick. That's a given. This is a video of a basic concept relative to the question of "Why does pulling long pose a serious slalom problem?" 5-Many of the other points you guys made (especially ToddL) are awesome and make a great deal of sense in my humble opinion. The point I was trying to get across is that you must give your ski an opportunity to move outside of the handle path in order to gain maximum width and allow you to ultimately have maximum edge pressure at the apex of the turn. And based on the physically principles of swinging behind a central point, the center of the wakes seems to be the most efficient place on the arc, to try and transition such that the ski begins to "ski" out onto a wider path. The upper body still needs to "stay down" through this movement, because we need to maintain power to swing high on the boat with the handle and maximize space. The ski needs to be moving in some outbound manner to essentially slowly roll out on a path that will apex right at the buoy. I discussed body position behind the boat to merely point out how the way in which you stack your body has a great deal to do with how maintainable that position and power is as you move the lower body/ski through and out to a wider path. I hope this at least helps with what I was trying to say. Taelan28, I am pretty stoked for you that you have it all figured out. I only hope I can have the opportunity for you to coach me one day to perfection. You seem awesome! Seth Seth Stisher

Horton, thanks for calling me out. Seriously, my point is this, the transition from the cutting edge of the ski out to the apex of the turn is the most critical part of slalom skiing. That having been said, here is my 2 cents: -1st of all, it is nice to read all of the thoughts on what is going on because it gives me good perspective and opinion on what things might be happening that aren't even a part of my focus. You all have some great points about what you think is important and what you think is going on. -2nd of all, I am in no way perfect at what I am trying to do in this picture -3rd...to me this is not about where my body is facing and keeping my body pointed in the same direction as the ski even though Triplett points that out as being the big key. I personally never let that cross my mind. To the contrary I personally try to keep my body facing the high side of the ski (which is the edge of the ski that is not driving into the water). In this picture I am moving through the transition which is where the ski is moving from one edge to the other and simultaneously my body is transitioning from facing the left edge of the ski to facing the right edge of the ski as I attempt to cast the ski out to the turning edge. -4th. Whether I accomplish it or not, what I am trying to do is shoot the ski out from between me and the boat without giving up any power and therefore hopefully not giving up any direction. The real idea here is that as you ride the ski from the previous turn to the wakes the ski is ring pressurized by the pull of the boat. This pressure alleviates itself in the way of speed in the direction the ski is pointed. If I start to advance my lower body out from under my upper body without upsetting my upper body, the ski will continue outbound while casting out onto the turning edge. This means efficient path while also prepping itself for the next turn. I leaned some of this from Jamie B and my good fried Jason Hutchins in talks with them about building pressure on the ski and using that pressure (which I often refer to as stored energy) to cast the ski out to the buoy line. And as someone mentioned I you just get into a deep lean, you must give up your power in order to transition which will result in direction loss and loss of control as well as causing the skier to run an inefficient path. Thoughts?

Thanks for starting this thread @wish. I go twice a year for skin checks since I live in the boat day in and day out. My Mom had a pretty tough bout with Melanoma, but luckily is all good now. Good luck to everyone who is dealing with this stuff!

Some cool comments here. I kind of love it on any day...it's just a ton of fun, but I understand the idea that performance does affect enjoyment. Anyway, when testing gear, I personally believe you should definitely change the goals and the benchmark. Same thing on a windy day. Don't skip a set on a windy day, just understand that your scores might not be as high, but you can still have fun and kick some a--.

Can't do much about the handle pops, but I truly think the rope around the neck is a MUCH greater concern. At least that one can be helped with a shock tube...the shock tube really doesn't do anything for the handle pop...not much at least.

WLB, I think there is some good stuff here. Bruce, love the comments, and I also love what ShaneH and Than say about direction. I too believe that a little width is super important for the reasons Bruce said. Of course (as I really think Rich is suggesting) working past the wakes to try and get EXCESSIVE width is waste and runs the potential of really getting you out of rhythm. The goal in my mind is to maintain direction after the second wake in order to keep the line tight and take the most efficient path out to the apex of the turn. Also, when you maintain outbound direction with the speed you generate, you can get the ski to a wider point without having to travel as high up on the boat. Also speed, as Bruce mentions, will allow you to carve a smooth, continuous turn. My 2 cents...

Glock, Since I spend my days in the boat coaching, and since my Mom has had Melanoma and dealt with the issues like you, I try to take care of myself a bit as well. The biggest thing that has worked for me (like MarkChilcutt mentioned) is wearing a 24/7 hoodie or the new ones we have made by Eagle Sports to offer to our customers. Although a few days here and there in the spring I get some sun, once the season is rolling I try to live in a hoodie like this when I am in the boat...and I use the hood. As for Sunscreen, of course this is important, but I have also been told that there is no proof that sunscreen guards against Melanoma in any way. Staying out of the sun is really the only true answer from what my Mom's doctors have told us. All the things that Onside35 says are for sure killer. Anything we can do to stay out of the sun. The only problem is we need a little bit of sun for our bodies as well as we get Vitamin D from it...or it helps our body produce it.

