Why is the Reflex so different

[bojans]

After my first set on the Reflex binding I was amazed how different it skied than my normal binding. What is that? I expected the ski to be much more responsive but I found more issue keeping the ski on edge than anything. Is more solid connection to the skii the difference or is there something else at play?

[skihacker]

When i switched to hard shells i was amazed at how twitchy the ski felt, slow the boat down a little, run your easier lines and give it 6 or 8 sets and you should get used to it.

[MrJones]

When I switched (which was long ago), it took a while. I remember noticing how much I attempted to use my ankles to control the ski in rubber bindings which didn't work in hardshells. You have to use the larger (and more stable) structure of you tibia to control the ski in hardshells.

[skialex]

I'm with @MrJones‌, I believe you learn to ski more with the knees than the ankles. I personally would not go back to rubber boots but I believe there is not right or wrong when it comes to binding preference.

[Waternut]

My problem was I visualized the ski at a much steeper angle in the water crossing the wakes because that's what it feels like in rubber boots. When you step into a hardshell, your body is now closer to the same angle as the ski and it feels like the ski is just riding flat.

 

Ankle movement really does play a large role though. I say that because I started using reflex with the thick liner. When that started falling apart, I switched to a heat moldable liner from fluid motion and I had to relearn how to ski. Same ski, setup, and bindings but the new liner was tighter and it took me a few sets just to relearn how to ski.

[GOODESkier]

I couldn't ski around the boat guides on my first pass........ I thought I was doomed and was going to send these things back! Glad I kept them and learned to really ski (almost). Could never go back or change hardshells at this point.

[mylemsky]

I went from FM's to Reflex an the biggest thing was fore aft, I thought I was going to go OTF. First set on Reflex, took me 2 times to get up, awesome at 6am. Only took a couple of sets to get used to. I could not go with the Reflex liner, Intuition much more comfortable and secure for me.

[BraceMaker]

Things I've pondered/played with.

 

Shell rigidity - rigid base vs. rigid cuff.

- check out fogman http://www.waterskimag.com/files/2012/06/boot-setup-225x149.jpg - slots in the shell let the rear shell move laterally while the front shell is confined to the ski.

"home" efforts in this have included slotting and grinding the shell to be more flexible.

 

- you cannot do that to reflex lowers as the shell needs to act rigid to keep the release consistent. FM did something different by using a sole plate - tension to the rear of the shell transfers down to the plate and to the front block... just a thought there.

 

- shimming - lots of articles there, myself not a ton of luck - I've found that if I crank down the strap over the instep, I can loosen up the top to not need shimming.

 

 

- Current experiments revolve around "force" molding the liners. most folks are "molding" liners by baking them then cramming their foot into the shell this accommodates your foot instead of "aligning" the foot.

 

I've been taking casts of my foot, baking the liners around the cast under vacuum then wearing them in the shell - this allows me to mold in heel grip, achilles contours etc. Holds promise. Biggest issue being the outside of the liner isn't confined to the shape of the shell. Next experiment includes making a 2 piece mold of the shell, so that I can bake liners over the cast and clamp it into the 2 piece mold, creating a liner which locks the lower foot, ST joint etc. Has arch support etc. built in, and heel grip.

 

Ideally creating an environment where the liner accommodates for tibial angle, shell shimming, and allows running the top cuff very loose w/ no fear of heel lift out of the shell.

[eleeski]

@BraceMaker‌ Just make the whole binding! If you go to that much work, it's only a couple more steps to layup the whole boot. You can control lots of variables in your layup. I'd love to see the results!

Eric

[eleeski]

Hardshells are different. I can't go back on my trick ski. One run and I am stuck.

Slalom I could go either way. I hated stiff boots. Gave up on them right away. I am OK with flexible shells. The comfort of hardshells is a strong incentive to use them. If you are struggling with the change, try a more flexible shell. Intuition liners rock.

Eric

[BraceMaker]

@eleeski - there's stuff on the horizon there as well. While you can control many variables you usually will destroy your model each time you make something. I'm more tempted to mold plastic boots than laminate - I'll leave that up to the professionals - @Brewski‌

 

Fact of it - with lamination you lack control over the exterior - since you have a positive mold and you are working on the outside you aren't controlling the shell's exterior shape, only the interior. As such things like release units cannot interface directly to the shell.

