Z7 Review

[Horton]

Finally got off my butt and started writing a review about this ski. Look for something next week.

[MrJones]

Haven't written about the Z in a bit since I am on the Elite now. I do have a little more info though.

My wife was on a RCX and wanted to give my Z a try. She liked it and skied a tournament last weekend with only 3 practice sets on it. She skied okay, but 4 buoys less than her best of the year on the RCX. She said the ski felt good, she just kept getting later. (She is a shallow 35 skier just for reference)

Well, she went back and tried the RCX last night and said the Z was definitely better for her. Today a good friend (and fin doctor) came over the ski with us. He suggested taking A LOT of length out of the fin. I wasn't sure as I was already a good bit shorter than "factory". Long story short she really liked it. Factory (for the 66") is listed at  6.910. I was at 6.870. He took her to 6.845. (Tips) 

I am very happy with the Elite, but with the way the Z looked I almost wanted to snag it back from her and try it for a set. The ski is really good. I just think the length they recommend from the factory takes a lot of life out of the ski. If you are struggling, try shortening it up. 

sj

[MrJones]

Oppps. I have to apologize. Just went by D3's site and saw that they have some new fin numbers for the Z7. Shorter and farther back. I guess they are learning as they go and passing it along. I think the recommendations could be a lot shorter and maybe leave the depth where it was. Still, they are responding to feedback so "good on 'em!" 

sj

[Horton]

This took way too long but here it is. My review http://tinyurl.com/lehexr

 

[DaveD]

John,

Did the Z7 feel the same at 28off as it did at 35off?  Thanks for the review, Dave

[Horton]

Not sure how to answer that. I think the ski will do to you at your hardest pass what it does to me at my hardest pass.

[DaveD]

My question was more along the lines of "did the ski perform consistently as you shortened the rope"?

[Horton]

Ya I think so. As much as any ski. They all do different things as the skier gets more aggressive and the line get shorter.

 

It is a freak'n solid ski.

[Gern Blanston]

Horton - what is your "old reliable" ski?  You seem to be on something new every other day?

 Is there such a thing as brand loyalty outside of a sponsorship?  I appreciate that you don't want equipment holding you back or limiting your performance, but people seem to have no compunction switching skis at the drop of a hat.  If something truly doesn't work for you, and you couldn't determine it in the demo period, I totally understand switching it out.

I love my NRCX.  It was a natural evolution from my old Nomad.  I've been so happy with the NRCX that I have only grudgingly considered dropping the coin for the Z7 (in negotiations with the wife).  My ski buddies are pretty similar.  We don't switch boat brands, either (not that we're getting new boats every year).  We have fun kidding each other about their "poor" choices.

 where I'm coming from is that I was dumb enough to buy a HO Truth a number of years ago thinking it was just like a CDX.  That ski was like a banana and almost killed me with a few OTF falls.  I've been extremely leery of HO and now Radar as a result.  Call it a trust issue with Herb.   Denny produces a very well made, reliable, and user friendly ski that I've gotten a lot better on.  At some point, the Elite, the A1/S1, Z7, Prophecy, Goode etc are all exceptionally good equipment that is not going to limit anyone if it's setup and used properly.  It's just a matter of preference and style.  To use a golfing analogy, the new driver or putter only has a few good rounds in it before the old errors rear their ugly head.

 I guess philosophically speaking - am I the odd duck?   Are guys switching to get out of a rut?  Just to be on the latest and greatest?  Just to try something new?

 thanks!  (sorry perhaps this is a new thread?)

[MrJones]

Gern,

He is my thought. I have talked to a couple of RCX skiers who have tried the Z7 and like it any better than their current ride. I rode the Z coming from another brand. Where I had ridden D3s in the past and found them a little "stodgy", the Z7 felt faster and more "crisp" in the course. (Sorry. The choice of words to describe the Z7 is a little difficult for some reason) 

Anyway, my point is that I think it has a slightly different feel than what D3s have had in the past, and if you are die hard X5>Nomad>RCX skier then the Z might take a little getting used to. Having said that, my wife was on the old Kidder junior team, rode the CR7, and has progressed from Custom 4 to X5 to the Rose over the past few years. She hopped on the Z7 and loved the feel immediately.

sj

 

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I’ve been a fan of Denny’s skis for many years, even though I’ve been riding others skis for almost the last 20 years (yikes!).  My brand loyalty is to whatever ski works best for me.

