Different ways of thinking about the same old stuff

[Horton]

It seems that if you coach long enough you find that you are generally correcting the same stuff all the time but doing so in different ways. Ask the guys I ski with and they will tell you I harp on “stack” non-stop.

 

Part of the trick is finding new ways to approach the same problem. Back in the old days, we just said “Get your hips up”. Today I think that is a terrible thing to say. Now I generally talk about back leg flex and or pelvis direction but the goal is exactly the same as when I said “hips up”.

 

What got me thinking about this is that I found a new way to stay connected off the second wake. This is not a new technique but just a new way to try to trick my brain to hold on to the handle a little longer. All I am doing is thinking about squeezing the handle with both hands off the second wake. The result is I am staying connected a few feet farther and getting wider.

 

Anyone want to share a different ways to think about the same old slalom concepts?

 

[Wish]

new way to try to trick my brain

 

that says it all in how I have to deal with my skiing. I will be trying this new brain tricker this evening

[Razorskier1]

I like it. I can only think about one thing at a time -- more than that and it's trouble. What I determined this morning is that if all I think about is being consistent in the intensity and duration of my pull, everything else (pre-turn, turn, hook up) all seems to work great on both sides of the wake.

[Than_Bogan]

Like that "trick"; definitely will try it.

[rawly]

And I thought I was opening a thread on the keys to long term marriage.However,I will try that technique.Thanks

[Chef23]

@Horton if someone's hips are hanging back what do you tell them to do with their back leg. We are trying to get one of our ski buddies into that stacked position and haven't hit on the right thought.

[Horton]

@chef23 There are a number of ways to NOT be stacked. One of them is back leg bent more than front. If this is the case. Straighten both legs. It sounds crazy but I try to ski as straight legged as I can.

[Texas6]

@Horton, I understand the straight legged thought process to help yourself get stacked in the work zone behind the boat. But dont you find that hurts your turns a bit?

[Wish]

I tried @Horton s brain trick this evening. 28 off...very cool. 32 off .....very very cool. 35 off ...ball 1 very very very cool. Rest of the pass my brain turned on and told my hands to knock it off. Still ran 3 passes at 35 and almost 4 at 38 twice but when things happen that fast, it's hard to overide what the brain is screaming. If I tell my brain..straight legs and squeeze the handle I'll probably have an aneurysm.

[Horton]

@Texas6

Try to be straight legged does not mean you really get straight. Remember all that really matters is where your center of mass is. It is hard to drag your ass of your legs are straight.

 

Now this may not be the key for you to get stacked. My point is we need to look for different ways to think about the mechanics of skiing.

[tsixam]

Instead of just ”holding on with two hands” I´m thinking of using the handle as steering wheel off the second wake. With elbows on the vest point the handle in the direction you want to go or start to counter with two hands on the handle. It gives me extra space before the next ball.

 

Tsixam

 

[crashman]

@Horton the advice I've received from this site is finally starting to undo the damage from some bad advice I got 2 years ago. Your "straight" leg and chin high advice is really working for me in the pregate- beyond that I'm thinking of keeping my elbows and hips attached and using the boat to pull my hips up through the gate. Doing that I've progressed more in the last 2 weeks than the entire months of March-May. Oh and starting Zoomba has helped with my hip action on the slalom course, but that's another thread.

[webbdawg99]

As is the basis of this post, not all people interpret what is being coached to them the same. For years I heard the phrase "counter-rotate" but was never quite able to put it into practice. However, after my ski partner got some lessons down at Trophy, he came back with a new interpretation. He told me to "twist". Although this may seem to be a small or indistinguishable difference to some, that little change in verbage opened up a whole new level of skiing for me!

[lagdawg]

Chef, are his hips dragging back, or are his shoulders too far forward. I kept trying to get my hips farther and farther forward but it still didn't work. When I realized that it wasn't so much as my hips being back but instead my shoulders being to far forward then I was able to correct the problem. I tried and tried to get my hips to the handle/handle to my hips and everything in between, but in the end it was thinking about getting my shoulders back. When my shoulders went back my hips were closer to the handle.

[Razorskier1]

I agree with Horton's concept of straighter legs. I think about "skiing tall". Watch CP when he is gliding for the gate. He is standing as tall as he can with his knees, hips, chest and head over his front binding. Further, I use this as a way to measure whether I'm pulling too hard. If I can't maintain a tall position in the lean (the boat is squashing me), then I'm pulling too hard.

[Chef23]

@lagdawg I think in general if the hips are too far back the shoulders are too far forward. Your point just solidifies the point Horton was trying to make that different thoughts can fix problems.

 

We have tried the get your shoulders away from the boat and it isn't the magic bullet we are looking for.

