My unexpected results on the first set of my Reflex Binding

[ScarletArrow]

So I tried out my new Reflex binding (white cuff) last night...2 sets.

 

I'm LFF and I run a 67" HO A1. I'm 6' 165lbs. I'm coming off a Strada front at 29.75". A normal set for me is 15off at 30, 32, 34 and then shorten the rope (I've been running 22 more consistently lately).

 

It took me a couple of passes to settle in and get comfortable (as expected), but I found that the release of the ski on my onside pull after the 2nd wake would just dump me to the inside (breaking at the waist and extreme handle separation) as I approached 2 and 4 ball. This experience seemed to occur more on my warm-up passes (30mph) than later on.

 

I was not expecting this.

 

Is this the result of the hardshell giving me a faster edge change than what I'm used to...or the hardshell revealing a flaw in my form (lack of handle control into the offside)...or the need for a placement adjustment...or something else?

 

Has anyone else had this experience?

 

Any thoughts or comments appreciated!

[bhs]

It's been 5 years since I switched. My first pass didn't go well. I think I free skied a couple of runs until I got more comfortable with the set up. Don't panic, it's something new. Give it some time.

[ForrestGump]

The edge change becomes quicker. Which coupled with letting off the handle too soon, throws you to the inside. Been there, lived it. Let the ski roll out more before releasing and reaching.

[Chef23]

I am going to try to switch to Reflex after this weekend. It should be interesting last time I tried it I skied two passes and went back to my old binding. I am on a Strada also.

 

Any set up differences for the Strada vs Reflex as far as binding position is concerned?

[Than_Bogan]

As a general rule, a bindings change feels like a bigger difference than a ski change. And if it's a change of "general type" (e.g. rubber to hard shell), then the change in feel may be even more.

 

So the good news is this is normal. The bad news is you kinda have to give it a month of skiing before you can make an intelligent decision about whether it works for you. And you have to consider moving it forward or back, or maybe even want to consider "pivoting" it (rotate toe left or right) or "canting" it (rotate around the axis of the ski).

 

I haven't used hard shells in a long time, but Jamie B showed me a cool trick he uses to set them up. He stands barefoot on the ground with strings taped to his knees, in a slalom stance. He marks where the strings hit the ground. Then he puts the ski there, and tweaks the bindings until the strings land in the same spots, indicating he has achieved his natural stance.

[jhughes]

Very curious to see how this plays out SA, keep us in the loop.

[MrJones]

I went from Strada's to Reflex about 2 years ago. You will have way more control of the ski with the Reflex and it will respond accordingly. I had to back off a lot and put less input into my toe side (2-4-6) or it would shut down quick. I also had some massive (read out of control) angle out of toe side a few times. It took a while to get used to, but I would not go back.

[ForrestGump]

I had massive out of control angle out of my heel side when I switched to reflex. I recall Mike Munn calling out after one particularly brutal crash up onto the shore.......... "Mate, Andy Mapple couldn't hold onto that. What makes you think you could?" LOL

[LCZ]

Having switched from rubber to Reflex three years ago, the biggest difference you will notice is increased responsiveness in almost every movement. I had the tendency, and to some degree still do today, of letting my weight drop back going into the offside turn. The Reflex system just magnified this mistake and the ski didn't want to turn until I made a correction.

 

I've skied on rubber bindings since converting and will never go back. I don't know many people that have gone back to rubber after giving hard shells a fair shot...

 

We can talk in more detail at the Boots tomorrow.

[Waternut]

Agree with what most people have said so far. I'll add that tightening the boots too much or too little will have negative effects on your skiing as well so you kinda have to find a happy place on the buckles. I struggled with it for a while before watching a video on how Andy Mapple tightens his boot. He goes into a lot more detail on how and why his boot is setup but what I took away from that video was this: The toe buckle should be snug but not real tight, the middle buckle should be very tight but not cutting off circulation, and the top buckle should just barely be tight (Andy removes the top buckle entirely and runs a strap). Once I started using this methodology when tightening my boots, I got better and more consistent.

[bkreis]

I remember barely being able to turn in when I switched. It took 2-3sets to feel some predictability. I realized the top cuff buckle needed to be on the loose side, then pass by pass tightened it up. Don't look back..the rear r boot and regular front is the safest system I have ever used...make sure you periodically check all support screws on horseshoe and release! Good luck and enjoy!!!

[GOODESkier]

I am on the GOODE Power Shell 5 set up. I went cold turkey onto a GOODE Ski and Power Shells last year. That change revealed ALL my issues of WAY TOO MUCH MOVEMENT in my skiing. After getting settled on the ski and "refining" and CONTINUING to "refine" there is no way I could go back. Hang in there, get a friend who knows what they are looking for to watch and help you settle things out on the new equipment. You'll get your normal 22 and probably more in a short period of time if you work on the refinement. HAVE FUN!

[Than_Bogan]

Maybe. If you are as uncoordinated as I am, you may not ever be able to get little enough movement for hard shells to work for you. I tried them for an entire season because I was convinced of the safety (Fogman single plate pin release) and the potential for better edging. I finally had to admit I was never going to be a remotely consistent skier on them.