Probably the strongest point of the Kidder/KD/D3 brand is that they are easy to ride.  That is most people can jump on one and feel comfortable and ski close to normal straight out of the box.  The Z7 takes that “comfort†to a whole new level, but at the same time it has the “Indy car†level of performance that something like a Goode or a Monza has.  Kinda like a Porsche that you can drive to work every day and still feel comfortable.  

I have no doubt that anyone who has liked and skied well on one of Denny’s skis would really love the Z7.

Horton’s review was a very good description of the ski (as much as I hate to agree with him).

My fundamental philosophy on skis is that no magic ski will give you another pass. or even another buoy.  The critical thing that the ski does is have a dominant effect on your consistency.  The Z7 is has that in spades.

[Horton]

Gern,

My old reliable is still  my 68” MPD.

Since I ran the Ski Tests 3 years in a row and now have this site, ski testing is part of my hobby. I will tell you that this year jumping from ski to ski has certainly hurt my skiing.  On the other hand I think my understanding of the gear makes me a better moderator and writer for the forum and site.  I wanted to ride more skis and write more about them this year but it has not worked out.

One of my drives is that I do not know how anyone buys a ski without ridding a lot of demos. All the skis do different things. I do not believe in brand loyalty. Each ski is the result of its designer. At D3 there is some continuity because the core guys are the same but that is not true for a lot of factories.  The Z is not like the RCX. Yes the quality is there but you can trust the quality of most skis today.

The Radar MPD was not related to any HO. It was mostly an Andy Mapple ski. The RS-1 was an MPD tweaked by Rini and Rossi. On the other hand the A-1 and the S-1 both come from HO and are nothing alike. I skied well on an A-1 last year but think with time the S-1 might be better for me.

I do not believe that you should change skis like I do but skis do get better every few years. I think the RCX was the best ski D3 has ever made and I suspect the Z7 is head and shoulders better still. I would have to revisit the RCX to be sure.

I am sure that I can not get the same high score on any of them. Maybe I will break out the MPD soon…. Who knows.

Try new skis when you can. Spend money only when you are sure. If you find a deal buy it, try it and resell it.

Can I sell you anything? :-)

[sixball]

I picked up a 68" Z7  about three weeks ago. I do not have a course to ski but love very aggressive open water skiing. 35 off 36mph I am an old fart chubby skier.

I have been riding a Goode 9500 67" 240amp since it came out and loved it.

I am skiing as good or better on the new ski. I find it Very forgiving, very stable, turns outstanding and equally good on both on and off side turns,

very good glide,  I would buy it again very very satisfied. I also think it is the smoothest ski I have ever ridden.

I have not been on a Kidder or D3 since the old KD7000. I hated the ski so I was concerned when I ordered this new ski but all is well and I find the Z7 amazing

[Gern Blanston]

Horton -

the budget doesn't really allow for a new ski at the moment.  Nor am I terribly interested in changing gear this late in the season (got maybe 2 months left here in WI before they lower the lake).

They don't let us drop a course in my lake, so we free ski.   with the help of some good instructors, I've made some strides in my skiing the last couple years. This summer, I've made a couple runs at 41 off at 36.  I will freely admit I'm sure I don't have the width to make a single bouy.  My only point is to suggest that I feel my technique is finally good enough to handle it.

My progression I bought the Truth because I liked the CDX.  I was told the truth was an updated CDX.  It turns out I CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!  I demo'd a CR7 while at Swiss Ski School.  It immediately felt better.  I switched to the Nomad upon Darren Wiley's suggestion - if you like the CR7, you'll love the Nomad.  I don't live close to a good pro shop that would let me demo gear. I tried an X5 Pro from SIA and didn't like it.  It felt too "loose" - more like a sedan when you're used to more of a sports car feel.  I got my RCX after demo'ing one when I skied with Seth early this year.

that being said, it doesn't sound like I can go too wrong with any of the major players stuff.  what would you recommend/what have you got for sale?

thanks

JJ

[Horton]

If you are not rounding buoys then my tune is a little different. Admittedly you sound like an extreme free skier, but unless you are chasing scores I think your RCX if fine.

