Graphite Senate or Alloy Senate? Need advice

[Joel Feder]

Hey guys, new here and looking for some advice. I'm just coming off a KD CR7 and am looking at the Graphite Senate and Alloy Senate. Having trouble deciding which to go with.

 

I ski at about 34 mph, open water. Never ski the course. So far I'm skiing the full rope, but might start playing with a little shorter rope once I get the hang of the new ski. Typically go out while the water is glass, but occasionally there's slight chop when I'm desperate and just can't wait for glass (skiing is better than not skiing, right?). Skiing behind a Harris 2000 LSi deck boat (which surprisingly has a decent wake for a deck boat). Absolutely loved my KD CR7, and it was pretty legit when it came out, but seems a lot has changed since then.

 

Thoughts? Advice? Kind of thinking I should go with the Alloy Senate but just don't want to be disappointed.

[Joel Feder]

I should've probably mentioned I'm currently 5'10" and about 185 lbs. I was skiing a 70" KD CR7. Based on the fact that I'm currently at the lighter end of the scale for me (lost some muscle over the winter) I'm figuring I should get a 69" Senate/Graphite Senate, unless you guys think otherwise?

[gregy]

If your skiing 34mph I think a 69" senate might be too big. If your actively cutting and turning and not just out for a sunday ride I think you would be better off on a 67" it is a wider ski. I'd go with a SenateC just cause I could. Either would be fine.

[Joel Feder]

Huh, I'm surprised you think I should go with the 67". I was looking at Radar's sizing chart, and it says 160-200 lbs for the 67", and 180-220 lbs for the 69". Seeing as I was skiing a 70" already with no issues at 34 mph, I figured I should stick with the 69" as once I put muscle back on I should be back around 200 (ish) lbs.

 

Can you tell me more about why you think the 69" will be too big? Appreciate your insight.

[Horton]

That 69" is just a really big ski by modern standards. At 34 mph it is a really big ski. The 67 would be about right and the 68" would be just a tiny bit over-sized but still logical. The 69" would be freaking sasquatch!

[Joel Feder]

Huh. That's so interesting (seeing as I didn't feel the 70" was huge). Though, I bought the 70" when I was overweight at 230 lbs. Now I'm down quite a bit (185, though I should be 200 by the end of the summer with muscle).

 

Radar suggests 69" for 180-200 and 67" for 160-200. I'm currently 185...

[wtrskior]

at 185 and 5-10 you should be on a 67 at 34mph. if you are over 190 the 68 might work better as Horton said.

 

69-70 are a big man skis and you aint a big man...

[oldjeep]

I'm 6ft and 180 - running on a 67" senate and it is plenty big even at 30mph in the course

[TustinTom]

I would agree with the above. I just bought the Senate Graphite, 69. I'm 6'4" and 240. It skis way beyond my capabilities. I also have a 71 Triumph for learning the course at slower speeds.

 

Regarding the Alloy vs. the Graphite, I would bet a good bit of money that the Alloy is plenty of ski. I feel the dampening of the Graphite is way above par in the small chop. I felt like I need the Graphite due to my weight. The purchase was my incentive to lose 30 lbs (started at 270). Either way you won't go wrong.

 

As you know, most of the guys here are hard core course skiers. They would do fine at 34 mph on either of these skis. For them, it's the warrior not the weapon. Want proof that I will NEVER see the ski's full ability: Check out Hortons review of the Graphite.

[Joel Feder]

You guys rock. Also, the comment about me not being a big man made me laugh, hilarious.

 

I agree, not sure I'll truly notice the difference between the alloy and graphite since I'm on open water just going hard for fun.

 

I think the reason I'm now debating 67" vs 69" is what happens if I gain my weight back and go above 200 lbs... At 185, I'm not convinced I won't be 210 lbs by next summer. Leading to the question of, if i get the 67" at 185 lbs, and get to be 210... will I have issues making me regret not getting the 69"? Remember, I was skiing a 70" KD CR7 for the last like eight years...

 

Sounds like I should go with the alloy... just debating the length now. Seriously, you guys are so helpful. Can't believe I didn't know about this site until last night.

