gator1

@BraceMaker‌ Very perceptive. In a perfect crushing OTF, there is no forward compression. However, in a slightly less than perfect crushing OTF, there is. And the less perfect, the more compression. This means that OB4 has an advantage over Reflex in less than perfect OTF. The perfection required- dead nuts centered COM, dead nuts downward load over ankle-to hurt you is more perfect in an OB4 than that required to hurt you in a Reflex. So your odds are better in a OB4. Additionally, on the two feet in world, the levers on the gatormod pry the plate forward and up at the same time, so they also work with the natural compression of the front pin to increase your odds.

@gregy‌ BSME at Uof I Champaign/Urbana. We got to do all kinds of weird stuff. @mmosley899‌: How would your design release in a perfect crushing OTF as I laid it out for Than? If it would, I'd buy one today.

@mmosley899‌ : ".......with the combination of torque and heel lift...." But that is the point of all this internet rambling. In a crushing OTF, there is no heel lift. While there is torque in the right direction to cause your binding to release at the front heel, the g-force crushing the heel to the ski is in the opposite direction. And, the g force crushing the heel down on the ski is greater than the heel lift caused by the torque created by the strength of the Achilles. The result in no heel lift force. Your binding (one of the best) only senses net heel lifting FORCE. It does not sense bending moment on the ankle, or load on the Achilles, or the angle the ankle joint is being forced into. Since it does not sense these inputs it cannot respond when one of these variables exceeds the strength of the joint or tendon or ligament. You could set your release tension to 0 and it would not release in a perfect crushing OTF. How often your customers will face a perfect crushing OTF is a different question. The one time I did in 40 years of skiing was more than enough.

@Horton‌ my vote : leave it alone. Go change a diaper.

Don't let her ski till she begs to do it. Make her quit before she's tired. Only let her ski on warm days in warm water until she is hooked good. Remember, for girls, the gear has to match. Be the house, and dock, where the kids hang out. Make sure she sees the joy, not just the missed ball. After that, all you can do is hope she inherited the defective gene. If its not there, its just not there, and that is just fine too.

@gregy‌ : Rem acu tetigisti.

@gregy‌ You could be right. But, statics, dynamics, and beam loading theory would suggest that bend between the two boots, and the smile under the front of the front boot, is caused by a point load centered under the heel of the front boot, and a lifting force centered under the ankle of the rear foot. If the rear ankle was under a significant moment (experiencing significant torque) with not much lifting the smile would not be in the plate at the toe of the front boot. Additionally, I don't think that the rear ankle could exert enough torque via Achilles and Peroneal tendon to bend the bar. I did some experiments with cadaver lower legs back in eng school, we bolted the foot to a base and measured torque until we heard tendons ligaments ripping and measured sharp increase in displacement, indicating catastrophic failure. I've never tested an HO to yeild point, but my opinion is torque from the ankle couldn't do it. Tension, ie the foot pulling up on the rear plate as madpuppy pivoted over the front foot, seems like a more possible answer. And the joint can take quite a bit of tension. And if that is the case, his rear ankle wasn't in much danger, plate bend or not. But, no disrespect to your opinion, I can't prove mine.

@maddog‌ great pic. think how hard that front foot was planted, how far both knees were jammed forward, and how hard your son's back foot was pulling up on the heel of the front foot AFTER the binding released to bend that thing. Without the bar/plate helping to pry his front heel off the ski he'd probably have done even more damage Makes me a little sick to my stomach to look at it. Like my damn x-rays and the video of my buddy screwing my tendon back onto the top of my heel.

@MattP remember what happened last time I tried to upload video? :.) Awhile back I started to make a video of the mod, then realized I was tired of trying to evangelize it to people and quit. But guys keep getting hurt so I start posting again. I'm kind of waiting on @OB to finish testing before I get reinvigorated. But if you want a video I'll make one tonight and send it to you.

@Than_Bogan‌ Well, hell, just call up OB4 and tell them you want the OB4-M model.