 Being in the course, many of us are struggling for one more ball so we are looking for the TINY differences.  And yes that does often take the fun out of it. Without buoys I would think any solid high end ski is all you need. The RCX is one of those skis that you can not go wrong with.  

I would love to sell you a Blem MPD 67” but I think I would be taking your money without helping you.  I would be even happier to sell you a new Z7 or Elite but again you own a killer ski.

[Gern Blanston]

I thank you for your honesty.  It's much appreciated.

[JohnN]

First day on Z7 review. 

Ok, I bit the bullet and took John's Z7 off his hands (thanks!).  I mounted it up with Animals at 30, and left Horton's settings (2.489, 6.857, .709, no wing).  First set toeside was great, angle was great, but heel side was sluggish (no other way to describe it).  2nd set, moved front boot back one hole.  On side, or heel side, was much better, turning on the ball, and the toe side turns still great, maybe a little muted.  3rd set no changes to the ski, but switched to a 2008 SN with ZO.  With this setup, 28s are feeling very nice, 32's pretty nice, but I have to work more than expected.  Only tried a couple of 35s. 

Going out again tomorrow, but I'm still tossing around what to do with the fin.  Turns are feeling good, although there is too much bite if I get too agressive.  Angle across the wake is excellent.  I'm early, but just not wide for whatever reason. I'm getting the occasional onside wheelie as well. Reading back through this thread, I'm thinking I'll add a wing first.  Next, maybe a little more depth, again to gain width.  It seems that everyone else is further forward, so I may try that depending on the other results. The flip side would be to go way shallower which someone suggested. 

The feel I'd like to get is the smooth turns, but a little freer feel from the wake to the ball, and a little less bite when I jump on it.    Any other suggestions would be welcome!

John

[JohnN]

Oops...make that length 6.957, not 6.857.  I'll probably be pulling some tip out as well.

 John

[jdarwin]

First of all, you are WAY too long.  Try 6.900 (tips).  This is why you are getting great angle but no width.  The moment you transition off your lean, the ski is tracking back toward the pull (boat) and into the buoy.  Put the wing back on at 7 deg.  I suspect that the extra length was to compensate for no wing - just a hunch.  Put the depth at 2.505.  This will assist w/ maintaining width but also will allow the ski to carve out of the turn w/ some speed.  DFT is not as critical on D3's as it is w/ other skis (Elite) due to the large sweet spot.  If you feel the ski "sticking" at the back side of the turn, move the fin forward 5/1000th's and try again. 

I would try and "dial-in" the length first.  Take out tip 3/1000th's at a time until you feel the ski free up off the 2nd wake.  Good luck.

 

jhd

[JohnN]

Yeah, that was my thought as well, but it was worth a shot.  I knew today was going to be a short one, so I broke my rules and changed it all at once after thinking about this thread.  I like your thinking!  Here's where I went last night after posting - .719, 2.500, 6.915, wing at 7d.  As you thought, the width was much better, and the ski was feeling more "normal".  The other thing I did was change to my new binders, still Animals.  However the updated plate makes me use more cant on the rear than the old one, giving a harder turn.  The other thing I felt today was a hesitation after the ball, kind of a float before the boat picked me up.  I think next set I'll shoot for less tip, probably 6.900 as suggested.  I always did like less tip in the fin.  Then on to the dft.  Thanks for the help!  BTW, I think the Z7 has great potential, and I'm looking forward to getting it dialed in!

 John

[JohnN]

A quick update on the progress of the Z7.  After pussyfooting around different settings I just set it back to stock (updated D3 settings of 2.500, 6.900, a little back at .730, and one hole back on binders).  The ski feels really, really good now.  On-side is phenomenal, off-side is good, and width is free and effortless.  The 35's are coming back and I'm bummed the water is starting to cool down.  Really thinking about leading with my hips on the off side is helping with that turn.  The nice thing about the ski is if I blow it a little I can drop the hammer through the wakes and still stay in the pass.  Angle is still fantastic!    I'm still going to try to get the off-side dialed in - going stock with the front boot made the ski feel a little unstable with the previous settings, but I may try it again just to make sure.  Other than the off side turn, the only thing I'm struggling with is my timing on my gate.  The Z7 glides much better than my previous ski and I'm finding that I need to adjust the intensity and timing of my pullout.  I am just amazed at how good the stock settings are for this ski!  Also, I tried it at 36 mph 28' off and it was killer!  Not my usual speed, but it sure was fun.

