One handed “Marcus� Gate.

[Horton]

One handed “Marcus” Gate.I was totally against learning this thing for a long time because I had seen others struggle with it. Turns out I was wrong, it is not all that hard to learn. To me the hardest part is finding the correct intensity and length of pull on the way out.  As for intensity I am now going nearly 100 % on the way out. (drop the bomb a second after the 55s!)As for length of pull I am keeping my eyes on 2 / 4 / 6  half the way out and then spotting the gates. Comments? Ideas?

[tsixam]

It would be very interesting to know what an Eric Lee gate looks like. And to be honest I don´t know what a Marcus gate or a Terry style is either. Is there a video some where?

Tsixam

[eleeski]

The Eric Lee gate only works for RFF skiers. You lefties have to play games with your gates, sorry. I pull out just before the 55's and line up with 2, 4, 6. Next I softly switch edges and target the right hand gate ball. I wait late so I'll barely make the right gate and commit as hard as possible. My focus can now completely shift through the gates to the 1 ball turn. It doesn't take long to initiate the turn in and it's easy for the RFF skier to get great angle. I have problems overpulling sometimes so I will start narrower! to correct that. I might line up a bit wider for a headwind or left crosswind.

I have never missed my gates in a tournament.

Eric

[Horton]

What is a Marcus Gate? New School/ MikeSuyderhoud/ WestCoast/ One handed gate. Yea know ski to the 55s, crank leftthen sweep the ski left and go for one without a hitch. This is not really a goodexplanation but I assume that you now know what I am talking about.

 

TheTerry Gate is more like a traditional gate in the fact that he rides flat tothe turn in but he still goes out late and carries a lot of speed to the turnin.

TheEric gate causes this:

http://ballofspray.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=lastcom&cat=9&pos=13#nav_pic

 

 

[Horton]

Back on topic . . .

Dawg . . . anybody . . . any ideas about the outbound? 

[tsixam]

Thanks.

 Yes I know what you are talking about I just didn´t know the different names for them, and the outcome from the Lee-gate I can acheive with any style..

Tsixam

[auskier]

i saw this pic on cottonwoods site. take it that it was from this years ski tests. one of the best pullout pics ive seen.

http://www.lakesatcottonwood.com/Carly_4.jpg

[skidawg]

Carly executes the one-handed gate to perfection!  out bound direction should be high intensity (bend the ski) short duration with a quick release moving the feet through outward.

[Director Darwin]

I've been playing around w/ the help of skidawg.  Still not 100% comfortable with it.  I'm not sure if I'm compressed enough of a skier to do it properly.  If I can't work it out within the next week, I'll put it off until fall and begin again. 

[Old MS Accout]

Watch Rossi and Natilie on the edged in water DVD. Carly is also the master. It would be nice to watch these guys over and over and then do it. I just try to vision the smoothness they have and try to do the same thing.  

[Horton]

Compressed? Why do you want to be compressed? Screw Compressed. I was asking for advise but I can tell you that a screwed up Marcus gate is better then a average old school gate. 

Stand up, go late enough so there is no flat spot in your arc and try to stay on your front foot.

 

[Horton]

Dawg,

Where do you look on the way out? I have the when to go out but I struggle with how long the lean out should be. 

Where are you looking on the way out?

How hard do you try to go on the way out? Do you agree with go pretty hard and all at once?

[Old MS Accout]

I like what the dawg does. He looks like he almost overexagerates the handle out front. Almost like he is punching someone in the face. I think the counter really helps get the ski moving to the gates. I try to do what he does, but I always end up with to much speed. I need to get off it quicker.   

[skidawg]

compressed is totally wrong JD, that makes you fall back on the tail of your ski sacrificing width.  U have to stand up!  start the gate by countering, then fall out, then intense but short load (fall first to get the ski moving without load)  I look down the lake on the pull out.  I look down the lake on the release (foot movement out) and I look down the lake on the turn in. On the stiff F1 I have to go pretty hard to get it to bend, so depending on what you are riding your intensity level will differ (but slightly-still needs to be intense) I do agree to go hard and all at once.  when you release and move ur feet you have to move your right hip in front to get the ski to initiate the carve for the turn in .  then just ride the carve and load late.

