Video of Miller and Rogers. Is this more like the "Zapruder film" or the "Patterson–Gimlin film"?

[Horton]

I really do not want to post this but like a bandage you have to take off.... Lets get it over with or someone else will when they find it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV0ZiueQnTE&feature=youtu.be

 

 

For the folks in Minnesota:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterson%E2%80%93Gimlin_film

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapruder_film

[eleeski]

I think I saw the flashy light from a MIB neuralizer - but only on Dave Miller's run!

[Horton]

@eleeski‌ I sort of want to give you a panda but at this point I think you might be right.

 

By the way Eric, did you know what the "Patterson–Gimlin_film" was without looking it up?

[Zman]

Yes, multiple flashes during Miller's run at the 1:07 to 1:08 mark. Two flashes of the headlights as Miller heads into 3 ball. Rodgers got a flashes heading to 5 ball. Kinda looks like someone was hitting their key fob to lock doors on a car. Odd timing as both skiers would have looked in that direction coming out of 2 and 4 ball.

[EricKelley]

As a senior judge, reride? Nahhh!

[A_B]

The camera flashes seem to be from behind after the turn. The grassy knoll flashes seem pretty out of place.

He obviously saw them. I not sure that I notice anything when I'm skiing.

 

Jeff didn't look particularly dialed in on either pass though. Not that it matters.

[RazorRoss3]

Wow. All I can say with certainty is that those two are amazing athletes showing us some amazing skiing.

 

As an opinion I would say that my eyes registered more flashing and distractions on Millers passes than Ridgers. Now that is just flashes caught by the camera abd others could exist.

 

Final piece is that I have a question about the brightness off flashing cameras vs the brightness of flash photography. I would think unless they had their brights on with some serious LED lights.

 

All together I would have a hard time granting a re ride if the debate is "were his distractions noticeably worse than Millers" if the question is was their a problem caused by something out of the skiers control ie duck in the course, significant roll back, flashing lights, lots of glare, etc then I'm sure that every skier from the elite 8 onward could have gotten a re ride.

[Wish]

I think each post needs to start with...my opinion with this particular video is... So from this video I gotta agree with @Zman. Timing of the flashing car lights on the grassy knoll did seem timed for both. Anyone know if a car could sit over in that area? Waiting for someone to post a schematic timeline map of the crime. Pot stirred...

[wtrskior]

Jeff looked out of it at 2 IMO. No way he way running that pass. Camera flashes seemed more distracting.

 

Seems like there were series of unfortunate events, a borderline reride request, an unprecedented granting of the request and protesting at the event; which IMO was the most significant and damaging of all.

 

 

Mistakes happen in sports judging. Rule out cheating and Deal with it like semi pros..

 

Twins Joe Mauer Robbed Of A Fair Ball:

[ForrestGump]

My sources are talking in whispered voices about a conspiracy. It would seem that @horton and his three legged cat flew into Texas, dressed in gilly suits so they could sneak onto the property clandestinely, hid in the grass five feet apart, and ssimultaneously turned on and off two flashlights.

[E_T]

At the end of the day does any of this even matter? ANDY won and no one was going to beat him that night. 2 or 3rd or 4th are still losers to THE GOAT

[Chef23]

What I want to know is how did Miller hang on after 1 ball at 38 and make the rest of the pass look easy.

[TylerR]

My oppinion is that @Horton‌ @MattP‌ and @E_T‌ flew in, dressed up in women's clothes, and using 2 work lights a generator and a strobe light caused Jeff to fall so there would be major controversy. I would also state that without evidence directly contradicting me I will be posting this theory everywhere that I can from now until the end of time. Just like we all know that Kennedy was really killed by a guy from the CIA with a magic bullet shot from the grassy knoll.

 

 

 

/scarcasm

[wtrskior]

looked like someone was opening their car doors on Jeff's 39 out of 3 ball, as it was the hazard lights that flashed, twice coming out of 4 ball, not headlights.