[rawly]

DOUBLE SQUEEEZE THAT HANDLE!!!! Could not believe the ease and width I got with that tip. The extra nano second that that technique keeps you on the handle is unreal. THANKS JOHN

[Horton]

I can not say enough ... this is not the golden tip of all time. My point is we all know what we need to do but the trick is looking for new or better ways to think about it.

[Wish]

All I am doing is thinking about squeezing the handle with both hands off the second wake.

 

@Horton are u squeezing all the way till you let go with one hand or sooner than that? Man....hearing that question out of context just sounds wrong. Still wanna know though.

[Horton]

As long as I can

[fu_man]

@Horton I'm really glad this thread is happening right now. I just got done taking a few lessons (from a guy everybody knows) and I'm conflicted. I always tend to ski with very straight legs....what Horton said. Squeeze my rear to keep my hips up. The other thing I did was look at the pylon as I crossed the wakes rather than where my ski was going in order to stay stacked. And honestly (at least in the open water because I don't get into the course too often) I've has really good results with this. The other night I was tearing it up. However, it was pointed out to me at the lessons that when you ski straight legged your hips are automatically not square with the ski and therefore you are less balanced on the ski and will tend to put more weight on your back foot rather than having weight evenly distributed between both feet. The lesson was focussing on keeping everything in line with the ski (hips, shoulders, head) and because your hips are square with the ski, then your hip will naturally be closer to the handle (to achieve "stacked") than if your hips are slightly angled. We were working on gettng speed across the wakes with direction rather than lean. The conflict that I'm sensing is that in order to REALLY keep your hips square with the ski you have to bend your back knee to tuck it in behind your front knee. It seems like I'm hearing advice to do opposite things. Can anyone help clarify this for me or is this just a matter of different styles?

[Than_Bogan]

@fu_man Standing more straight is a remedy for some specific body position issues. It's not necessarily a "general recommendation."

 

I'm afraid the advice you got confuses me a little. What does "square" mean in this context? Usually people try have their shoulders relatively "square" to the boat, by which is meant that a line through your shoulders is perpendicular the direction the boat is travelling. (Btw, nobody literally achieves that, it's just that the other extreme is much worse, so most people need to think about opening their shoulders to the boat a little.)

 

But you seem to be saying everything square to the ski, by which I would think you mean the opposite? If so, I haven't heard any top coaches/pro talking that way in a long time, but that doesn't necessarily mean much!

[Horton]

@fu_man

If you got coaching from a pro coach listen to them first.

 

Besides that it is all a matter of degrees. How straight is straight? How square is square?

 

Watch video of CP. To me that is the target.

[MattP]

@fu_man skiing with Jodi?

[Razorskier1]

@MattP -- that was my guess too! Have skied with Jodi several times and really like his approach. However, I believe I can do what he says (hips square to the front of the ski) and what @Horton says (ski tall) at the same time.

[skinut]

just got done skiing with Jodi and like fuman I was a little confused. I asked him why the pros skiied open and he was teaching a more closed approach. He basically told me that being open was fine but when you were open you had a tendency to get on the back of the ski and be out of balance. He said the pros could ski open and balanced. He basically said I should learn to stay balanced and that by not being as open I could acheive that. The pros who ski open are very balanced and don't shift weight to the back of the ski.

[Taelan28]

@Horton as a teacher myself i know what you mean. But thats the way the brain and body works. Its not a machine or computer where the same input wields output every time. The brain and body are nerves not buttons. Often a teacher needs to teach the same thing a dozen different ways so the desired outcome becomes habit.

 

Heres an analogy for you. Have you ever turned a woman on the same way every time? no. Teaching and learning is sorta like that. New angles and approaches need to be taken to get the deaired result.

[Ed_Johnson]

I think we should get Shane to comment on that one !!!!!

[Than_Bogan]

Tried the handle squeeze thing. Didn't work for me. Oh well.

 

But I very much like the idea of trying to find tricks like these to make us do what we're trying to do! Keep 'em coming! My "What Preturn?" thread was intended in this light, actually.

[Wish]

Have you ever turned a woman on the same way every time? no. Teaching and learning is sorta like that. New angles and approaches need to be taken to get the deaired result.

 

As someone that's been in education for almost 20 yrs I'd have to say that is the first time I've ever heard educational philosophy put that way. hmmm? Should I incorporate that into my next conference? That should wake up those attending.

[ski6jones]

I've been told by a number of people, using different words, to do a "thing" with no positive affect. Then someone uses a different description or analogy to describe the very same thing and Voila! Break through!

 

This is why finding a coach that communicates with you is SO important.