 John

[jdarwin]

John - I have a 68" coming this week.  I've been testing a 67" demo and like what I feel but need a little bigger ski.  It seems the stock numbers on the web site are getting closer to what is being run in the field.  What was your thought on moving the bindings back one hole?  I've never considered that on a D3.  Thanks.

Joe Darwin

[jdarwin]

I moved the bindings back one hole on the 67" demo I've been riding and like what it did at the finish of the turn.  The ski felt like it stayed out in front better.  Again, I think the ski is a bit small for me (68" will be here Friday) but I REALLY like how the ski turns with very little skier input.  My RCX requires a bit of a "push" w/ the front foot to engage out of the turns.  I'm excited about the 68" version - I think it will be the ideal combination of speed and stability.  I love my RCX but wish it were a bit more engaged and quicker out of the ball.  I think the Z7 will acheive this.

[JohnN]

Moving the bindings back really seemed to smooth out the turns, so I've been running them that way (08 Animals).  I feel the Z7 comes out of the ball as quick as anything out there, and is really fast when pushed.  It will be interesting to see how the 68" works out for you - I bet it will be really good.  The 67" doesn't ski "long" at all in my book. Joe, on your 67 demo, did you find both turns to be symmetrical, or was it kind of an either/or depending on your setup?  Where did you end up on settings?

 John

[jdarwin]

John - w/ the bindings back, the ski finished both sides well.  At stock, the toe-side turn was a bit sticky.  Again, it feels a little small compared to my RCX and I haven't been cutting the line past 32.  If I remember, the settings are:  6.880 tips / 2.500 / .740 flat.  Pretty much stock with the exception of .020 off the length.   Could probably go shorter.  I'll probably translate these settings to my 68 as a baseline and go from there.

[jdarwin]

After a couple of days on the 68" Z7 and trying different fin combinations, I've arrived at what works best for me - and obviously others as well.  6.876 / 2.506 / .735 / 7 deg wing.  Bindings stock 30.5".  I don't think the ski is necessarily "faster" than the RCX but holds its angle better out of the buoy and therefore gives the sensation that it is faster due to the track it takes outbound off the 2nd wake.   Now that I've arrived at a fin setting that seems to work well, I'll concentrate on trying to be more calm on the ski as it tends to reward that.  The RCX required a bit more input to acheive angle - I need to learn to "just ride" the Z7 and let it do the work.  All in all, it is not just an improved RCX but a completely different ski that has the same "feel" of other D3 skis but with a more aggressive personality.  Unlike other D3's I've ridden, you can "over-ski" the Z7.

[jaredH20]

jdarwin how would u compare the z7 to an x5?

[jdarwin]

I have not ridden an X5 in several years but the skiers I've seen make the switch have improved dramatically.  The Z7 rides higher in the water and therefore reacts cleaner out of the buoy - no delay.  It carries more speed into and out of the buoy resulting in a smoother transition from turn to hook-up.  I would strongly suggest trying one on a demo basis if possible.

[jaredH20]

cant demo any skis =(,, im currently on the 2006 65" D3 X5, have tried the A1 enjoyed the angle that it had out of the bouy, would u suggest upgrading to the z7 or A1? whats the z7 like in the rough?? Will i be able to get it a widder with it? tho that is probably technique not the ski...

[jdarwin]

I can't comment on how the A1 compares (have not ridden one) but if experience is any indication, the Z7 is a more user-friendly ride.  Most skiers I know who started the year on an A1 are riding something else now.  As for width into the buoy, it all depends on technique and fin/binding set up.  Either ski will generate width if you apply those two factors appropriately.

[MrJones]

I rode both earlier in the year. I find the Z7 to be a much more user friendly ride. The A1 required a lot of strength to maintain angle and was not tolerant of any flat skiing. If you are strong behind the boat and move the ski out on edge completely in the edge change it works.

 You can do most anything on the Z and get away with it.