 

 

[Horton]

@ShaneH‌ Clio the cat is in cat heaven.

[jcamp]

The same flashing lights that Jeff presumably got a reride for (1:33) flashed on Millers 3 ball (1:07). Crazy camera flashes for both guys throughout, but that's part of what makes watching this event in person so cool.

 

I agree with @zman, looks like someone hitting their key fob.

[skidawg]

As we all know, web traffic has been dead slow all summer and @Horton has been feeling the heat from his sponsorship. This was all a genius plan from the intergalactic leader himself to boost visits. Well played Horton, well played. How did you get @ShaneH to fly down just to cause a huge controversy.

[drewski32]

looked to me like rodgers was already screwed out of 2 ball. The headlights didn't flash until he was out of 4 headed to 5. Yes, miller had camera flashes but I would think the headlights would be more intense. Either way, rodgers looked like he was out of the pass already

[A_B]

I thought it was the hot chick in the bikini going into 3 ball....

[Horton]

@skidawg‌ correction: traffic is not gone down. there are some things I will not joke about & yes @ShaneH‌ is a master of espionage

 

[webbdawg99]

It's not clear from that photo @ob. However, watching the video, it's pretty easy to see flashing headlights as Dave is going into 3 ball

[jdarwin]

In the end, the losers were those of us who came to see the show. 99.8% of the people in attendance and 99.9% of the general water skiing public couldn't care less about the politics, egos and misapplication of the rules.

[skidawg]

If you have seen Rodgers ski at all....He is never out of a pass if he can get outside 1,3,5!

[9400]

What skidawg said..... I had to chuckle at "Rodgers was out of it at 2 ball"

[Ghibli]

Never? Thinking that might be a little romantic.....

[Chad_Scott]

Change the theme song for the big dawg from "Who let the dawgs out" to " Blinded by the light." It does appear after two ball he was in a fight to the finish as we have all experienced at one time or another. I am not sure two little head light flashes, that also occurred for Miller, was the reason for the missed pass. His gate and one ball couldn't have been any better in my opinion. Crushed and buckled at 2 ball and the fight was on against the CC200. Everyone had something going on during the night finals most just sucked it up and accepted the result. Everyone that made the finals skied their a**es off to get to the final 16. Time to suck it up and move on. Always tough to previal at the Big Dawg Takes a lot of skill and a little bit of luck as well. Good skiing to everyone that made the finals, gonna go practice so I can ski in the dark (hopefully) next year.

[David Miller]

Good Words Chad

[kstateskier]

Hold on just a second...

 

@Chad_Scott‌ @Dave Miller you guys are being awfully hard on Jeff for not knowing it was an unwritten rule to ask for a re-ride claiming the other Big Dawgs would all laugh at you. And yet Dave asked for a warmup pass before his 41 attempt? Please don't take this the wrong way but both of you are kind of acting like "suck it up and do xyz" and yet here Dave is asking for a warmup pass? Why not the same treatment for Dave? "Suck it up Dave you're a BIG DAWG go run 41 cold off the dock!?" I for one think Dave SHOULD have been granted a warmup pass after that length of a delay by no fault of his own. But by the same token Dave could have been granted a warmup pass, Jeff has every right to be granted a reride.

 

Personally I think the only beef anyone should have here is the length at which the officials took to continue the event. That in itself is the tragedy.

[Skihack]

Waterskiing is an awesome sport . :)

[tbrenchley]

Ok let's be honest Jeff may or may not have run that pass without the distraction of somebody on the shoreline unlocking their car but he didn't run it and after watching the video there is no way I could argue that the re-ride was a correct call. That was a gift and a 2 ball bailout for Jeff. But he had every right to ask for a re-ride (according to the "written" rules) and the judges had every right to say yes if they felt it was an unfair disadvantage. It was most likely the wrong call but it was the call nonetheless and I'm not here to second guess or call out the judges because I have the advantage of watching it after the fact. They made the call they felt was right at the time. I'm glad that there was a protest and passionate skiers voicing their opinions but just like in a courtroom you object, the judge sustains or overrules the objection and you move on. The show MUST go on!!!

