MarcusBrown

+1 for @Schroed's comment.

stainless screws + brass inserts is the best combo stainless on stainless will seize up

Shane, you're an animal dude! Glad to hear you were able to "feel" something different....that's what its all about.

@Texas6 and others, you are exactly correct: hips and shoulders towards the boat through the initial outbound move WILL in fact limit your skis outbound direction,...at least initially. And that is precisely what you want. Who has never edge changed too quickly....or loaded too hard and been popped to the inside like a puppet through the transition?? I know I have...and I still do it. About 6 times per pass. So I know we've all done it.....and it feels like crap. Why? Because the quicker the edge change....the more we depend on our ski for our pre-turn and buoy approach. More simply put, the quicker the edge change, the less line tension we take into the buoy, and the less we ride the end of the handle outbound: result --> Saggy rope = shallower pre-turn = a whole mess of other problems that are "common". So, limiting the amount of "outbound" direction the ski takes through the transition is something that is not only a necessity for better and more efficient skiing...but its something that virtually every slalom skier needs to work on. Opening the core (think hips, & shoulders will follow: remember to never try to twist the spine) to the boat into the wakes generates the most efficient, low load speed possible. Speed creates the illusion of angle into the wakes. Continuing to open the core as you move through the transition is the most efficient way to trick the skier into achieving maximum outbound direction...by slowing the transition of the ski from inside edge to out....and cleaning up the reaching phase from 2 hands to 1. p.s. - everyones different. Different preferences, tastes, styles, habits, natural tendencies, base stances, etc.... But everyone, EVERYONE, has to follow the same physical laws. No escape. Just because I preach open hips/core, and counter rotation during the carves, doesn't mean there isn't another way to do it. More than anything else, folks need to realize that opening and counter rotating is theoretically the most efficient way (based on human anatomy) to get your body's COM moving in the right directions & at the right times to get the most out of the skiers energy input. However, there are no two styles the same. If you look to a guy like Mapple, who is still running 41' off, and see him closed off during the acceleration phase, and not super counter rotated at apex....the initial response is "he's doing something completely different." But that's the wrong response. At the fundamental level, he still has to deal with the loads from the boat, and still moves his COM to the right places at the right times. He just does it differently. But he's basically a God because he can do it a way most mortal skiers cannot. *Understanding why great skiers ski the way they do, at the basic level, is more valuable than trying to emulate them.

@Wish it is counterintuitive at first glance. But it really does make a lot of sense when you break it down...and its probably the simplest concept to understand. Just dont' know if I'd do it justice by explaining it all here...maybe soon I'll have enough time. Or maybe I'll put together a MarcusBrown.TV episode on the topic. @estrom you are correct. The nice thing about it, if executed properly, the counter rotation happens automatically as a result of the load on the trailing (reaching arm). The better a skier learns to keep a certain amount of tension on the line all the way out to apex....the load on the reaching arm will tend to 'un-wind' you as the rest of the body swings out away from that connection point. i.e. counter rotation shouldn't be an active 'move'...but rather a result of setting up the pre-turn properly.

@Horton Hips (and therefore shoulders) should attempt to stay facing the boat all the way until the point at which the skiers outside hand comes off the handle for the reach. Hips and shoulders should never be twisted outbound before the outside hand comes off.....

@Horton hips and shoulders facing the boat is the most efficient (easiest on the body) position. It helps untalented people like myself shift mass in the direction of travel from apex to wake ==> acceleration = speed = angle without load = outbound momentum into next buoy without getting pulled inside by the boat too soon. Nate moves his mass better than anyone else....that is a big part of why he is so good. When he leads with his head on 1,3,5, that indicates that he is actively leading with his mass through the apex of those turns. Which is why he keeps his speed up, and the load on the rope relatively light. p.s. - Lowering your hips (or COM) does NOT WORK!!! Its one of the biggest misconceptions in skiing. All it does is move your COM back. Moving back makes you slow, heavy on the rope and pissed at your boat driver for absolutely no reason at all. Don't do it! It will ruin your lower back and thats about it. Attempting to get hips as square to boat as possible, and lowering your COM are two completely independent moves. 1 works. 1 doesn't

http://www.mobilitywod.com/2012/05/torque-and-trunk-stability-part-1-how-to-stand.html

why not make the BD's ski 36 instead of 34....that would even the playing field a bit too