[Joel Feder]

P.S. I'm not seeing that the Senate comes in 68", only 67" and 69"...

[oldjeep]

One comment I'll add is that I see you are skiing behind an I/O. I did used to have a bigger ski when I had my Bayliner entirely for wake survival. If you are only open water skiing, have you considered something like a Theory or P6 instead?

 

If you have a place that you can demo ski's that might make the decision a little easier.

[Joel Feder]

I have considered the Theory. Technically, the Theory is as wide as my KD CR7 was (I measured it). But from what I've read, and according to Radar, the Theory is best skied at a max speed of 32 mph. I typically ski at 34 mph, which seems to put me into the Senate.

 

I do have a place to test skis, but, I've not backed myself into a time table to buy this ski as I go on vacation at the lake in less than a week and have no time before that to go test. Poor planning and procrastination on my part...

 

The boat is an I/O, though, its wake is pretty nice (for an I/O). Obviously an inboard would be ideal, but it's the main family/activity boat, so, is what it is for now. Next boat will hopefully be an inboard as they've come a long way in terms of packaging since we bought the 2000 LSi.

[oldjeep]

I know what you mean about the family boat aspect. That is why we went with a crossover boat - Malibu vtx. All the seating of an i/o but a better wake and 3x the price ;)

[TustinTom]

Hi Joel:

 

I wouldn't get to hung up on the speed. Again, I think that is for guys in a course, where they can definitely separate out the skis based on speed (which equates to ability).

 

Check out what great skiing at 30mph on Radar P6 looks like (bigger than the Theory):

 

While the above "big ski" is used for training/timing/winter skiing, the form and technique is something I try to emulate when I ski - at whatever speed. I am so happy that Richard posted this, as there is not enough good footage of what slow/deliberate technique looks like.

 

I hear ya on wanting to ski faster.

 

 

[ricar116]

I am 6'5" 220 sking a 69" Graphite Senate open water mostly and portable course when the wind is good (rarely lately). I am a 15 off 29mph portable course skier. +1 on the Graphite Senate.

[andjules]

For what it's worth, Radar used to say 160-190lbs for the 67". Also, some short line skiers prefer to stay on the short side. So... if you're going to stay 185, I'd say 67", but I think (and it's possible I'm overlooking something about the new shape) you'd be pushing it as an open-water skier if you got back up towards 200.

 

Graphite vs Alloy is a tough one. On the one hand, if you're not in the course, it's probably not worth the premium $ for the graphite, and there are even some advantages to the alloy. On the other hand, the graphite will probably be less effort = longer runs, (slightly) less exhausting, more joy.

[gsm_peter]

I got the impression that a graphite is less forgiving and more tiering to ski on??

Graphite is stiffer and propagate vibrations more direct = more tiering.

A stiffer ski provides thougher more direct respons when starting to pull= harder on the body unless perfect positon.

Sorry if there are typos.

[ToddL]

Another comment about ski length and skiing style/level... When the skier is cutting across the wakes back and forth at high frequency (similar to the slalom course), the ski is probably moving at a substantially faster speed than the boat. Therefore it doesn't require as much surface area to keep the skier on top of the water. That same ski when the skier is cutting back and forth just a little less frequently is moving a little slower. Thus, more surface area is needed to achieve the same "feel." Since you said that you have not skied a course, you may not be crossing the wakes as intensely or as frequently as a course skier. Therefore, the longer ski is not seem as much of a hinderance as it might be to a course skier.

[A_B]

A 67" Senate has more surface area than a 68" standard ski and you can ride a 68" standard ski at 220 pounds.

[Joel Feder]

To answer a few of the above questions. I do cut across the wake hard and fast, I cut hard and frequent. I basically go back and forth over and over as if I'm on a course even though I'm not. Though, obviously, no buoys.

 

My logic with the 69 is A. at 185 lbs now, if or when I get back closer to 200, I'll be working harder with the 67". B. I was on a 70" KD CR7, so won't a 67 feel small while a 69" would feel closer to the size I'm good with now?

