Video Gate Review Delays

[thompjs]

ral, on jump yes I have -- when the computer blue screens and you have someone rewind way too far, etc, etc. (In the old days of VCR tape, a judge rewound to the spot and then hit record and it was gone forever! -- that was in runoff for first place).

 

What is great about the 4 channel DVRs is they don't have erase!

 

At this SC Regionals, we had one of our usb capture devices flake out just as the jumper went over. Fortunately we had two computers per grid running and got the jump without rewinding the dvr. We replaced usb capture with spare and rebooted, no time lost.

 

We did miss one jump and used dvr, fortunately James was there and knew exactly how to do it quickly and it only took an extra minute or so.

 

Please post model numbers of DVR that are so easy to use.....

[ForrestGump]

@MickeyThompson Let's not intermingle issues. My issue is not with the fact that we judge gates, but the process by which we've chosen to video and review them. The gates are the gates. They're a part of what we do. I personally think they should stay. If I'd have gotten to the end of the lake and the boat judge had told me "You missed your gate, you're done." I'd have been fine with it. My issue is that we allow a video gate review to be open ended with no time limit imposed. I'd much rather see 3 or 5 judges call the gate real time and be done with it.

[BG1]

@ RAL I’ve seen a many jumps take 2-3 minutes then the jumper has to take another jump because of some technical problem. This may be good or bad for the jumper and their competition depending on how far their jump really was. This goes all the way back to the wide “triangle days”. It happened more than once at this years Masters where you have the best running the tournament and equipment. There is no better system to score the event so jumpers have to deal with it. Do you want the slalom skier to have to rerun there pass when a decision can not be made promptly? What a waste of time that would be for something that does not even score.

[thompjs]

@RAL, we had spider crawl across camera window that just about completely obscured the jumper!

 

If it can go wrong it will!

[ral]

@BG1, when technical problems arise, yes. But not for video review. The point I am trying to make is that I have not seen many technical problems to review a gate (not that they do not happen), and a gate review, even a close call, should not take more than a minute. I have seen it done and I have done it many times. With a Costco DVR. Not talking theory here.

 

I agree with @OB, no need for cameras or anything like that when not L or R. But with L or R, cameras and video reviews should be there.

[thompjs]

@RAL at the tournament that started this thread there were probably 50 or more reviews that were done in less than the set down time. Judges hitting the wrong button in the heat of the moment and getting completely lost caused the issue on a few skiers.

 

I'm using the Maganovox MDR 513 single channel DVR and it will easily jump back 30 seconds and allow easy frame by frame forward and back. I also have 4 channel recording gate and endcourse as back up of that.

 

 

[MISkier]

I've seen a few comments on here about the option to "continue at risk". Why would that even be something to consider forgoing? The only thing you will do differently by waiting for the ruling will be to get out of the water if/when it goes against you. And, just what are you risking? More money? Leg breakers waiting for you in the alley? If you can continue skiing and move to the next pass, I say do it. Let them drag you out of the water later when you are found to finally be the fraud they say you might have been to initiate the review.

 

By the way, if the answer is more money, I think I would probably pay for an additional pass if I have committed time and a lot more money to be there.

[JGray]

That spider will go down in TC history. Probably should always tell that story at any and all future TC clinics.

[jedgell]

For me I'd rather not be told they are reviewing my gate. Let me keep skiing an if the gate ends up getting pulled then tell me when it's been confirmed. I just don't want the distraction, there are enough things to think about.

[TFIN]

I think the current gate rule is not the issue, but rather what is being asked of the judges needs to change. There are three judges viewing in real time. Simple, majority rules. A split call from the towers should not warrant a review if the boat judge gives credit. Go to video if both judges are not certain of the call; the intent of a review is clearing uncertainties not reversing calls.

On another note, the officiating work at SC Regionals was ideal. A seamlessly run event.