Greg Tate has been a great friend for years.....the comment was complete sarcasm

I have Terry by 0.5" max But what counts, head height? or Reach?...cuz his monkey arms give him at least 3-4 Inches over my reach. My clincher steals about another 2" at 2,4,6 He has squeaked the ski around 3 in more tourney's than I have though.... Also, Greg Tate needs lasik or something.....dude couldn't tell the difference between the entry gates and 1 ball....

@Razorskier1 Great shots, and not at all what I was expecting to see from your description. Let me first say that I think we are splitting hairs at times. Secondly, what we attempt to do on the water, and what we end up actually doing are almost always 2 different things. I totally hear what you are saying, and I can see where it would be beneficial. I'm not discounting the approach at all. But I am claiming it is less than ideal. If folks find that opening to the boat is putting them back, or causing their ass to drag, or anything of the like....they are doing it wrong. Square/open to the boat by itself is no magic bullet. It is just a requirement... Onside cut: hips facing ski tip, shoulders partially open (at about 45 deg) sounds like a concerted effort to twist the spine, in my opinion. Bad for the back....and less than ideal for being balanced on the ski. From the transition outbound, anytime the hips/shoulders/core attempts to twist away from the boat (towards the shore), the outbound direction will be compromised: Twisting outbound moves the rope tension to the leading side of your body, which turns your body into a huge roll of toilet paper that tends to get "unwound" back to the inside. By keeping the line tension at least centered through your body on the transition/outbound movement, there is no "Torque" on your body....allowing you to simply ride the end of the line outbound. Even better is a slight transition of the tension to the trailing arm (soon to be reaching arm), during the outbound move. Not saying its easy...but is the most effective/efficient, with the least adverse loading on the body Of course you will have to approach the two leans (onside vs offside) differently. But one thing I will say, from reading folks wording on this topic, is to be more conscious of the hips/core....instead of the shoulders. Letting your left shoulder come forward a little bit on the offside cut is one way to think about opening up a bit....but when we think in terms of "shoulder-centric" movements (shoulders as a frame of reference), often times we forget about the other body parts, and its easy for the hips/butt/ski to get left behind or lost in the movement. That's why I tend to use "hip-centric" language, to make sure I'm not only managing the hips, but also whats directly above them and below them. i.e., the hips are the center of the system, where the center of gravity is. What I tend to see with people who have a hard time utilizing the concept of "square" or "open" to the boat is either one of two things: 1. They cannot translate the idea into movement, or they cannot comprehend it in the manner it was presented. Either way, that is a coaching error, not a skier error. 2. They feel they have properly executed the movement, but it wasn't effective, nor was it the best freakin' thing they've ever felt in their lives. Either way, once again it is a coaching error (or self-coaching error), not an actual failure of the basic concept of square/open as the ideal anatomical position for acceleration & line control. No doubt, most people who are self or club taught, and haven't been to a great coach like Seth, Rini, Drew, Rossi, TWB, etc.. will drop their butt when squaring their shoulders. Butt back = weight back (and static) Weight back = high load, low acceleration (low angle) Weight forward = low load, high acceleration (and dynamic) The pros are mostly Open/Square to the boat because it works. Not because they've learned how to make a bad position work. Be Dynamic! MB

OPEN TO THE BOAT!!! N Skied against Fish for years....fierce competitor, great guy. But opening to the boat is the keystone to staying balanced. Facing the ski tip makes it harder to stay on the skis sweet spot. But please, never open to the boat by twisting your spine!!! Make sure your HIPS are facing the boat (or trying to face the boat, cuz we all know it's nearly impossible to be perfectly square), that way your spine is under no or little rotation. Twisting spine + load = bad. Watch west coast slalom DVD if you wanna learn how to ruin your back.

