Lean the F&$% forward!!

[Brady]

I don't know what else to try other than setting my bindings even more forward. I am making progress this year---much slower than anticipated--and the same thing keeps staring me in the face. I AM LEANING TOO FAR BACK!!!! When I am skiing, I feel like I am forward, but coming around the balls and getting stacked, I am still far too back. I keep thinking to push on the front toe as I am coming around the turn, but the video keeps showing otherwise. I would love some feedback. My only options are to learn this or watch videos of @klundell and pretend I am him--although I am as good looking!!! Help!!!

[MattP]

@brady can you post some video?

[ral]

Video?

 

Leaning forward is for sure not the answer. You do not want to lean forward when skiing. You want to have your weight well distributed over the ski.

 

Actually, pushing on the front toes is what you try to do to have the ski going in front when cross course, not to be balanced when turning the buoys, as it will result in you being back as the rope is not pulling you... Rather think about feeling your weight on the ball of the front foot.

[Wish]

@Brady. Ok, bit of a limb here without video but it's possible you have your boots to far forward. If they are, the tendency is to ride on the back foot to keep the waight in the center of the ski or you have to lean back to do the same thing . If boots are to far forward and your waight is even and your not leaned back the ski will not support the waight that far forward and to much of the front of the ski is engaged. Don't know how far you've already moved them forward but if the condition is worsening or not improving with a forward movement, try going back. Once there, work on equal amount of weight on both feet and feel free to let your weight come up over the ski in the preturn. Many reasons to disagree with that therory but sometimes counterintuitive moves do help.

[ral]

As @Wish described (better than me, although I tried to say kind of the same thing...), thing about weight distribution and not about pushing anything when you are free from the towline (preturn and turn).

[Brady]

 

I can get through the course now at 28.6, but it is not pretty!!!

[MISkier]

It looks to me like your legs are too straight (especially front) and your arms are pulled away from you with the handle high. I would recommend pushing your knees a bit forward. I often put one knee just behind the other and slightly to the side to cue them to bend/slide forward. For the handle, pin your elbows and triceps to the vest and keep your hands lower to your hip.

 

Others here are better with analysis and coaching, but it seems the straight leg might be forcing you to put extra pressure on your back leg to ride the tail. Get the knees and hips forward with some bend in the knees. You can see the straight leg right away after your pullout and into your glide.

[ral]

Interesting technique for turning 3...

 

1) DO NOT lead with your upper body/shoulder. Look at your pre-turn initiation, you are actually leaning with your upper body in the direction you want to go. Head and shoulders should be always level. Lead with your hips.

 

2) As I mentioned, trying to lean forward will result on you tending to be OTF.

 

Try Seth's whips drill, and notice the difference between the way you pull out and the way Seth does

 

[A_B]

To correct straight legs, Push your front knee forward over your ankle, even on the glide to gates. On pullout and completion of turns, drop your inside hip to initiate acceleration, not leaning backwards. (Gates are outside hip).

 

The other drill I can't emphasize enough is pullout on both sides as far as you can with hips up and bent front knee, and lock the handle on your hip and try to set your shoulder in the water with balanced weight on each foot. This position has to feel 100% solid, and is your kick butt and take names position behind the boat. Your may want to shorten to 28 off, as it will get rid of the rope slop. Lean over until you are about to stall and hold it. Feel the balance between you and the pylon.

 

Everyone starts out using the back foot as a rudder, so don't feel bad. Form a plan of attack to get out of it.

[Horton]

@Brady did you read the thread about riding the tail?

[BraceMaker]

I'm in the same situation as you @brady - when I think I need to get my shoulders more forwards I end up bending forwards at the hips and flexing my spine.

 

On a big public lake I tend to get into this "protective" "soft" stance, particularly since the one course is situated in an area that gets lots of jet ski fly by.

 

Passes v. Crashes seems to require pinching the dime and getting the chest up before the pull out. If not it is a back seat shoulders forwards pass.

[MISkier]

One of the key things in that "Riding the tail" thread is flexing the ankles to get the knees to bend and push forward. If you just bend your knees, you will squat (as @ShaneH said). Don't do that.

[ForrestGump]

Also, straighten back leg. You can't get back without a bent rear leg.