 

At this point on the graphite/alloy question, I'm leaning towards alloy. Also, seriously, you guys are super helpful. Really appreciate this discussion. Love that there's a community out there where people literally just sit and discuss this stuff.

[gregy]

If are feeling like you are working harder on a 67" senate its probably due to form issues. If you get back on the ski it will feel harder because you are "plowing" through water. If you are balance on the ski and using the wider part of the ski it will move through the water much easier. Other option would be to go with a Vapor Graphite or Alloy 68". Personally I would go with a Graphite of either (if you are serious enough that you are considering an inboard boat I think you will like the graphite better).

[Joe Williams]

Just another example. I'm 5'9 and 195 to 205 depending on the most recent Twinkie intake and I ski a 67 with no issue. I tried a 69 or 70 one time and thought I was standing in a canoe!!

[Joel Feder]

Hmm. Interesting stuff. Thanks guys.

[I5boi]

@Joel Feder‌ keep your current ski for right now and then add a higher performance ski when the time is right. I have a 2013 69 senate and like it but will be only using it from march to May then switch to something else once I'm skiing stronger (maybe a vapor)? I guess it is past may already so I'd better hurry or I'll wait till next year. You can never have too many sticks to choose from.

[Joel Feder]

I'd love to I5boi, but the whole reason I'm buying a ski is Delta Airlines destroyed my KD CR7 (don't worry, they cut me a check). Literally, destroyed. I was devasted. I had that ski tuned just to my preference and loved it. No complaints. So now I'm forced to buy something...

 

I'm guessing on open water and no course, the Vapor is simply more ski than I need. I'm not about to have a big head and say I'm the world's greatest skier.

 

So at this point, thinking it's a Senate. Probably going Alloy. Still debating whether to get 67" or 69" since my KD CR7 was a 70" and I had no issues.

[ForrestGump]

Really? After everyone recommended 67? You realize the Senate is over1/4 inch wider than the KD, giving you similar relative surface area to traditional width 69s? Forget the CR7. That's essentially a 16 year old design.

[gregy]

@shaneh had to laugh. Joel there's a bunch of people here that know what there talking about. Much more than myself. The 67" will work great, you'll be wondering why you stuck with that KD for all those years. The skis now are so much more refined and easier to ski. The Senate is a wider version of the Vapor. Its made to support more weight so you don't have to go longer. I skied on the Vapor and it was one of the easiest skis I ever be on. It just seems to make you ski better. The Senate is going to be even more stable and supportive.

 

I'm 6'2" 185lb I skied on a 67" Vapor Lithium at 15off 32 and 34 mph, it worked for me. The was at the recommendation of Brooks and KC Wilson which are Radar skiers and have been coaching folks at all levels for several years.

[Chris Rossi]

I'd go with a 67" graphite. The added cost will be felt through the liveliness of the ski after the turn. The 67" should be good for you even at 200 lbs. May be it will serve as motivation for you to not put on the weight!

[Joel Feder]

Thanks guys! Sounds like 67" is the way to go for me, hear it loud and clear. Appreciate your advice, honestly.

[crashman]

@chrisrossi that's funny you mention ski size as a wt management strategy because my sole motivation for maintaining my current weight is so I don't outgrow my 66" vice.

[Jordan]

@Joel Feder...listen to what @chrisrossi has to say - he is the man! He is both a world class skier, and a world class ski designer!!!!

[Joel Feder]

You guys are great, and I'm totally a @chrisrossi‌ fan. I'll be getting a 67" based on your advice. On the fence regarding alloy or graphite, but I'm sure either will be just fine for me.

[Joel Feder]

Just wanted to thank you all again. I bought a 67" Senate Graphite based on your advice and can't wait to get on it this weekend and next week.

 

P.S. When I saw the 69" in person I had to agree. It really did appear massive.

[mbabiash]

I have a senate graphite 69 inch on ski it again if any one is interested.

I love the ski! I bought it to work on my posture at 30 and 32 mph. It worked so well that I'm finally working on 28 off at 34.

Matt

http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?topic=Search&category=Slalom&postid=28621