Stoked to see this healthy discussion on an all too misunderstood phase of the course. Than has a unique ability to take his analytical expertise and mold it into something functional and applicable. All you guys have a great grasp on this stuff. @Than_Bogan, you may recall I touched on this a while back in another post: "FYI, The Wilson Bros have kinda covered this exact topic from a couple of different angles already....so if you haven't read their stuff yet, you should do it now. Here's my take: Pretend a skier moving outbound off the wakes, is like a swinging rock at the end of a string. Its a simplified approximation, but it works fairly well for this. There are 2 things keeping the skier from escaping the course and ending up in the weeds, on shore, or wrapped around a tree.....1. the rope 2. the ski Most people, myself and brother included, allow our feet to move away from the handle/boat/pylon too quickly through the transition. Its natural...it happens automatically. This creates a situation where your ski is on a new carving edge too soon, with the unwanted effect of pushing you back towards the buoy, in a downcourse direction. Handle tension becomes less as the ski provides more "inside support". Ultimately the rope sags and the skier becomes disconnected & numb....only to be snapped back to attention at the end of the turn. The extreme opposite of this would be to continue on the cutting edge (or atleast flat ski) well beyond the wakes, all the way out to the buoy. Skier never hits shore...but is also never able to execute a carve. The Perfect place to be is somewhere in between: Initiate transition at centerline-ish. ONLY feet and ski begin to move. Then knees begin to move....all the while, the core and handle stay connected, body making no effort to rotate outbound. Matt Rini has a great approach to teaching this connected position. When the ski and knees have moved so far that they can't go anymore without taking the hips, then its time.... The hips begin to move outbound. It is at that moment that your body (Center of Gravity) transitions to the inside of the turning arc, and the ski begins to contribute to the carve. Line tension tends to drop quickly at this point. The sooner and harder the skier CG moves to the inside of the arc, the less line tension they will have, and the less "connected" they will feel. Finding that perfect balance is the key." Rossi & Nate execute this better than most. I think this fits right in with the "Do you think about Physics while skiing?" question. Should you think about physics while skiing? Absolutely not, unless you are a Cyborg or higher level functioning being. Its pretty much impossible to simultaneously perform to the best of your abilities while cognitively trying to focus on a mechanical or predetermined concept. In any sport. Should you work at developing a better understanding of the physics of movement, off the water? YES! It will only help you move better on the water = better peak performances, and less slumps (because you understand what is wrong, when it goes wrong). Do you need to substitute the word "Physics" with something like (how stuff works), to keep from melting down mentally?....that depends on who you are. If you have an aversion to physics, then probably substitute. Every single person reading this has developed a proficient understanding of Physics, through life experiences: walking, driving cars, riding bikes, rollerblading (if people still do that)....don't worry about the terms and phrases. A favorite quote of mine, by Richard Feynman, says it all: "I learned very early in life the difference between knowing the name of something, and knowing something"

Ed I'd like to hear about more angle with less speed. I've always thought that to be impossible but I am open to someone disproving my theory. Horton, which arm do you brush your teeth with? Answer that, and u shall have your answer as to which arm to pull with!

MobilityWOD.com search "low back pain" I repeat,...this will change your life, IF you are motivated enough to listen and DO what KStar says.