 

This is played out with every release system on the market, either from bolted/riveted heel ledges to work with silvretta, sole plates to work with FM/OB4, sole plates for adapting the boot to fit on a rail HO or plate - Goode. This is most likely due to the cost of making molds to make your own injection molded parts.

 

However - if you look at other sports with binding/boots - the "interface" parts are always integral - the lugs on DIN ski boots for instance are molded into the shell of the boot and standardized. And since the "mold" can incorporate areas that are thickened for rigidity or bellowed to flex (telemark) or molded in areas for joints to articulate - you can really get some neat product.

 

If we had a larger market this might be more a reality - the closest thing to it I feel like we are seeing is HO's system - however I think the two on a rail is ungainly and off-ski utility suffers.

[bojans]

Thanks for the thoughts and reassurance. Set 2 on the reflex should be tonight (in the wind stays down) I realized yesterday I had the binding over 1" too far forward, I can't get it to the exact spot it want it w/o cutting the plate but it is much closer.

[eleeski]

@bojans‌ Is the boot in a different place or did you want to move the boot? My old Reflex plates allowed me to move the toe horseshoe and the heel Silveretta. There was a huge amount of placement adjustability.

On the other hand, Lisa ended up with her Radar boots over an inch forward of her old rubber boots when she switched.

Certainly be willing and able to experiment with binding placement. Fix that plate.

Eric

[jwroblew]

Start with the buckles looser than you think and then set by set tighten them to were you like them. The initial looseness will give similar performance of your rubber boots.

[bojans]

@eleeski‌ I worked too fast and messed the measurement up in my head. That is a good point about moving the hoop and release, I keep that in mind.

 

@jwroblew‌ good idea, thanks.

 

No skiing tonight, forecast of 80 and sunny turned out to be 55, cloudy and high winds. Maybe Saturday

[Andre]

 

There use to be a thread explaining the difference of low and hi white-black cuffs on the Reflex.

Can't seem to find it.Anyone with a link or that can explain it again?

About to change my first generation Reflex (400) for a new set up.

 

[MattP]

@Andre‌ have you thought about switching to the OB4 ?

[Than_Bogan]

@MattP Did you post your OB4 review? (Not trying to be annoying; just worried I missed it because I am definitely interested in that system even though it would be very different setup for me.)

[MattP]

@Than_Bogan‌ No not yet. I just finished finals yesterday and I'm on a long weekend trip with free time so I'm planning to have it up by Monday/Tuesday.

[countymountie]

Picked up my Reflex yesterday. I can't wait to try it out. I've been on a double boot set up for the past 6 years and will be going back to a RTP so it might be interesting.

[OKSkier]

Thinking seriously about reflex - does anyone have any info about the different flexes that Reflex supposedly has? I've been told from a dealer they have tow or three different flexes

[PatM]

@countymountie‌ I just started skiing on the Reflex with the R-style rear plate. the rear plate acts like a RTP, but has a lot more stability across course. Came off double Goode hardshells. The transition has not been an issue.

[ral]

@OKSkier‌, there used to be the the black trick boot and the white slalom boot. Now there is the black boot, and the white boot. The black boot is a tad cheaper and used mostly by trick skiers. Used to be the trick boot (and, before that, the "only" boot as the white boot did not exist...).

 

Do not overthink, if you are slaloming, get the white, if tricking, the black, if you slalom, trick and jump...well, if you did that you would not be asking here which one...

[Deanoski]

The blk boot is used by most skiers but they cut the upper boot cuff down and remove the heel brake on the back of the lower shell. the white cuff is so high in the back it does not wrap aroundd the calf the same as the blk boot Just my 2 cents.

[Chuck_Dickey]

White boot has a lower upper cuff and has the nylon strap on the back. Some remove the strap so they can flex forward more. Strap is there to limit forward flex and help activate the release if the knee moves too for forward over the toe. I moved to this system recently because I fractured my tibia when I hyper compressed into the turn at 4 ball and my other system could not release in this situation.

 

Black boot is taller and used for Trick, many cut the cuff lower on the black boot to use for slalom. Strictly personal preference.