 

[jaredH20]

thanks for your help guys, looks like i'm going to get the z7, can't wait =)

[Donski]

Looking for #s on a 65" Z7, I see D3 updated there measurments in July, but was told the ski i demoed was not set to factory #. I am 150 lbs and getting half way into 28 off.

[jdarwin]

Donski - We have three different size Z7's at my lake and they all are within the range of:

Stock binding position

6.860 to 6.880 tips

2.495 - 2.506

.730 - .740 DFT flat

Considering you are on a 65", I would start w/ the low end of the range.  

[Donski]

Jdarwin - Thanks for the info, Doug the D3 rep called me back and said he would forward me the #s from the ski i demoed. I will post the #s that he gives me. 

[GMC]

I now have 6 sets on my 66" Z7 that showed up Tuesday morning.  I initially set it to numbers that were recommended to a friend (bindings at 29.5", 6.885, 2.510, 0.745 flat - it was delivered at 6.960, 2.520, 0.745) and went at it.  First two sets were OK, but it overturned on my onside if I made any sort of aggressive move.  Moved the fin back to 0.735 for last night's skiing and it was very poorly balanced - still overturning on 2-4 but now occasionally breaking me at 1-3-5 as well.  Tonight I moved the bindings back to 29.125" and it started to show some promise, although it could still finish with more angle at 1-3-5.  According to JD's range it looks like I'm starting to move in the right direction but I'm still too deep and too long.  I'm getting the occasional 32 but my consistency right now is not where it was on the trusty 9800.

I also think it's noteworthy that I'm using FM Quattros that are heavy and make alot of tip pressure - much more so than the average bindings, thus the binding move back.

Any suggestions?  My plan is to continue towards JD's range throughout the weekend, weather permitting.

 

 

[jdarwin]

GMC - first and foremost, "factory" fin settings from ANY manufactuer are crap!  They just jam in a fin, box it up and out it goes.  The ski companies all complain that skiers don't know how to set up the fins on their respective skis - BS!!  THEY don't know how to set up fins.  That said, I would try these settings:

6.870 - tips / 2.505 / .730 - go back to stock binding placement.

This ski loves to carve.  And, with too much tip, will begin to carve before it should.  This will cause you to be narrow and have too much tip pressure in the turn.  This is the cause of your breaking at the waist - the ski is stalling in the turn.  Try these numbers and let me know how it's working.  I'm on a 68" and just moved from 6.870 to 6.865 tips - I think this ski needs very little tip to work well. 

[GMC]

Thanks JD.  Those settings turned it into the ski I expected it to be! 

 Hope the gambling tournament is going well today and Scoke leaves with enough money to get home...

[wskier]

 JDarwin what #'s would you suggest on a 67" Z7

[Donski]

 

Have three sets in on my new 65" Z7, well 6 sets in if you count the demo ski. Went with Jdarwin #s on the low end of 6.860 / 2.496 /.730 and the wing in the middle hole at 7 degrees, binding med. D3 in the center hole. First two sets the ski felt better than my X5, but did not have the great off side turn I felt on the demo ski set up. Before my third set I got these #s from the D3 Rep. 6.87 /2.462 /.731 flat. Third set tried these new #s, ski felt similar but on the last pass the tail blew out on my onside turn.

There was three weeks between the sets on the demo ski and when the new ski arrived. Best way to describe what I felt when I skied the on the demo  ski was it felt like more of the ski or front bevel was in the water on my off side turn, just stood tall and the ski carved the turn all by its self. Best off side turns I have felt in years. I can't seem to dial that feeling in on the new ski.

Question: Mounted my med. D3 bindings in the center hole, which I took to be stock. Tapping from the heel rubber it measures 28 13/16. Stock # for a 65" ski is 29". Doses 3/16 of an inch make a difference?

[jdarwin]

wskier:  On the 67" ski, I would start w/ the numbers I quoted above.  Maybe a bit shorter to 6.860 but the depth and DFT tail numbers should work well for the 67" ski.