 

And just as a side note @kstateskier‌ asking for a re-ride and asking for a warmup pass are two completely different things. He did suck it up and he did ski but skiing 39, watching your opponent fall, skiing back to the dock without even attempting 41 because apparently that's an "unwritten" rule that is in force, having it out over the re-ride call and then waiting for Jeff to ski another 39 and then go and take a crack at 41 off cold? That is not the same thing. I just wish @David Miller‌ would have asked for a re-ride on his 41 off for a "distraction" of some kind to keep it really interesting haha

[kstateskier]

@tbrenchley‌ so unwritten "suck it up" rules only apply to rerides? Got it ;)

 

Like I said I think Miller deserved a warmup pass, but the "suck it up" and be a Big Dawg mentality says sometimes you catch unlucky breaks and blah blah blah. See the issue here?

[Chad_Scott]

@kstateskier Pretty sure there was nothing in my post that was derogatory towards Jeff. My opinion is that this entire incident it is over suck it up and move on. Everyone deals with different issues during the night finals. No doubt it was a controversial ending to what historically has been a great event with no issues. For the record, Jeff and I are friends and have been for a long time. Certainly friends don't always agree with the each others position. He is one hell of a skier and a has been for years. So i am not sure where in my post I was hard on him. I hope to ski well enough to join in on the Night finals next year Not much fun sitting on the sidelines.

 

The video is clear everyone had to deal with flashes from cameras and flashes from vehicle headlights. Personally when I have skied in the finals, I found it pretty cool that people were taking photos of the guys skiing at night.

 

I think everyone involved can learn from this and make the event better next year!!!!

 

A bad call or decision during the superbowl doesn't prevent teams from playing again or people from watching. Suit up another day!!!!

[klindy]

For what it's worth, if you're playing by the rule book, since there was a delay of over 10 minutes they both should have been given a warm up pass as an option of they wanted it.

[fizer]

It takes a lot to drive this lurker to post...

 

@skimech‌ - for you to imply that you have any idea what Jeff is "all about" is almost as clueless and offensive as you saying he was definitively "finished after the two ball". You clearly don't know Jeff and you clearly haven't seen him ski much.

 

From my perspective, Jeff is all about his family, his friends, his family business, etc. Even making time to ski every now and then is actually petty far down the list of priorities. Regardless of your perception of what happened Saturday night, doing something unfair for the sake of winning a Big Dawg event is definitely not what Jeff is "all about."

 

As far as Big Dawg not being a "pro event": Is there not money on the line? If so, by definition is it not then a "pro event"? I understand it is not a World Cup event, or an elite points event - but it is professional event with money on the line. It is not just a ski show for the spectators like some of you are trying to claim.

 

Should Jeff have gotten the re-ride? Maybe not. Should Jeff be getting all of this crap for asking for the re-ride? Definitely not (in my opinion). Should Jeff be blamed for the delay? Absolutely not. And without the massive delay, all of this would be about 1/50th the news that it has become.

 

It seems that a lot of the readers and posters here are just going along with the assertion from a couple of Big Dawg skiers (and some Big Dawg wanna-bes) that no one has ever asked for a re-ride in a Big Dawg event. I can perhaps believe that no re-ride has ever been GRANTED, but I very seriously doubt that a re-ride has never been REQUESTED at a Big Dawg event. I'm not a judge, but I don't think there is a record kept of requested re-rides. I am quite sure those not directly involved would be unaware of most unsuccessful re-ride requests. With this in mind, I don't think it is possible for anyone to definitively say that a re-ride has never been REQUESTED in a Big Dawg event. So, all of the talk about Jeff being the first ever to ask for a re-ride and breaking some non-existent "code" is just a bunch of uninformed assumptions and chatter from people that want to be in the middle of everything and aren't capable of keeping their mouth shut (I have 1 person in mind and I hope you know that I am talking about you - see you at our tournament tomorrow night).