@Than_Bogan‌ The stiff pre-curved tongue on the Stealth works exactly as you want your piston to work. Lets say you wanted to buy an OB4 and crush-proof it. Add the Stealth tongue to your front boot. It attaches to the toe of your boot just as it does on the stealth. It is curved away from your shin such that it only contacts your shin when your ankle is getting close to overflexing, and it is a VERY stiff tongue. That tongue replaces your piston in providing the torque as the knee keeps bending. The strap that goes around the center of the tongue, which holds it tight to the "crotch" of your ankle, is attached to a lever at the back of the OB4 plate. When your ankle overflexs, the tongue hits your shin. Strap goes tight. Pulls on lever. Lever defeats OB4 release. Knee keeps crushing down. Strap pulls lever farther, now only has to overcome g force to lift your heel. So you don't break your shin. Bingo, it works just like a gatormod, only on single plate, not double. In fact, that is what is included in the patent. Then, since you are a smart guy and don't want one-foot-out-one-foot-in torsional fractures in twisting falls, you pin one side of OB4 center crossbar, and radius slot the other side. If one foot releases, the crossbar swings away from the remaining foot, and its release force goes to 0.

@gregy‌ Yes, the patent anticipates such an embodiment.

@Than_Bogan‌ I read your post again, Yes, you would need a stiffer plate so that the mod can lever the front foot off the ski via the plate. Fogman/stealth is a lot stiffer than HO. The mod @ob is testing is also very stiff after it lets the Velcro plate flex a little with the ski.

@Than_Bogan‌ Push your chair back from your desk (Im doing this as I type, kind of). Stand up. Put your feet heel to toe on the ground as if they were in your ski. Put most your weight on your front foot. Grab hold of the desk for balance. Now, squat, keeping your weight over the heel of your front foot. Keep squatting further until your front Achilles is stretched and stressed. Now, imagine in that exact position, COM over heel of front foot, Achilles stretched like a bowstring, another Than Bogan jumped on your shoulders. BAM. Your hips drop straight down. Your front knee is already past 90 degrees and therefore your front quad has very little power left to resist the weight of Than2, and your Achilles and calf does not have the power to lever your front heel off the ground. Your front knee bends more, your hips keep dropping straight down, and ping, your Achilles pops. Your hips keep dropping straight down, the ankle joint runs out of movement, and crunch, your peroneal tendon dislocates and pulls up over the ankle bone. Your hips keep dropping, and the entire ankle joint dislocates, and grinds all the carteledge off the internal joint. Finally, the bones at the front of the joint meet, compact, and crush. Throughout this scenario, there is no net upward force on the front heel that could trigger a release from any binding system. You are going to need your Achilles repaired, they are going to have to use a dremel tool to recut the groove for your peroneal to run in under the outside ankle bone, you'll need a plate and some screws to rebuild the bone that got crushed, and you'll need bi-annual injections of synthetic lube to replace the cartiledge that got scraped off inside the joint. When the lube quits working after 4 or 5 years, they'll fuse your ankle joint so it only moves in plane with your leg. I read your post over a number of times, but I'm not sure the above scenario answers exactly what you are asking. If I missed the point, please give it another shot with different wording. The conditions have to be "perfect" for the true crushing OTF to happen: COM over front heel, COM over ski, g-force directly perpendicular to ski, skier already squatting. But they ARE perfect too many times, and the older you get the less perfection is required to overcome aging muscles and inelastic tendons. @gregy‌ The mod forces the plate to release from the pin at the rear of the binding, but it also lifts the plate if your front knee keeps bending and your hips keep dropping. Its designed to never let your ankle bend past the Achilles breaking point.

@maddog‌ As a fellow ankle injury victim, 2 years in and still rehabbing, sorry for your son. It SUCKS. But, he has provided us with some key data. He had a crushing OTF skipping over the ball. His binding released, but still trashed his ankle. So far, old story, repeated almost weekly here on BOS. BUT. His binding system released, and he bent the bar under his boots. This means that his front foot was planted so hard that even after the rear of the HO system released, his front foot stayed on the ski with so much force that his rear foot BENT THE BAR TRYING TO LIFT the front . Big strong kid has given us the critical piece of data to analyze the fall. Us old guys just rip our foot up, but aren't strong enough to leave evidence. What planted his front foot so hard? G forces of the ski decelerating crushed him down over his front foot. A release CANNOT save you in this situation. You can be standing on the ski in a tennis shoe, and once the perfect storm crushing OTF g forces are crushing you on your front foot, you are going to mash your ankle. Nothing, no matter how good it is, that RELEASES, will save you in this rare perfect storm fall. You need something that EJECTS you off the ski. You need a plate strong enough to pry your front foot off the ski, acting as your adjunct Achilles, and you need something to lift that plate. That's what gatormod does. BTW, I believe this rear-foot-trying-to-help-front-foot is what happens to all the Velcro on plate guys who get hurt, but we can't prove it since the plate is flexible and leaves no evidence after it bends during the fall.. And, @maddog‌, please examine your statement "comfortable in them". That is almost word for word what my buddy said when sticking with his bindings he'd used for years. He ruptured his Achilles after 5 yrs in them, last Sept. Listen to @Its_Fun‌. At least get some OB4s or Stradas. They'll narrow the window in which you can get hurt.