 

Also, as @horton says, it is to our ski partners benefit to approach what you are trying to tell them with different words/analogies/etc.

[fu_man]

@MattP

@Razorskier1

@skinut

Yes, skiing with Jodi.

@Than Bogan What I meant by "square" was having head shoulders and hips pointed such that you are pointed in the direction that the ski is traveling which is not open to the boat.

[MattP]

@skinut I have worked for Jodi for two years now and spent an entire summer

With him last year. Follow what he says I know It sounds contradictoray bit it took me from motly running 15@36 to mid 35 in a season. It works

 

The pros you see that are skiing more open have learned from as young age to ski a more traditional style that taught them to ski balanced on their feet and translated into their ever changing style. If you are not centered over your ski and not balanced you will not be able to translate that into a more open approcach. I know @triplettt can add more to this.

[MarcusBrown]

OPEN TO THE BOAT!!! N

 

Skied against Fish for years....fierce competitor, great guy.

 

But opening to the boat is the keystone to staying balanced. Facing the ski tip makes it harder to stay on the skis sweet spot.

 

But please, never open to the boat by twisting your spine!!! Make sure your HIPS are facing the boat (or trying to face the boat, cuz we all know it's nearly impossible to be perfectly square), that way your spine is under no or little rotation. Twisting spine + load = bad. Watch west coast slalom DVD if you wanna learn how to ruin your back.

[skinut]

@mattp That was the impression I got from Jodi. Learn balance first then apply it to more advanced styles. Like Mr. Miagi, wax on wax off!

[skinut]

@marcus- I have been trying to ski open to the boat for years and have a tendency to get on the tail of the ski. What do you suggest to do to prevent that?

[Steven_Haines]

Skinut,

How much space do you have between your boots? I was having the same problem until (I think it was) Richard Doane suggested that I close the gap in my boots spacing. Magically that problem went away thank you very much!

[Steven_Haines]

I love the way Nielly pushes her lead hip in the direction of travel! She gets so much power and acceleration out of that one simple move. She's a incredible skier!

 

No offense Marcus, but I think Nielly is my new hero. LOL

[ForrestGump]

I have been having a problem at 35 once I started attempting it. Dropping in WAY too hard at 1, getting crushed, and then falling at 2. Last night another skier told me something really simple that helped when he was learning 35 and 38. He said when you get to your hard pass, think about skiing full buoys only. Ie, you only want to turn 1. Then when you turn 1, only attempt to get a full 2. And on down the course. I'll be damned, next set ran right up the rope through 35 and got an awesome start on 38. That one little thing helped me to tone down how I started the pass at 35 when "Dude, this isn't 41 off. You don't have to turn it that hard!" didn't work for the last month.

[Razorskier1]

@MarcusBrown -- question. I have skied with Jodi as well. It seems to me his approach is a hybrid that I know works for me. Let me try to explain it (I am RFF). Use the gate pull as an example. When I was turning in for my gate both my hips and my shoulders were open to the boat -- easy to do on the "on side" lean. Jodi's recommendation wasn't to close myself to the boat. What he did say was that on that side my ski would carry out better off the second wake if I squared my hips to the ski (not open to the boat) and only partially opened the shoulders (say 45 degrees). I found that this did make it easier for me to carry outbound and that I could do it with less load, which saves the back.

 

On the 135 turn and lean, I am of course more closed because of being RFF. As a result, on that side I actually work to open up a little more. Said differently, on this lean I try to let my left shoulder come forward toward the boat rather than digging it in away from the boat.

 

By thinking about the two leans differently, I am actually creating a more symmetric lean side to side. On the "on side" I keep my right shoulder back just a little to create essentially a 45 degree angle. On the "off side" lean I let my left shoulder come forward (toward the boat) to create the same.

 

For me this has resulted in less back problems as I am lighter on the line by doing it. The attached pictures are a few years old, but hopefully show what I am saying.

[MarcusBrown]

@Razorskier1 Great shots, and not at all what I was expecting to see from your description. Let me first say that I think we are splitting hairs at times. Secondly, what we attempt to do on the water, and what we end up actually doing are almost always 2 different things. I totally hear what you are saying, and I can see where it would be beneficial. I'm not discounting the approach at all. But I am claiming it is less than ideal.

 

If folks find that opening to the boat is putting them back, or causing their ass to drag, or anything of the like....they are doing it wrong. Square/open to the boat by itself is no magic bullet. It is just a requirement...