[ktm300]

I have not been taught all the histrionics of Marcus' gate.  All that loading and twisting seems unneccesary.  If you watched Marcus'  West Coast Video, I am sure that you saw that the strain gauge indicated 700 lbs right off the ball letting up to 400 behind the boat.  And this is easier skiing?  Although he is a leftie, check out Wim Decree video at Schnitz site Skiers bios Decree.  No histrionics just great efficiency that moves him up on the boat.  There is a lot of early energy in it but it is energy focused more on moving up course than outbound.  Outbound creates more load.  I want to be free at the top of the arc so that I can establish my angle before the boat picks me up.  If I go outbound instead of upcourse, this is more difficult to do as I have a load unload situation going on.  A good righty to watch is Rossi.  It looks like he is not doing much on the way out but, he is very efficiently putting the energy into ski and upcourse not so much outbound.  It is easier, requires less body motion, lets you be free at the top and is simpler.  Simpler is easier to repeat with consistency.  I am not knocking Marcus.  He has always been gracious in sharing his ideas and is an innovator.  However, I have seen an easier way to do it.  DeCree is a low key guy that has probably never bragged about anything in his whole life.  If you want to see efficiency, he is the man.  Ask a pro who saw him ski at Okeeheelee tourney this spring who had the best 39 of that tourney.

[skidawg]

The really great thing about slalom is:  There are many different means to approach the same end.  Marcus, JB, Rossi, Andy, Parrish, TW all look somewhat different when they ski, but they all move their mass similiarly.  You don't have to twist and contort to move your mass and ride the ski in the proper fashion,  Marcus has perfected his technique to the degree that many can't match.  This doesn't mean the theorys he or some of the other skiers use won't work to reach the same end.

[ktm300]

Yeah, I agree and Marcus is a great skier and gets major credit for introducing some really helpful ideas.  Maybe I am too old  and stiff to do it but, all that twisting and loading is tough.  Marcus' message about movement does seem to get lost, for some, in watching his style.  I just wanted to offer up some examples of extreme efficiency of movement that do not require all the twisting and loading. 

[Director Darwin]

Yeah - old and stiff - that's what I meant by "compressed".   Gotta work on flexibility.   JTH, I don't "look" anywhere but at the back of boat during the pull out phase.  It is so hard and short that visuals don't work for me.  I load the ski, swing the handle in front of me and then release.  All of these steps occur in what seems a simultaneous fashion.   One thing that skidawg has emphasized w/ me is not to bend my knees when initiating the pull out - just lean over to the left.  This keeps me from falling back on the ski. 

 Again, it takes some time to perfect.  I would disagree that a "screwed up Marcus gate" is better than the traditional method.  There are still plenty of great skiers utilizing the two handed gate.  No one approach is universally good for all.

 

[Old MS Accout]

I think Wim is much like Chet and David Miller. They are just mega efficent and every move looks so fluid. You can tell that those 3 have spent some time on the water together.   

[Horton]

As for length of pull I am keeping my eyes on 2 / 4 / 6  half the way out and then spotting the gates. I talked to the D A W G and he said this is all wrong.

DAWG said "start the gate by countering, then fall out, then intense but short load (fall first to get the ski moving without load)  I look down the lake on the pull out."

I tried it last night and wow is that better.

Thanks Dawg.

[Old MS Accout]

I like it till 38. I am bringing to much zaz. I think it will work, but I need to get off it sooner. I need some warm water and air. Flippen 80 billion mph out of the south for 5 days.     

[Horton]

MS,

I do not know what you are talking about. We have 80°air and 75° water at SkiWest. What is the issue.

I feel like this gate thing does not really help till 38 and then it rips. I am cosistantly getting good one balls and feel that I am going to not only run it soon but run it easy. (time will tell)

[Old MS Accout]

Minnesota springs suck for wind. I have been working on dawgs gate since I saw him blow out at 1 ball on the first ride of the 06 tests. But really, I have been trying to copy it since then, but I guess it makes more sense now that he explained it. I will work on it all week and see what happens.    

[Horton]

Holy Crap look at the poll! I guess the readers here are really high end.

[tsixam]

Ok, the one hand gate seems to be ruling. Two others and myself are still using the two handed gate. What is the biggest advantage using the one hand gate? I would like to know why it would be worth the time I have to spend to master it?