Donski:  the tail blew out on your onside because the fin was WAY too shallow - 2.462 w/ that little of tip caused the blow out.  2.495 would be the shortest I would go.  As for the bindings, I would try and get the bindings to stock but if your bindings don't allow, try and ride it back 3/16" and then forward 3/16" (holes are 3/8" apart) to determine which feels better.  I've moved my bindings 1/4" forward and then 1/4" back of stock and found the stock setting to be the best.  One of the skiers at my site is running his 1/4" forward of stock and likes it. 

[am]

hello there, just got a new z 7 slalom, size 66'' . i am still learning the fin setting game and read all above.

any "specificaly favorable" numbers for 34 mph and working on only 22 off ??

thanks a lot.

[GMC]

Boots 1 hole back, 6.885" long, 2.505" deep, and 0.750" DFT (head) is working pretty well for me on a 66".

[am]

THANKS GMC , I WILL TRY THAT.

[clemsondave]

Mine are a bit extreme, but work well. Got a PB in my 2nd tournament with it.

6.990tips, 2.515, .729, 29 3/8 with hardshells on a 66"

 

Experimented with different settings, but kept coming back to those. It also seems to like less wing. I'm at 6*

[jimbrake]

Holy crap, Clemson Dave, that is an s-load of tip. I tend to run longer than I see people posting on various boards, but more in the 6.930 range. I know TWinter likes to run his fin pretty long, too, but not that long. Hey, if it works - cool. I found that in colder water longer/shallower works well, and in warmer water, shorter/deeper.

[hogexpress]

ok, i now have tried the 65' and 66' z7.  i have enjoyed skiing both.  i'm 160# and 34 mph skier.  the 65' worked great with boots in center (29.0).  did not like 1 hole back.  the 66' worked great with 1 hole back (29.25), not great with boots in center (29.75).

i agree with the comment that this ski is sensitive to binding/fin changes.  i was able to tell on both skis if i was in the 'sweet' spot depending on the binding placement.  the ski wants to initiate the turn and finish the turn in the sweet spot.   otherwise your kind of pushing the ski around.  

i'm still playing with the fin but today .765dft, 6.830, and 2.500 felt good.  wing @ 7 deg.  this was the 66'.  

keith 

[jdarwin]

I've played w/ the fin/binding setup a bit more now that the tournament season is over.  I've arrived back at stock for the bindings and 6.870 tips / 2.495 depth / .750 DFT and 7 deg wing.  Basically the same as I've been running except a bit shallower.  I typically like a deeper fin but the 2.495 lets the ski roll out into the preturn a bit easier and still tracks well and doesn't "slide" at the end of the turn.  All in all, I'm very pleased w/ this ski. 

[clemsondave]

Yep, mine is crazy. I let a friend try it for a few sets. I then mounted my boots to it and just started riding it. Skied amazing! It wasn't till 3 weeks later that I bothered to measure it. Pretty shocked at the settings. It definitely works though. I'm early and wide at 38.

[eleeski]

I picked up a 65" Z7. See, I do try factory skis. Well actually it was for Kirk. But I mounted my hardshells and gave it a try. Conditions were a bit adverse, breezy and really cold (after 3 days of windstorm and clear nights the water was 56F!) and I couldn't make a pass. The ski felt horible - unresponsive turns unless I tried really hard and then it would dump in. I was pretty worried that I had wasted my money for Kirk.

Yesterday I was back at the lake. Glass and the water was a comfortable 71F (OK once we churned up the lake it dropped back to 68F). I rode my ski and took a weird skip out fall at 32 off that released my hardshell (by breaking it - repairable). I still wanted to ski so I went out on the Z7 with rubber boots. Ran a couple of passes! The ski seems to be perfectly suited to "west coast" style. When I would stick my butt at the buoy (the essence of west coast) the ski turned beautifully. Ran 32 off! Easily!

The differences in setup between the disaster run and the great run were: 9 degrees wing for the bad run vs 7degrees wing for the good run. Hardshells vs rubber boots (modified animals). The hardshells were centered a bit to the left and canted a bit vs the rubber boots were straight. The net boot placement was 1/4" back with the rubber. The fin was ~.010 shallower in the front on the good run (I missed my scribe mark when resetting the fin but I normally like a bit less fin in front so I didn't fix it).

All the changes were ideas from this thread. Thanks guys.

Except the fin. I was going to put an old Carbonfin on the ski but it didn't fit. I messed up Doug Moss's numbers trying.

Eric