TF

[klindy]

Video reviews can be avoided entirely per the current rules. For all tournament (except R and the US Nationals) you can place four judges (two on each tower) in appropriate towers. In this case the two tower judges and boat judge make the gate call. No video, no review required. This scenario does require 2 additional judges (only one additional if there's boat video). Of course it's only possible if you can put a judges tower in the appropriate location (44 degrees off the centerline of the course and approximately 10' off the water surface, higher if farther back).

 

IF you can't place a tower at the appropriate locations you can use a video camera. For class L, if you're using a gate video camera, the "signal will be taped so that review is possible" (IWWF rule 14.11). My interpretation is that if you are skiing Class L and using 2 tower judges with video, the IWWF rules require gate video and that the signal be recorded for potential review. I don't see an option to use the boat judge to call gates UNLESS you are not using gate video (i.e.-you use 5 judges total).

 

However, for Class E it is only "recommended that the view be recorded" (AWSA rule 10.08,C,2,d). If the video is not recorded, then the two tower judges (or the two with the best view AND the boat judge call the gate (AWSA Rule 10.08,D,2,c). Again, no review required even if you are using gate video and two tower judges. Further paragraph "d" allows for the Appointed Judges to determine when the video review will take place and, if after the skiers last pass, "the skier shall be advised that he is continuing at risk" (I assume this is the item @ShaneH refers to Richelle's comments above). Additionally there is language which guides the process as to how to resolve any disagreements between the event judges.

 

So what? Well at SCR Regionals we ran a mix of Class E and Class L. The site was setup to run L (and R) so review was possible. As @thompjs indicated there were dozens of gate reviews without incident throughout the tournament and, unfortunately a couple that were less than efficient - to say the least. The rules currently allow for flexibility based on site conditions, equipment and personnel available. I personally see no reason to change the rules regarding this issue.

 

One topic that hasn't been brought up by advocates of 'relaxing the rules or interpretations' to effectively give benefit of the doubt to the skier is the fairness to all the other competitors in the division. Fundementally I find it unfair to everyone else if one skier cuts so close to the gate that you "can't know for sure" and then give them the benefit of the doubt. It seems that the incidents of gate reviews are significantly higher at Regionals and Nationals probably because medals (i.e. real competition) is on the line rather than just ranking list scores. I had a good conversation with an OM skier not too long ago that reminded me that EVERY score can be important at some point. Giving one skier a 'close is close enough' pass may boost their average to a point where it cuts someone else from a tournament or a ranking level.

 

Granted, it's a difficult situation with all the electronics and lack of training but all the officials, etc. Many (most?) of us have been tower or boat judges and we all volunteer. We all do our best and sometimes mistakes happen - they are unfortunate for all involved and I don't know a single person who's been in a position where they've caused a delay, made a hard call (right or wrong) or somehow 'screwed up' that hasn't been noticably effected by the situation.

 

 

[klindy]

@TFIN actually it's only the two tower judges that make the gate call. The boat judge is not included if video review is available. If there's disagreement between the two tower judges there is need for review. And, if the video review doesn't solve the disagreement the Chief Judge casts the deciding vote.

[TFIN]

Yes. I know and that is the problem. Why is the boat judge rendered useless?

[klindy]

@TFIN that was exactly my point. The tournament officials have a choice to allow the boat judge to call the gate (for class E at least) and avoid the whole replay issue completely. That's in the rules today.

[sbink]

Sorry for the delay Shane.i was on the tower pushing the rewind button.i guess I messed up and it took a while to find the your gate shot.in the mean time you had elected to proceed.The event before The one i judged had a very long delay for similar reasons.The event after the one I judged had a several minute delay for similar reasons.I personally don't think any skiers tournament ski ride or judges volunteer effort

Should be affected by having to call someone's gate.Do away with 2/3rds of the equipment and a lot of

Skier and judge unhappiness by adopting Gordon's entry gate idea.Forget the gate cameras!Our sport

Is declining and anything that can make this hobby more user friendly and simpler in general

should be welcome.Once again,Sorry for the botched judging effort.