[Killer]

You're a big guy big guys tend to try and use their strength but its not a tug of war. Stop pulling and start leaning. Feel the speed donT fear it. Spend some time away from the buoys. Speed up the boat a bit and work on the body position and whip drills the guys talk about.

[A_B]

Think of fast feet drills in football. Knees flexed on balls of feet, not flat footed on heels.

[Brady]

Thanks for the input guys. And, yes @Horton, I have read the post. The problem is that you are thinking you are doing it one way and then you watch a video and find out you are doing the opposite and look completely like an ass! Good thing I haven't recorded other videos, ya know, wifey videos! I don't think my ego could take that one. :)

[crashman]

This thread reminds me of the time I went to ski school and the "coach" kept yelling "did you pay for the entire ski? Well then use the entire ski!!!" But he never actually told me how to do it and leaning over the front of the ski sure as hell doesn't work.

[KcSwerver]

@shaneH speaks the truth. This could easily be the biggest solitary thing that has changed my skiing instantly. It's hard to do at first because initially it "messed up" my already messed up form but once I put my mind to it and just went with it, it was absolutely spectacular, my hips went up my ski shot across course and I was waaaaaaiiiiiitttttttiiiiinnnnggggg (yes that long) for almost every buoy..

 

Thank you Shane for helping me in my thread. You are a great part of this community.

[BraceMaker]

@scotchipman - I like the concept of "push the handle away" it is one thing to try to relax and straighten them, but pushing the handle towards my arse seems to do its job. But beyond that - getting the handle into the fingers instead of the palm, if I start palmed I will try to pull on the handle. I do it all wrong so this one is helpful, hard to do a pull up on the tips.

 

Safety wise - - don't put arm through - but mostly, let the boat take the handle from you, never throw/spike/toss or in other ways release the handle other than when the boat has the slack out.

 

Anytime you see folks having encounters with the rope or handle in videos you will see them either toss or drop the handle on slack.

[Than_Bogan]

Lots of VERY good advice there @BraceMaker, but I disagree on (or at least want to clarify) one subtle point: I believe there are (fairly common) scenarios where tossing the handle is exactly what you want to do. The most common of these is where you kind of skid out at the end of a turn. This means you're basically lying on the water with the handle still in hand and the rope slightly slack. If you wait for this to come taught, you are already in the path of the handle. If you give the handle a good launch into the air, it'll be far away from you and cause no problems.

 

But it's certainly true you want to keep the handle in your hand as long as you have any hope of guiding it somewhere good (or, at least, better). And if/when you do throw it, do so only for the specific purpose safety.

 

That's my take, anyhow.

[Horton]

@scotchipman "front knee over the front toe" is pretty idealistic at @Brady 's level. Very few skiers at any level actually do this and most that try do bad things trying to achieve beyond their level. Equal bend in both knees or less bend in back knee is more reasonable.

[BraceMaker]

@than_bogan - that is exactly the video with @ral ? I think it was his, where the tossed handle skips and wraps around the forebody of the ski. Scary stuff - that was the best argument for dual lock I've seen.

[Klundell]

99.9% of the time that you tell a noob to bend their knees it will cause them to get in a worse position. Stand tall and straighten your legs is usually the better cue to get a skier to move there weight forward. @horton I thought you were on the straight legs bandwagon!

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton is the straight legs bandwagon! I would never have even heard of this idea if not for him.

[Brady]

sigh...I am a much better boat driver than I am a skier! So friggin much to work on and progress is so slow! I am skiing 6 sets per week and I am not seeing the progress I had hoped for. What this tells me is this....YOU guys running into 35 plus are Gods to me! I have played at the elite level of football and the top level of Golf and have excelled in every sport I have attempted, and skiing the balls is by far the most difficult sport on planet Earth and the elite athletes in this sport have no compare!!!! I will say this, I ain't stopping until I am there as well. I don't care what it takes and how hard I have to push, I can't get rid of this addiction and I suck at this sport--imagine how much worse it will get when I am better!!!

[Joeprunc]

I know a lot of people that are much better than me say don't mess with your fin or boots....but I decided to move both my front and rear binding forward the other week on a club member's recommendation. I'm not sure if its I'm more comfortable skiing, or the relocation of bindings actually helped, but I am not tail riding anymore. And feel a lot stronger coming out of the turn and thru the pull. And a lot smoother edge change.

 

As far as fin movement, I took the winger-dinger off and will not even think about touching the fin until I'm at atleast 28 off (that's a long way away for me).