 

Most importantly, to keep in in perspective: Jeff did not break an actual rule of any kind - and there is a lot of speculation about other Big Dawg skiers out there doing just that (intentionally and systematically). Jeff's name will never come up in any of those conversations because everyone in the waterski world knows he is way above all of that. For Jeff's name to be tarnished in any way over this re-ride would be an absolute travesty - especially when most of us believe that some of the Big Dawgs that are leading these discussions are intentionally breaking rules and gaming the system. Some Big Dawg skiers think other Big Dawg skiers are gaming the system (and they have said so directly to me), yet these same people seem to be more upset about this one re-ride that is well within the rules. Any of you "Big Dawgs" that are too scared to publicly call out the people you think are taking PEDs but are happy to publicly call out Jeff are real "wussies" (to meet BOS standards) and need to re-evaluate your personal values.

 

Graham Fizer

 

 

 

 

 

[tbrenchley]

I'm pretty sure that the point that was being made on here by some bd's was not that a re-ride was NEVER requested in the history of the Big Dawg @fizer‌ but that it was never requested for "light distractions" in an event that is taking place in the dark. I could be wrong but I have yet to read anywhere what you claimed in your post.

[fizer]

@OB - I did not call you out publicly out of respect for you and because I don't generally feel the need to express my personal opinions to the waterski masses (today being an exception). I'd be a wuss if I didn't say something to you tomorrow night, man to man - there's a huge difference.

 

I agree with a lot of what you have said. And like I said, I'll tell you when I see you how I feel about some of the places I think you have gone overboard.

 

I hope we can each say our piece, move on and have some good ski time together in the future.

[Klundell]

@fizer I understand you defending your guy but throwing out vague accusations at unnamed individuals is just weak. Anyone attacking Jeff personally is an idiot but I haven't seen much of that. Many people didn't like his decision to ask for the re-ride but that's ok for us to have differences of opinions on that. The thing with unwritten rules is sometimes they get broken and the only penalty is the being called out on it. I don't think you can blame people for being upset at what they see as an injustice.

[theinvisiblesoul]

either way...second is the first looser. doesn't matter....

[Edbrazil]

 

Well, at least no one has been aiming laser pointers at driver or skier...yet.

Serious problem and federal crime for people doing at around airports. Plenty

of information if you Google it.

Hope I'm not giving anyone ideas.

Back in engineering school 40+ years ago, with an early laser, we would mess around

shining the red dot on the snow in front of people walking by. Some serious freakouts

by people who must have thought that aliens were coming.

[fizer]

@Klundell I wasn't accusing anyone of anything other than talking too much or having strange priorities of what is most upsetting. I don't think I made any real "accusations." To do so certainly wasn't my intention.

 

Agree that its fine for everyone to have different opinions on the re-ride. I don't think I really shared my opinion about the situation on the water, just my opinions about the aftermath and other things that may deserve some thoughts in order to keep what happened in perspective.

[ToddL]

I just watched the video, a few times. Clearly there are camera flashes on all passes.

 

In my opinion, the small white light flashing above the stadium lights during Dave Miller's 39 pass is most likely a radio tower strobe on the horizon. It is flashing at a consistent pace which matches tower strobes around here. It is too high to be much else. That pass was the only one that was zoomed out enough to see the stadium lights. Thus, it is difficult to confirm that the small white flashing light was there the whole time.

 

The vehicle lights during Jeff Rodgers' 39 was clearly the parking/amber lights of a vehicle in my opinion. The pattern of two flashes, pause, two more flashes is similar to many vehicles' action upon a lock or unlock command. Possibly it was on a car on the street side of the bridge entrance. There is a sufficient path to drive a car right up to and then to the right (lake 2 side) of the bridge so as to not block the bridge path. The vehicle has reflectors on it which can be seen as early as 1:31 time stamp.