As a new guy to the Big Dawg series, I appreciate what Chad said in his post (and we have had that discussion face to face). I understand the idea. In the end, I believe the Big Dawg is what it is regardless of what it was started for. The idea is to have the best 34 mph skiers in the world compete head to head to see who can win round after round. Andy Mapple would be a great addition to the series (as would Jeff Rodgers). There are a lot of competitors who would give him a run for his money and there are a lot of participants who would be stoked to ski side by side in an event with a man (AM) who has dominated our sport like no other athlete has dominated any other sport I know. Great for the Big Dawg Series, great for the sport, and in my opinion great for the competitors who might challenge him as well as those who would have the opportunity to ski alongside him. Perhaps there will soon be a 35 mph division and then an opportunity to compete on different levels, but for now, we have what we have. I know there probably weren't many skiers who found issue with it, and to be fair about it, those who don't like it are certainly entitled to their opinion and feelings toward the situation and I respect that. I personally hope that if Andy is able to compete, he does so, but knowing what a nice guy Andy is and knowing that he is 100% devoted to our sport, I doubt he would do anything to challenge skiers who feel that it isn't right. I guess there is no easy answer, but I sure hope that he skis the BD at some point. The whole idea is to compete and have fun. Anything more than that is BS. We ski because we love it, we ski tournaments because we have a competitive nature. That's it. Hope it all gets sorted. Also, Chad, I hope you do an event as you described. Let us know. Lastly, congrats to Dave Miller on his Big Dawg win in Peru and congrats to Todd Kuykendall for being on the podium after a rehabbing an injury from last fall.

Sorry, meant to say just the opposite, don't use handles where you CAN'T see the ropes that wraps around the handle. Most of the fraying on that part of the rope is from the ropes interaction with the grommets that the rope goes through as it passes through the handle...at least this way, you can see it. Sorry for the typoon the previous post...

@chuck dickey. Yeah, that's what I am saying. Again, "leading arm" being "back arm" (term coined ages ago is it was the arm Away from the boat). Trailing arm pressure indeed moves the COM into a better spot...more in the direction of travel. As far as BLOCKING, think of it this way. We know that our lower body has to move outbound through the transition in order for the ski to swing out beyond the handle path (which allows you to travel wider with the ski without having to carry the handle out wide as well...which decreases the distance you have to travel). That being said, when the back arm aka leading arm is down with a lot of pressure on it coming into the wakes, you basically have your leading shoulder in the way of your body such that you have to actual let up/give up power/stand up to open up a space large enough for your lower body to shoot through the transition and move outbound. We know that giving up power is undesirable as we in turn give up direction. Another way to look at it is if the average 6 foot tall person measures 5 feet tall from the ground to the top of the shoulder, and that same person drops their back arm/leading arm down low coming into the wakes they have made the space between the water and the top of the shoulder much less than 5 feet, we have then "blocked" the 5 feet of body from effectively moving through the transition. @horton does that make any sense or help? Check out this link for a series of old pictures we shot years ago working on this idea. The idea is that there is trailing arm pressure coming into the wakes (sorry, those pictures aren't all there), but as I move the ski through and out, back arm/leading arm pressure is maintained...but not down pressure...and therefore the line stays tight and the path stays efficient. Please bear in mind that I was working on this for the sake of the photos...on a normal basis I mess this up quite a bit. Here is the link: http://waterskitips.h2osmosis.com/?m=200803

First of all, Back Arm is what we called the arm that we were trying to hide from the boat back when we thought that was the way to do it. I personally still use that for the same arm which is the "leading arm" or right arm going through the gates. The trailing arm would then be the left arm. I thinks Brooks hit the nail on the head in discussing it. I believe the trailing arm is super-important to keep your hips accelerating in the direction you want to go. The back arm needs to be emphasized through the second wake, but I don't think that means you need to lean hard on it...just that you need to power outbound and move through it. If you lean hard on that back arm through the transition you run the risk of BLOCKING your lower body from being able to move through and outbound. However, it is important to actually move out in a way where you keep pressure on that trailing arm such that you are moving out and through that arm until you need to release. My two cents...

If you ride a goode or any ski that has a sharp edge, get the ML Carbon handles because they have rubber on the V. Also, don't use handles where you can see the rope that wraps around the handle, because you need to see if it frays. Also, if you need one restrung...here comes the shameless plug...click below: http://www.h2oproshop.com/reyofaha.html My two cents...

Cool topic for sure. I have to agree that being able to lift your heel is an advantage. Our bodies weren't made to stand with one foot in front of the other, therefore we need a way to be able to stand as naturally as possible. I personally use a Reflex RStyle with my own modification of A-a 1/4" block under my heel, B-a two-lace bungee that adds pressure to my ankle so that I get some resistance as my heel comes up. I still release easily when necessary. I believe the rear RStyle is better than using a rubber boot in the rear with a Reflex front. I personally believe it is a great balance between an RTP and a rear boot. I think us mortals need some security in our rear foot which Nate the Great may not need. In the end, try them all and see what works for you. My two cents...

By the way, the "why aren't you at Moomba, Marcus?" was an actual question, not a jab. Also, loved Terry's post...skiing because he loves it! A lot of amateur skiers could even have a little more of that attitude.

Off the subject could I just give props to @texas6 for the coolest profile pic on BOS? "you stay classy San Diego!"

Where are you located Phil? We sell them at our shop, but let me know where you are so I can let you know what's available. BTW, we don't really sell them to make any money...just to cover our cost to help people out on stuff like this.