 

Tsixam

[Old MS Accout]

I think if this poll is taken in 2004, it looks 100% backwards. I did not know many 1 handers in 04, but now it is the only thing taught unless you go to Lucky.

[HO 410]

I see the the release, in the one-handed gate, as a tool to eliminate coasting on a flat ski.

 For all intents and purposes Wil Asher does a one-handed gate, he just holds on with two hands, or at least that was the point that Trent Finlayson was trying to make in his article. The most important thing in his gate is to maintain speed and carve right back in. If he coasts he gives back the energy that he spent to pull out, why do that? It is the antithesis of what all this new-school stuff is about: efficiency.

Also think about the skis used. They abhor riding flat, they don't really do it at all. If riding straight down the lake, and a gentle edge is not applied, the ski will bounce from edge to edge. That bouncing does not always follow a strict rhythm and could, if mistimed, make you late for the gate or dump you off the ski all together.  

 

[Old MS Accout]

At a 3 round record this weekend we had Thomas Moore, Trent F and Ian Trapp skiing on the Radar.

I shot some great video of the OM. Thomas Moore has a picture perfect gate. It is on the line with how the Dawg does his gate. If I can figure out how to get it on a disk, I will put it up. Otherwise you have to wait to see me.

Thomas Moore, Wim Decree and Susi all ran 2@41. Better scores then the masters.       

[skidawg]

TMo's gate is much better than mine, promise that!  Did Susi run 39 sunday (scot told me his best was 5 @ 39)

[Old MS Accout]

My bad, I dont think he ran it. I have it all on film from the boat. 3 rounds of OM and Tyler.

[skidawg]

That would be some good stuff to see, rip a copy for me!

[Old MS Accout]

I have it on one of those 8mm tapes. I will figure out how to get it on a disk and get it to ya. It will be great to kill some time next winter.   

[Old MS Accout]

It was Trent who ran the other 39 and got 2@41. Trent, Moore and Decree all got 2@41. Those are better then the scores out of Pine Mountian,GA.  

[skidawg]

Better conditions equals better scores!

[Old MS Accout]

I would call them ultimite conditions. I love that place.

[Old MS Accout]

Every since this discussion took place, my gates suck. I have lost my before the wake/gate ball intensity. If I try to be intense, I go right past 1 ball and splash. If I ease up and relax, I cant get around it. I think I am going to quit reading this stuff until Dec.

Skidawg,

I may have to come down and have you slap me around a bit.

[Horton]

Are you talking about intesity before the wakes going to the gate? Right or wrong I am trying to carry my speed out and around so I really try not to get on the line more then what just happens. Errr in English . . . I am trying to not get on the line at all though the wakes

[Old MS Accout]

I pull out from the wakes, I do a 1 Mississippi count and take off. From my one handed release to the wakes/gate balls I am trying to create more angle so that I can carry a bit wider. What I do not want is a bunch of speed with it. I was doing great last fall and early spring, but I lost it. I need to get myself on film and see what I look like. I feel fine at 32/35 but at 38, I am starting to pick up slack after ball one upon hook up with the handle. I was watching so much film of other skiers that I forgot how I look myself. If I dont come out of 1 ball tight lined, I can still run it, but I struggle all the way. I need to get it figured out before I start getting elbow problems. Somthing tells me I have a whole weekend of Gate/one ball practice ahead of me.

[Horton]

"I do a 1 Mississippi count and take off." What? Do you mean you are timeing your time on out edge? Time at wide? What? For me I try to just keep increasing angle without really streaching the rope.

 

Dawg . . . have a comment?