[Stevie Boy]

I will move to a reflex soon, but when I had a demo, the Pro skier gave me some very good advice, it comes down to the shape of your legs, if they are fairly straight, no problem if they have a curve in them, you may need to put an insole into the liner, it was explained, that when you secure your foot in the hardshell, your foot is pulled down flatter than rubber, at the same time making your leg straighter, this results in restriction of your hip movement/rotation, and you may have difficulty turning the ski on the offside, with the insole your foot remains the same as when you are standing, allowing you normal hip movement/rotation, I think I have got that right, it was probably explained to me in a better way.

Pro = AM

Thanks

[kreipe]

I've left comments about my experience switching to Exo's this year. Took MANY passes - but now I don't think I could give up less control. My ski level is similiar to yours - stick with it.

 

The only thing I really did was double check that front binding back was where my ski mfg recommended it to be. I didn't change anything else.

[DanE]

@rico Just curious, why move boot forward a notch when coming from Strada?I run Stradas on my Mapple and am on the fence between stock dft and 1 hole back, actually would like to try a sequence Plate for a middle of the road setting.

[Waternut]

I've played around with my Reflex's boot settings on my 2012 Strada. Started with 1/2" back and went to stock and noticed a massive difference for the best. Later I decided to try moving the boot forward 1/2" and absolutely hated it.

[MattP]

@waternut 1/2 is to big of a move. Can't you adjust 1/4 on your plate?

 

@horton I fully understand why.

[JohnCox]

I'm loving the Reflex and R-style. I have a wide, flat foot, but did a little modification to the arch area of my front shell with a heat gun, and it is much more comfortable. I may do a little more in the off season. I also got some metal buckles to swap out for the metal straps, but have not installed them...

[makeall6]

I just replaced a D3 Leverage binding that was old and torn to a new Leverage. Having all kinds of trouble. I never realized how much difference a tight fitting binding makes. Kind of happy to hear that it will take a couple of weeks to get used to it.

[Waternut]

@MattP Yes the front boot can be adjusted in any increment. I'll double check my notes when I get home. I remember I adjusted the boots in whatever increment the RTP hole spacing was so I could keep both binding the same distance. I was thinking it was 1/2" but you have me questioning my memory now...

[Razorskier1]

Binding changes are a big deal. I ran my first ever tournament -38 in 2007 on an Animal front and RTP. Thought I'd try the Strada in 2008. Took me the whole season to adapt to the binding before I skied worth a crap again.

[JohnCox]

I think you will like it, @OB. I thought I was "connected" on my Powershells before, but the Reflex is even more connected. I'm finding that, as mentioned above, finding the right setting on the straps is important. I'm snug on the bottom, tight on the center, and the upper is just connected loosely just enough to keep it from coming out. I fine that the bottom of my foot is planted firmly, but the loose cuff allows my ankle to pivot just enough in every direction to keep me freed up.

 

Like you, I was on the Powershells, and have used double high wraps since I was 13. Not having the feel of a binding on my rear ankle was strange when I went to the R-Style. I'm sure I could get used to it, but I just sewed a drysuit strap to one of my intuitions, and it still feels like I'm wearing a boot.

 

Next spring, I want to try a RTP...

[ScarletArrow]

When you guys talk about moving your binding 1/2, 1/4 or even and 1/8 of inch (as @Horton did in a separate thread) - how do you do that when there are preset holes in the binding plate (e.g. see @OB Reflex plate picture above)?

 

I understand the slots at the top and middle would allow for an adjustment of any increment (similar to what is on the Strada plate), but don't the holes at the bottom limit the increments you can make?

 

It's always been a mystery to me as to how people can adjust in such small increments. My basic thought has always been that you can go "one hole forward" or "one hole back" (each hole being a 1/4") from stock setting which is generally 29.5" on most skis.

[Deanoski]

on the reflex classic boot if you cut out the back piece in the rear of the lower shell ( they used to call it a flex brake) this allows the boots more fore aft movement with out affecting the skis plane

I first saw this mod on wiily boots 5 yrs ago. I have also seen this mod on the Wilson bro boots. They also cut the top down.

[Deanoski]

you can see it in OB picture, cut it out to be more like the rear boot

[ForrestGump]

This is what @Deanoski is talking about. The back of the boot dug into the back of my leg and left bruises, so I cut it down to the upper line on the cuff. That tab that rides inside the cuff would cause a binding so I cut it loose so the articulation would be smoother.

[Deanoski]

Thx Shane!! that's what Im talking about. if you don't do those mods the boot will not ski as good As it can. if modified like Shane Pic the boot will be easier to get use to and will ski great. The white cuff has the lower cuff mod when its delivered.

 

[skinut]

I just moved from PS to the Reflex. My first set on the Reflex was a bit of a rodeo. I am not sure if it was the bindings or the fact that I was just getting back on the water after 6 weeks from an injury. One thing I did notice was that I relied upon my rear boot on the PS more than I realized. It was a really weird feeling to try and turn my offside without a true rear boot. After two or three sets the boots feel more and more comfortable.