[Horton]

I think I just heard a blood vessel in @skimom 's head burst

[Dusty]

I'm sure that all sorts of technology can be applied to the sport. Unfortunately, there is a 'trickle down' effect from "R" to L, E, and even C's. The gimmicks are available- who is going to own, maintain and replace them?

Do we want C tournaments eventually required to use video gates etc? The TC for a Class C is the chief judge. If we end up requiring a rated TC for a class C, be prepared to pay for the services and equipment- it's not cheap and it doesn't last forever.

Do skiers want to throw down (way) over $100 for a C tourney? THAT is where we're headed unless some common sense prevails. Do we wonder why INT is doing so well?

I've said it before. IMHO The judge(s) look(s) at it ONCE, in real time, not magnified, stop framed etc. and NO peanut gallery allowed in the tower or viewing site. Unless clearly a miss, the current rules say it goes to the skier. Let it be. It is unfair to the skier to interrupt their performance rhythm- if it can't be properly reviewed in the time it takes to drop and shorten, then the skier prevails and keeps going. We get over it and move on.

Q. Are we are installing and using this technology to make it better or worse- more fair or unfair? Most of us are not going to be collecting a big paycheck at the end of the day, no matter how grand we do. Maybe we are slapping too much lipstick on this pig and taking ourselves a little too seriously?

Rant over.

[ForrestGump]

@sbink , Thank you but I don't blame you or any other judges one bit. My problem is the process.

[The_MS]

I knew Bink was the problem. I say ban him from skiing and judging for 2 years.

[BG1]

One year at nationals I was getting my gear out of the car when a skier walks by dripping wet and says to me “Watch out on the starting dock end, their pulling gates left and right!” He was not happy. This skier was a former regional EVP. Judges are going to call it differently and differently on each end. In this case if a skier has a close cut by the gate on one end of the lake he is done. One of his competitors has a close cut on the other end and he keeps skiing. It is impossible to be fair with or without video when you have multiple judges making a very important decision with something as arbitrary as “give the benefit to the skier.” Not to mention they can’t really tell anyway when it’s close. Shane is not going to the nationals because of this rule and I can understand. It’s a lot of time, money, and effort to gamble. Just think how mad he would have been if they had pulled his gate and he had to swim to the bank knowing he had made them. One of my old ski partners had this happen to him 3 times at nationals and 2 of those were on his opener. He no longer skis. Another one bites the dust as the sport dwindles and we clench on to this useless rule.

[ToddL]

The desire to use technology is partly in order to pursue more accuracy in the sport. No one would argue against accuracy. But there is a cost/benefit question that is at play. One of the costs is the familiarity and process of using the technology. This is part of the core of this thread. How can we best establish protocols for using technology when certain issues come up? Through this discussion, we should uncover some valid ideas about how to best use the technology and how to manage the difficulties which come with it.

 

Further, there are benefits of accuracy at all levels of competition. However, to many people, the necessity of accuracy is not always critical at all levels of competition. Class C gets caught up in the trickle down of technology since many regional and national competitors build their rankings and "practice competing" at those class C events. Imagine the skier who has been scoring full passes at class C (due to relaxed accuracy) who then skies at Regionals and has gates legitimately cut. The lack of accuracy at class C in this scenario ultimately hurt the skier. The skier thinks the gate shot is perfect since it was never cut at class C.

 

So, the desire for accuracy is the driving force behind all this technology and complexity. The debate is at what point does all this effort overshadow the basic ability to hold and enjoy simple competition. GR is not the answer for the many skiers at max speed. Class C is too close to Regionals to be over simplified... So, here we are.

[jipster43]

I hate judged events at the Olympics and support any effort made to reduce the need for judging in waterskiing. @ShaneH says he would have been fine if his gates were pulled if only in a timely manner. I don't think I would be so gracious.