[merlin]

MS.....first off I would say that everyone wants to try and create more angle and ski wider, but these are general results that stem from a  few specific actions.  The purpose of the one-handed gate is to simultaneously allow the ski to arc outside of the buoy line while letting the body move inside the bouy line.  Regardless of whether you count "1 mississippi" or "5 alligators" if you have not accomplished this task, it will all be to no avail.  If you have succeeded, the ski will begin to move back inside the buoy line in order to catch up with your body in order to prevent you from falling on your face...the more open you are to the boat with your shoulders, the quicker the acceleration, the earlier the edge change, the easier it is to mantain body position while on the other edge.  Most people who attempt the one handed gate rotate their shoulders towards the wakes at the start, rock back on their ski, and attempt a tug of war all the way through both wakes never encountering an acceleration faze....a slow cut means a longer cut with less angle and a great load past the second wake with a tendency to get pulled to the inside.  MS, you sound like a great skier and I hope you get some use out of these pointers.  We all (Marcus Brown and Terry Winter) ski together over here in California with Mike Suyderhoud so I guess you could say we've gone through a lot of trial and error but have also succeeded a great deal with our West Coast principles which seems to be greatly misunderstood.  Thomas Moore's gate is near picutre perfect and is exactly what we would classify as West Coast, but he neither twists or loads or gets in a distorded position.  I worked with him on these principles back in 2000 when he was 15 and he picked it up solidly in one week.  So basically if you want to simplify the gate turn   1)get free of the boat  2)open up shoulders in the turn  3)create accleration by leaning in the direction of travel vs. tugging on the boat 4) early edge change but no change in body position as you ride the line out!!  

 Matthew Brown   

 

[skidawg]

MS,

look at your pull out and release and turn in, that is where it all begins, done properly=great gate and 1, done poorly=just what you are describing. 

[Old MS Accout]

I watched the footage of T Mo over and over agian this weekend. I am trying to put this into play. I am waiting for the greens to exit the boat and I take off from the center of the wash. I am now skiing out to my widest point and insted of just turning in and going, I am putting my handle out and forward of my body and then I swing a bit wider on the release. If I have that handle in the right place I am able to make my counter and have my pull in look more like my 2 ball. I had some good success yesterday with this and it is going to take a bunch of reps. I am finding that I can dish my counting and just pull out, release and head in. That extra couple of feet from my release is enableing me to gat that ski under the rope with more angle before the wake. My speed is ok and I am not getting slack after 1 ball anymore. I look much better on film also. Once I am in the course I have no problems getting wide and early, its just that gate and 1 like Dawg is saying.   

   The purpose of the one-handed gate is to simultaneously allow the ski to arc outside of the buoy line while letting the body move inside the bouy line.

I think that is what I am starting to do, Thanks MB.

[merlin]

K....MS...you said you pull out from the center of the wash....you need to start your cut from further over to the left....Thomas starts just to the left of the trough...maybe this is what you are talking about...anyway, when you start your cut do not pull with your shoulders away from the boat, rather lean with your left hip and  open your shoulders as if you are trying to look at the wakes.  Then let the ski pass underneath you as you edgechange and you can now start the gate properly.

[Old MS Accout]

The center of the wash is just out side of the trough. It verys from boat to boat, but I am out of the lip and to the middle of the wash when I start. I had 5 more shots at it last night and things are starting to come around. I was lacking the width from the release. I found out that I need to head in sooner then I was due to the extra second that I release out and cut in. Timing is now the thing that I need to work on. My form looks much better on film.    

[matd81]

Hey MS,

Do you have that footage of Thomas Moore on PC at all?

If not does anyone else have any good footage of him?

[skidawg]

go to youtube and search h2osmosis king and queen tourney, you will find it under the finals recap or something of that nature.

[Old MS Accout]

I have it on a super 8 in my sony camra/vcr. I just hook it up to my TV with an S cord and thats the only thing I have ever done with it. I do not know if I have the capibility to down load as I am not a techie at all. I cant do you tube due to access. Its killer video with Billy S, T mo, Trapp, Trent, Wim and a few BDs like Chad S.   

[Horton]

I embeded the YouTube from H2oSmosisisisisi aver at Other Stuff: More Cool Stuff

 MS. . .  it sounds like you are running parrellel (sp?) to the boat before you turn in. If so this is waste. Along with what Matt said, I think speed is a huge part of the gate. I try to arc out and back in one motion. If you go out and hang then you are wasting boat gas.

[Old MS Accout]

All week long I have been working on my release and pull into the wakes. It is much better now that I have watched myself on film and then looked at what others are doing. Controling that speed is critical. My gate pull in is starting to look much more like my 2 ball. 

[jrmacdds]

For a one-handed gate, at 34 mph is there a general consensus as to when to start pulling out? And from just outside the left wake or just outside the spray as a starting point? Thanks...Jim M.