[JohnCox]

@OB - some say you should use the white, and swear by it. Others say the black is better. Andy doesn't even sell the white (I'm sure he could get it). I'm on the black, and love it. In fact, since I wear the cuff a little looser, I don't even think it's relevant. And I don't need to cut mine down, even when I was wearing it tighter.

[ral]

@OB, theoretically, the white cuff will allow a better ankle position when heading to the wakes with the ski in front, that would be the main difference.

[Deanoski]

keep the blk boot and do the two cuts the back and the top, or get the white cuff. I have both blk and white cuff they ski the same since modified the blk boot.

[Waternut]

Here is another thread that I thought was informative on the white cuff Reflex boots. http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/7357/educate-me-on-reflex-hardshell-white-cuff

[Gloersen]

White cuff better for slalom, the upper cuff freely articulates. The strap becomes taut with OTF situations thus engaging the heel for release. If you set the strap too loose and/or keep the upper buckle too loose you will run the risk of excessive dorsiflexion without engaging the heel to effect release from the Silvretta mechanism which in turn increases the risk of Achilles tendon rupture. At least so IMHO and experience after striking #6 bubble buoy coming back in laterally below the water line with ski just fore of the Reflex. (POD # 21)

 

I would think cutting out the flex brake on the classic Reflex shell would create similar concerns.

 

While the Reflex performs better when freedom of ankle flexion is enhanced; be certain that with acute dorsiflexion that heel lift of the shell is sufficient to engage the release mechanism. Dry land test the release multiple times, err on the side of slightly too easy.

 

Ski well.

[KcSwerver]

@shaneh and @deanoski what is the purpose for cutting these specific parts off, more interested on the top part and why?

[ForrestGump]

The top of the cuff would press into the back of my leg coming out of the water. Didn't like that. As I said above, the tab in the shell kept the flexion from being smooth.

[Deanoski]

cut the tab in the lower shell it helps the boot flex and lets you get the ski out it front of you without the ski wheeling (like Shane said), Also a low upper cuff will let the ski cast out better.

 

All the pros I have seen have cut the tab out of the back of the lower shell, a few do not cut the upper cuff down. but most do cut the top cuff also.

[Waternut]

I think we've heavily derailed the original topic but I'm going to go a bit futher... Do you guys think cutting the tab off the lower shell would increase the risk of ankle/heel injury or do you think that the tab wouldn't stand up to the forces required to cause that injury and therefore doesn't matter?

 

I can see the tab serving a legitimate purpose in roller skating because otherwise the skate would flop around every time you pushed off your toe but not sure if it has any benefits with skiing. Maybe it slows down the movement so we're smoother?

[ForrestGump]

That tab doesn't change the amount of flexion. It's just smoother without it.

[KcSwerver]

Will the tab resist flexion at a certain point like a pre flexion brake? Or is it seriously just a waste of slalom effort :)

[Drago]

When I used Reflex, it allowed full hyper-flexion. Doesn't replace a brake strap. It does create some friction (a stiffer flex)

[ForrestGump]

KcSwerver, I'll say it for the 3rd time........ that tab doesn't change the amount of fore/aft flexion. It makes it smoother and easier. What made me cut it out was that I could feel the cuff pop over the base of the tab every time I came out of the water. Drove me nuts.

[KcSwerver]

Apologies... I am just having a hard time visualizing, but that last one helped. Thanks guys.

[ForrestGump]

It's like a finger with it's base at the heel of the shell. The cuff rides over it. The problem I had is that the shell is pretty stiff there at the base of the finger, which made it clunky as the cuff rode over that spot.

[BlueSki]

Did those of you trying out Reflex now have them sitting in a box all summer? I have had my Reflex on order for a month and the shop is still waiting on Reflex to get them all of the parts needed for assembly.

[ScarletArrow]

@BlueSki I picked mine up from Mapple Skis at Nationals

[ScarletArrow]

Well, I learned another thing about trying a binding - make the switch permanent!

 

I tried the Reflex for 2 sets on Tuesday, got kinda comfortable, but not running my old practice scores.

 

Took it off and put my old binding back on, skied in a tournament Thursday and my first round was awful! Couldn't get balanced. Lol! Lesson learned.

[Chef23]

@ScarletArrow I agree when you decide to make a change stick with it.

[ForrestGump]

A binding change needs a commitment to 10 sets, minimum.

[ktm300]

Had a big dawg skier tell me to go with the black and leave the tab. His theory was that without the tab, there is no "stop" to keep you from continuing to go backwards when the ski gets in front of you. Seems to be the exact opposite of opinion stated above. I have both white cuff and black. Ski the same on both. The strap is all or nothing. When it comes tight forward movement stops. The black tab provides a bit more progressive pressure. I know people who pin the cuff so it won't articulate at all. Tomato Tomaato I have size 10 shell and you are welcome to borrow the white cuff I have and try it out.