 

[sbink]

You dont need the accuracy for the entry gates if you dont judge them.

I wouldnt even go so far as to add a buoy per gordons proposal.

All the skier would have to do is get outside the wake on the 246 side somewhere

between the 55's and the entry gate which could be verified by the boat judge.

It would be up to the skier when to head towards one.Just use the existing gates as you choose for reference.

Leave the exit gates as they are but without video.Let the boat judge call it.

 

MS-Thanks for the kind words.Tell Mrs.MS hi.

 

[jwroblew]

To much reading in this post, so sorry if this was already posted. Gate video should be like collage football review. If it can be done before the skier goes then so be it, if not than you continue on as normal and they lose the opportunity to review it. This may even help the skier, lets say I am pretty sure I missed the gate, instead of waiting for the boat timer I go as soon as I drop and they shorten the rope, this would give the video guys little to no time to pull my gates.

[ForrestGump]

If we stop judging the gates, what do we do with all this free labor? They'll have nothing to do!!! Gate judging is as much about keeping @ms busy so he doesn't get in trouble as it is about anything!

[thager]

You could put him in charge of rope shortening.

 

[sbink]

I need a handle lengthened.

[jdarwin]

Hey, give the boat driver some love - I had to sit in the hot sun waiting this out!! @ShaneH - at least you were in the water! Oh, and overturning 1 ball at 32-off is what caused you to fall - not the wait!!!

[ForrestGump]

@jdarwin I see a 4 min gate review in your future at our September tournament. :)

 

Honestly, I don't disagree. Had I been skiing many years like a lot of people, the wait probably wouldn't have effected me. That's something I need to work on.

[Kelvin]

@ToddL In Class C tournaments only 1 of the 3 judges (at best) has a clear view of the gate, but it takes 2 cut gates for it to stick. So, unless it is a clear miss, the skier gets credit for the gate. When I'm in the tower with the clear view and a skier gets credit for a gate where I called a miss, I take it upon myself to find the skier and let them know they missed the gate. What they do with that information is up to them.

[matthewbrown]

New Rule(s):

1. the boat judge should never actually call a made/miss gate, you are only fooling yourself if you actually think you can be accurate---- @skimom circa 1986 berkley aquatic park that one still hurts

2. to further ensure this fact, the boat judge must drink 1 shot of kilo kai per pass

3. in reference to the nearest shore judge(s), in regards to a miss/made uncertainty or if the gate is actually called "out" a decision based on iron clad video must be made by the time the skier is pulled up out of the water for their next pass--perhaps an extra 30 seconds is added on to the timer

4. if this decision is not made, the skier gets the benefit of the doubt and all judges involved will need to take a swig off of their respective kilo kai bottles

5. the gates will still be video reviewed and this review will be streamed on to ballofspray @horton where we will all place bets on whether or not the gate was made.

6. with the proceeds from this racket, we will vote to either purchase state of the art sensory equipment for gate detection, or, buy more kilo kai for the tournaments while in support of the current inept system

 

[matthewbrown]

@kelvin in my entire career I have probably had 3 judges come up to me and tell me that i missed my gates so watch it next time....biggest waste of breath ever uttered

[The_MS]

If we make someone sit in the cattails for 5 minutes on a gate review, they may not come back alive without some anti-venom.

[ForrestGump]

@matthewbrown for AWSA President!

[JGray]

The only flaw I see in @matthewbrown rules are I don't see where the TC's get a mandated swig of kilo kai? They should at least get to when a spider covers the camera lens!

[Jody_Seal]

How about a secrete society. Fellow ship of judges their creed: we shall not pull gates!

Crap! Not a secrete anymore!!

[webbdawg99]

What are they secreting? Sweat? Body odor? Kilo Kai? I'm confused with what the secrete society has to do with judging gates.....