 

Another thing that might help you...Try focusing on keeping the back leg straight and front ankle bent thru the gates, and one ball, then mirror the rest of the course focusing on the same thing. Keep doing this until it is second nature coming out of one, then add two ball, and continue thru the progression of the rest of the buoys. The reason I say this is in my progression, I could apply good form in steps thru the course. For me the first few buoys everything was great, then I started focusing on the next buoy and not form. I made bad habits worse just to get to the next one. At first it I could only focus on form thru #2. So I stopped trying to ski around #3 and focus on the pull out of two. Once that was linked together I added the turn around #3, and so on and so forth. I would still ski the course, just not around the buoys. This allowed me to keep my timing thru the course.

[Than_Bogan]

@Brady Personally I think it's a little more accurate to say that it's hard to apply athleticism to slalom. When you get near your limits, athletic ability may ultimately be the difference between -43 and -35. But a larger part of it is very specific and often totally unintuitive body movements, with fairly precise timing. It can take a lot of patience and a high tolerance for "working on something that isn't really helping yet" to advance.

 

This makes it a long road to get a lot better, although there are occasional leaps along the learning curve.

 

And then one day, some dude at a tournament points you out as the guy he wants to ski like. Woah. Feels like it was just yesterday that 36 mph and 136 mph seemed about the same speed to me.

[madcityskier]

Try flexing your flutes. This will force you to pull your hips forward over your feet. Shoulders forward often accompanies weight back, for this try squeezing your shoulder blades together. This will keep shoulders back and chest forward. As stated previously bend your ankles, not just your knees.

 

[Texas6]

Flexing your "flute" as @madcityskier requests may work in certain situations, but can be awkward in slalom

[Marco]

@Brady - Just remember that hips ahead of shoulders is a major compnent of being stacked, and shoulders ahead of his is a major component of massive OTF's.

 

Also, keep in mind that this sport is so hard to practice. Say you do 6 passes per set, 12 sets per week (which is a lot), and you still only get about 20 minutes of actual course skiing in per week. It takes a lot of laps to engrain new and proper technique. Patience, my friend!

[ral]

@Brady, this sport might be counter intuitive, but if you log hours behind the boat, it will pay back. In some sports like golf, tennis or swimming, starting over 35 years old might mean that you will suck all your life regardless of what you do. In skiing, you will progress, provided that you keep logging hours, keep in shape and avoid injuries as much as possible. On that last point, though, it is a fact of the sport that you will get injured eventually. It sucks, but that's the way it is...

[gregy]

@brady how far are you from southern Idaho. Ski with Terry Winter.

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/8523/terry-winter-clinic-in-southeast-idaho

[jayski]

@Brady 10,000 hour rule...patience my friend

[Klundell]

@brady I'm still planning on having you up sometime soon. I have three tournaments in the next seven days so probably not for a week or so. You should come up and ski in the Bear Hollow tournament on Saturday. They have a novice division so you can get a mulligan if you don't make your first pass.

[Brady]

@Klundell I am in! Call me and let me know the details!

[6balls]

@brady you are a big donkey (I didn't say @ss). There is a pile of leverage available to you if you use the ski. You can talk about different places in the course and where you need to be, but at your size and height face it...you are not as able to be mobile on the ski as I am at 5'11 and 180 lbs without penalty...you need to be better. You need LESS movement overall and to stay over the bindings because your two inch mistake in upper body position is magnified by both your mass and length of the lever arm from bindings to your upper body mass.

Your stance before you ever pull out for your gates is on your rear foot. I'm a toe loop skier and when I stand in the wash, I tell myself to stand on my front foot...my back heel is off the ski at that point to accentuate my mass over bindings. My chest is proud and shoulders back, my elbows are back and tucked to my vest and if you do this you will be shocked at what happens when you lean away from the boat for your pull out in anticipation for the gates. The ski will be efficient for the big fella and with little effort you will just scoot out there for pull out. Now think about what that pulling efficiency will do for you cross course from buoy to buoy as well.

To generate the same pulling effort given you are a big lever, you don't have to be as close to the water as me in your lean to use your mass to advantage, and you can't ride the back 1/3rd of your ski and hope to carry your mass.

Work on your basic riding stance over your front binding, and make it your leaning stance as well. Holy crap...did you just pick up a pass?