FYI, The Wilson Bros have kinda covered this exact topic from a couple of different angles already....so if you haven't read their stuff yet, you should do it now. Here's my take: Pretend a skier moving outbound off the wakes, is like a swinging rock at the end of a string. Its a simplified approximation, but it works fairly well for this. There are 2 things keeping the skier from escaping the course and ending up in the weeds, on shore, or wrapped around a tree.....1. the rope 2. the ski Most people, myself and brother included, allow our feet to move away from the handle/boat/pylon too quickly through the transition. Its natural...it happens automatically. This creates a situation where your ski is on a new carving edge too soon, with the unwanted effect of pushing you back towards the buoy, in a downcourse direction. Handle tension becomes less as the ski provides more "inside support". Ultimately the rope sags and the skier becomes disconnected & numb....only to be snapped back to attention at the end of the turn. The extreme opposite of this would be to continue on the cutting edge (or atleast flat ski) well beyond the wakes, all the way out to the buoy. Skier never hits shore...but is also never able to execute a carve. The Perfect place to be is somewhere in between: Initiate transition at centerline-ish. ONLY feet and ski begin to move. Then knees begin to move....all the while, the core and handle stay connected, body making no effort to rotate outbound. Matt Rini has a great approach to teaching this connected position. When the ski and knees have moved so far that they can't go anymore without taking the hips, then its time.... The hips begin to move outbound. It is at that moment that your body (Center of Gravity) transitions to the inside of the turning arc, and the ski begins to contribute to the carve. Line tension tends to drop quickly at this point. The sooner and harder the skier CG moves to the inside of the arc, the less line tension they will have, and the less "connected" they will feel. Finding that perfect balance is the key. MB

Chuck, I'll be heading down that way mid-april. Be stoked to come out and see you guys again.

Don't worry Horton....I'm going to change the name of my "Young Baller" section. Didn't mean to infringe...and actually didn't think about the similarity until you brought it up. Don't wanna step on anyone's toes. Thanks for the coverage! http://www.MarcusBrown.net

Dave, your analysis is top notch. The more math the better. Not sure how to teach skiers how to use force more efficiently, short of working with them in person, or at least in an interactive environment.

@Horton completely agree. You're welcome up here anytime. Happy Birthday dude...and a job well done with this BOS place you have provided for everyone in our community!

@Horton , the way you pretend to not understand or comprehend 99% of this stuff doesn't fool me. That's a compliment to you. And as OB said, this topic seems to do round and round...cool thing is each time it goes around it looks a little bit different. Anything we humans can put into words or equations is just an approximation of reality...of whats actually happening. At the end of the dissertation, when its time to go ski, I believe very strongly that the more theory and mechanics (correct theory and mechanics) you understand, the higher you're potential on the water....and the more you will ENJOY the ride. That doesn't mean that everyone has the ability to "think" intelligently off the water, and then suddenly shut all that off and simply "ski/feel/react" when they are on the water....but I think that is the goal. Ultimate understanding off the water....ultimate athleticism on the water. I've said it a million times and I'll say it 1 more....knowing where to be in the course at a given point is great...but even more fundamental is the principle of efficient movement and how to use all forces properly: Gravity, force from the water on your ski/feet (and how you direct that force thru your body), force from the rope on your hands (and how you direct that force thru your body). If you can't get your body to do what it needs to do to get you to where you know you need to be.....then it doesn't matter whether you understand ideal ski paths or not. And if you don't understand how to move with your body in the first place, then you sure as heck are very unlikely to get your body to do what it "needs" to do to get you to were you know (or think) you need to be in the course. Bonus tongue twister points if you can read that last little bit out loud

If you care at all about taking care of your body, staying healthy, skiing, walking, living & enjoying as many years as possible....you should probably make a habit of checking this out: http://www.mobilitywod.com/ If you're looking for anything specific, or have a specific bodily issue...you can search for vids/info on that topic. It'll change your life... MB

Horton and I have the same barber

Ski2Heaven sounds an awful lot like R Marking. Same old cloudy thinking, just with a new name. You can't hide behind different "style's", "experiences" or "physiological builds" and think you're going to fool physics. However warm and cozy all that may sound....the real world still waits for us when we put our ski on and pull outside the wakes each time. If you want to be efficient, light on the rope, fast, etc....you have to use your ski efficiently: aka, accelerate by moving over your front foot. If you want to see how great pulling up with your front foot works for efficiency, try it at the end of the lake when you're dropping and see how much spray you get in the face. Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world because he moves his center of mass more than anyone else....and his legs are able to keep up. Our "Usain Bolt" does pretty much the same thing...only on water, and its why he can run more balls than the rest of us: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6kqh0kY6V4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC7629F2F254C2590