Hell@wish. That ain't nothin. In high school, I put 351 from a Torino in my dads CC. Didn't know CC ran the motor backwards.

Uncle Butch (Bruce Kunde) was in there a couple of years ago.

@Rico226‌: Buddy. Gatormod would have saved you in your Fogmans, and will again if you want to go back to them. I invented it after I had the same type injury that resulted in peroneal and ruptured Achilles. Two surgeries. I also tried Reflex. Can't ski in the damn thing.

I really want a third option to vote. Somebody said: "practice doesn't make perfect, but it often makes permanent". If all you are doing is grooving incorrect technique at 15 and 22, you'll never get any better by running tons of passes at that length. You just get your bad habits ingrained in your muscle memory. You'll get in skiing shape, which may pick you up a few balls. But you'll never make a breakthrough. So I don't vote for that. On the other hand, if you just crash and burn repeatedly at 28 without identifying needed technique changes, then beating your head against yellow isn't going to help you get more balls. So I don't vote for that. My vote is: Using video, coaching, prayer, meditation, mathematical analysis, tarot cards, identify the key technique change you need to make to run 28. Practice that enough (either at 22 or slow 28) to convince yourself you have implemented it. Then try real 28, enough times to evaluate the success of your technique change. Evaluate. Did you really make the change? If no, back to 22 or slow 28. If yes, what is the next key technique change? Rinse and repeat.

@Colebrah‌ Thanks! very cool. My Heli got conscripted to go dry cherries so we were in a hold mode. Shape is basically the same between 28 and 38: Two straight lines with a hook at the end. Easier to see at 38. From hookup to a little past the whitewater at about 40 degrees (acceleration), then sharp 15 degree turn, then straight line while coasting to turn. Basic difference between 28 and 38 is angle of the acceleration line and angle of the coasting line, and sharpness of turn at ball. amazing what perspectives show. Bears no resemblance to any pendulum. And, therefore, I submit to the BOS intelligensia, pendulum physics as a mathematical model to discuss speeds and accel is a waste of time. I'm mesmerized by straightness of those two lines. Just like that recent video of AM gates from the side perspective. Makes it very easy to model speeds from a visual. BT dubs, nice pass brah.

@SkiKolb‌ We learned to spend a few hundred bucks on getting it detailed and maybe a few more hunny on some upholstery repairs. But, we always change the oil. Best deals going are high hour engines in late model boats. These aren't cars. Engine, tranny, steering cable, strut bearing. The rest doesn't move and doesn't wear out. Find a good independent mechanic, he'll get a kick out of working on something he can pull the engine out of in 20 minutes. Valve job, bore, turn crank, maybe a cam. Doesn't matter if they changed the oil. This thread is getting fun. Almost......an independent boat test. Unless there is a reputable rebuttal, it would seem CP is quite a bit harder to drive then 200. But the wakes are comparable. And new to new price is less for CP. But resale is tougher on CP. I have no dog in this hunt. Won't ever buy a new boat. By the time I do buy a boat (if I ever do that again), common knowledge has sorted this out. But its fun to watch the internets and the googles speed the process up.

@Dusty‌ , two sets in a row, we're only two balls away from the stateline. Damn, I can almost smell the desperation and stale beer in the carpet. Can't wait for our boy to get it done and get me back to the home of my youth.

Shin guards and a half a mark on an adjustment with less than a full mark repeatability, and plastic shims, and "don't fall, they work better that way". Jeebus. You guys should have tried a gatorm...........ah, ta hell with it. Good luck and God bless.

After what seems like two lifetimes doing battle with floating courses, rivers, Wally's (, and one dead body) I'd strongly recommend a sleeve patch almost the whole length of the gate pipe. Much stronger than original.

Anytime @Sethro‌