 

The flashes totally could have been an ignorant, poorly-timed, innocent act by a spectator. We may never know. Can you imagine if you were the one who pushed the lock button on your key fob before looking at the lake to see what was happening at that moment? Given the drama, would you step forward and take ownership of that action?

[Horton]

The level of civility as not what I had hoped for but I was not very surprised either. I am pretty sure that everyone who could be insulted or slandered has been insulted or slandered.

 

You guys can continue to talk about the event all you but if I think it is unfriendly I am going to suspend your account for a few days.

[DavidP]

Folks, what this video fails to show is Jeff waiving an arm and pointing to the headlights while he was preparing to pull out for his gate on his 39 pass.

[Ilivetoski]

Camera flash- it is a FLASH. The head lights stayed on. There is a difference in a quick light and a beaming glare on the water that will not go away. Every day at my lake at about 7:00 (give or take 20 mins) there is a huge glare coming into 1,3,5. You cant see the ball. I have to scrap out 28 by taking massive turns on my offside. The point is, people keep saying "the cameras are cool! yes distracting but that is what makes the event so special". Its not a glare that is obstructing your vision of the ball/ obstructing the boat drivers path.

 

Also- I think it is funny that everyone who keeps saying "its over. Its in the past move on im done with this" keep commenting.

[tbrenchley]

What "beaming glare" are you referring to @Ilivetoski‌ ? I saw the parking lights flash when someone locked/unlocked their doors but there is no evidence of anyone with their headlights on as was originally speculated to be the issue.

[Drago]

@DavidP‌ . Then he should have read the rule book and thrown the handle

[jipster43]

From my perspective the only people with an accurate vantage to determine if the distraction merited a re-ride or not are Jeff and the driver. Everyone else is trying to call gates from the starting dock.

[jipster43]

I didn't put that quite right. What I should have said is it would be difficult to impossible to say just what level of distraction the lights were unless you had Jeff's or the driver's vantage point. There's nothing wrong with calling gates from the starting dock, but it may not be accurate.

[Milford]

I agree with @Drago. Of course hindsight is always 20/20, but if we all know the rules, it might help eliminate this type of situation. Correct me if I am wrong, but the rule book states that a skier can throw the handle prior to entering the course, if there is a problem. From what people are saying, it sounds like Jeff was waiving his arm and pointing, prior to entering the course. The right thing to do would be to throw the handle and have the boat come back and get you. I remember this happening a few years ago at the night finals, where a skier noticed a gate buoy was not lit up. That skier threw the handle and allowed the problem to be addressed. All was well.

 

I ski with an double hardshell binding set up that allows me to release my back binding from the ski. The theory behind my design is that leaving both feet in during deep water start puts a lot more pressure on the lower back. By allowing my back binding to release off the ski it takes load off the back. Occasionally, I have difficulty getting the back binding to snap in after the deep water start. On short set up lakes, where I can't get the binding to snap in quick enought, I rely on this rule and throw the handle, prior to entering the course. I believe this rule was put in place to create a safe ski environment and give the skier an option to make a good decision and ski safe.

 

Night finals pose unique challenges and it becomes important to know the rules. At the level all of these finalist are skiing at, I would think that most of them have run tournaments and are chief officials at many of them.

 

Ok - so I have hit my post quota for the year. Now back to work...

 

Jeff Milford

[MAD11]

@ob @fizer went 171 on an easy 3/4 cut at nationals. Bet he may have a 200 in him when he gets going. He hasn't been back jumping very long. Get out there and help him dial in that double cut once you guys get finished with ur chat.

 

I'm trying to look at the bright side of things now that I'm getting old. We made way too much food during the BD finals and the delay gave us the opportunity to feed the crowd a bit. I hate taking leftovers home. Ready for this conversation to be over. Lots of good guys in the middle of a crappy deal. Move on please. Congrats to Andy.

 

Next year for the finals we will be cooking again at the RV. Come get some. I'll have Filet waiting for @skidawg if he gets the win.