 

Onside cut: hips facing ski tip, shoulders partially open (at about 45 deg) sounds like a concerted effort to twist the spine, in my opinion. Bad for the back....and less than ideal for being balanced on the ski. From the transition outbound, anytime the hips/shoulders/core attempts to twist away from the boat (towards the shore), the outbound direction will be compromised: Twisting outbound moves the rope tension to the leading side of your body, which turns your body into a huge roll of toilet paper that tends to get "unwound" back to the inside. By keeping the line tension at least centered through your body on the transition/outbound movement, there is no "Torque" on your body....allowing you to simply ride the end of the line outbound. Even better is a slight transition of the tension to the trailing arm (soon to be reaching arm), during the outbound move. Not saying its easy...but is the most effective/efficient, with the least adverse loading on the body

 

Of course you will have to approach the two leans (onside vs offside) differently. But one thing I will say, from reading folks wording on this topic, is to be more conscious of the hips/core....instead of the shoulders. Letting your left shoulder come forward a little bit on the offside cut is one way to think about opening up a bit....but when we think in terms of "shoulder-centric" movements (shoulders as a frame of reference), often times we forget about the other body parts, and its easy for the hips/butt/ski to get left behind or lost in the movement. That's why I tend to use "hip-centric" language, to make sure I'm not only managing the hips, but also whats directly above them and below them. i.e., the hips are the center of the system, where the center of gravity is.

 

What I tend to see with people who have a hard time utilizing the concept of "square" or "open" to the boat is either one of two things:

1. They cannot translate the idea into movement, or they cannot comprehend it in the manner it was presented. Either way, that is a coaching error, not a skier error.

2. They feel they have properly executed the movement, but it wasn't effective, nor was it the best freakin' thing they've ever felt in their lives. Either way, once again it is a coaching error (or self-coaching error), not an actual failure of the basic concept of square/open as the ideal anatomical position for acceleration & line control.

 

No doubt, most people who are self or club taught, and haven't been to a great coach like Seth, Rini, Drew, Rossi, TWB, etc.. will drop their butt when squaring their shoulders.

 

Butt back = weight back (and static)

 

Weight back = high load, low acceleration (low angle)

Weight forward = low load, high acceleration (and dynamic)

 

The pros are mostly Open/Square to the boat because it works. Not because they've learned how to make a bad position work.

 

Be Dynamic!

 

MB

 

[Deke]

Kinda surprised nobody jumped in here... It makes me realize why the WCS DVD didn't work for me. I obviously had it wrong.

[Razorskier1]

@MarcusBrown -- great description! I really like what you said about the potential for the body to get "wound up" by the boat only to get unwound after the second wake. Makes total sense. At my size (and age) I am admittedly a little stiff through the core, so it is actually easier for me to be in this position than in the more hips open position. I had skied with hips open before and it does have that magic feeling, especially noticable at the gate, like I just turn in and float through the gate with almost zero load on the line.

 

One problem I always had with hips open (RFF) is that coming out of the two and four my hips would be open and my back leg would twist (toe plate) toward the boat, separating my knees and screwing my balance. On the 135 side, I have difficulty with just getting into a more open position given my aforementioned stiff body.

 

Sounds like I need Jenny to train me to get me flexible again and you to coach me to get me rocking 39 off. So how would you like to spend the summer in Minnesota? Free room and board!

 

Jim

[Texas6]

@Razorskier, I have a similar issue when practicing "staying open" behind the boat. Opening my hips while in a leveraged position, has a tendency to turn my ski in the direction of my hips, preventing me from maintaining outbound direction to 1,3,5 (LFF skier). I don't know if I am over rotating my COM or if this is a flexibility issue or both?

[Razorskier1]

@Texas6 - I have that issue as well. If I try to open my hips I rotate the ski to having less angle. If I keep the hips square to the front of the ski (going the direction of the ski) I carry much more width more easily. At 48 years old and having had a ruptured disc in my back along with spinal arthritis, etc, I am certain that limited flexibility is a part of the issue. My lumbar spine neither flexes nor rotates very well.

[jimbrake]

Hopefully Marcus will reply, but I can tell you that the rotational force that opening your hips has on your ski is minimal (if any) compared to the weight shift forward affect. Opening your hips shouldn't force the ski tip to rotate in the same direction. Think of "swinging" your hips in the lead direction instead of just "rotating". Right hip swings forward to go right, left hip to go left. It's a rotational move, but effectively it's more of a weight shift forward in the direction you are trying to travel.

 

Like Marcus said, you should be trying to move your weight forward for better acceleration. This move does that. What are your other options for moving your weight forward on your ski while being leveraged away from the boat? You could try leaning your whole body towards the tip (while hips and torso face the tip), but you will likely just bend at the waist while trying to maintain your arms in connected to your body - it doesn't work.

[sunvalleylaw]

Ok, I am marking this discussion to come back and read later. More good stuff!