 

 

 

[Dusty]

Like several mentioned- good knee bend starts from bending the ankles forward. On the pull out, i like to stand up and feel a centered, balanced stance with knees slightly bent. Similar to 'settling in' as you set up a golf shot, or before shooting a free throw. Of course, then the line goes tight, my mind goes blank, and the wheels often come off... but once in a while I can keep that centered feeling all the way thru the exit gates! Sometimes even for a whole set!

[Texas6]

@jayski, I am familiar with the 10,000 hour rule and you make a great point. In slalom however the 10,000 hour rule would require over 2 million passes at 34mph. Man I hope I live to finish that many, but Im certain I'll die trying. @Than_Bogan, please don't check my math:)

[madcityskier]

Apparently autocorrect doesn't like "glutes".

But I will stand by flex your flute, every chance you get.

[Rich]

Do you want the ugly truth or do you wanted sugarcoated let's try the truth you need to get your strength to weight ratio much better try Bikram yoga 4 to 6 days per week if you weigh 190 now you should weigh 170 being a big strong guy works great in football and doesn't matter in water sking.

[madcityskier]

Totally agree. I'm naturally huge by skiing standards, it's one of those times in life where what is more often than not an asset, really hurts me. Strength to weight helps, but not many offensive linemen are out there skiing the course.

[Brady]

@Rich I appreciate your honesty. I am approximately 252 right now. My ideal weight--in my opinion--is at around 220. I am working so hard to drop the extra 30 pounds, and I am open to any and all coaching on how to get there. Looking at my video, I can see I am a wide body! But, like with skiing, I am willing to do whatever it takes to progress and ski better.

[Than_Bogan]

While being a scrawny weakling is perhaps not quite the ideal, I do seem to have an advantage over larger skiers. If you can get to scrawny & powerful, THEN you've really got something!

[ral]

@Brady, your ideal weight for slalom might be less... Most high end senior skiers (Malhomme, Mapple,...) are leaner than what they used to be.

[estrom]

@Than_Bogan, I think you just described Nate.

[Than_Bogan]

@estrom Yep.

[Brady]

@Ral damn. Dude, I look damn good at 220. Just sayin!!!! :)

[gregy]

@brady there's a guy that skis at our lakes that a pretty big dude. Could definitely stand to loose a few and tall. He can ski pretty damn good, deep shortline. You definitely would be better lighter but its not a deal breaker. Mike Kjellander was like 6'7" and a big guy he one of the top slalomers. Take advantage of any professional coaching you can. It generally comes in plateaus.

[ral]

@gregy, some years ago, I was in Australia skiing near the gold coast. That weekend, a handicap tournament was taking place, and skiers could go and do their pass over the weekend. A guy came out of a truck, dressed like a construction worker, probably 40 to 45 years old. He had a serious belly, I though he would probably have a hard time even for doing his shoelaces. He pulls a ski, gets dressed, and jumps behind the boat. 28 off he asks, and I though there was something wrong on that. He ran an easy 28, clean 32 went thru a full 35. He was breathing as if he was having a hearth attack, and said that he was not convinced to keep going, but managed to get I think 2 @ 38. He even did a tick-tock when headed to the dock. The guy was good. He was an ex-elite skier, and reminded me the Hot Dog ski movie, when the guy gets his a$$ beaten by a really overweight ex racer on a parallel slalom course.

 

It might not be a deal breaker for an accomplished skier, but if you want to progress fast from slow speed long line AND stay injury free (especially back issues), you rather be on the lower weight side.

[Than_Bogan]

I just did a little math (yeah yeah everyone is shocked), and I used the actual 3 dimensional world exponent of 3 (unlike my nemesis the BMI).

 

I then used Mapple's 6'2" 180 frame (that's from memory) as the "gold standard."

 

Equivalence chart for Mapple-matching-frame:

5'6" --> 130

5'8" --> 140

5'10" --> 150

6'0" --> 165

6'2" --> 180

6'4" --> 195

6'6" --> 210

6'8" --> 225

 

Not everybody's frame can do this. I'm 10 lbs under (6'2" 170) but I bet I would be a better skier if I seriously dedicated myself to adding 10 lbs of muscle (which would be VERY hard -- I have to train to even get to 170!). But being shaped like Mapple doesn't seem like a bad general target!