More than just Stacked

[Chef23]

I agree about the picture of Nate. Someone posted another picture of him in this thread where he has less lean than I would expect. I am not advocating that less lean is better because I don't think that way but it is surprising. I am going to have to look at some more video of him.

[Horton]

@Chef23‌ this should be a separate thread but if you have enough speed there is no reason to lean more

[SkiJay]

Really, @Horton, a duck? All of these photos are incapable of capturing a very dynamic move through the wakes. If each of these photos were accompanied by a second photo at the second wake, we'd be able to tell how quickly their ski is moving past their COM into the edge change. The picture of Nate with his tip buried in the prop wash at 41 off is only possible if he is firing his ski past the handle at that point at a rate rarely caught in a photo. And what might be more important than the stack is arriving at the first wake ahead of the ski in preparation for a massive dig that fires the ski and COM forward through the most productive work zone.

[swerveit]

thought id through in a different shot from another angle.

 

[Chef23]

@Horton I agree with you about if you have enough speed there is no need to lean more. I think most skiers struggling to run passes up to 32 off could generally have a better stack and more lean. I think this is very true for skiers working on 15 and 22 off.

[tsixam]

This is a very interesting discussion!

I have been stuggeling with stacked and COM for years but never done any dry training. Who of you practise land training and what are you doing?

Tsixam

[Horton]

@Chef23‌ yes yes it is a problem that there are all skill sets here when we talk technique.

[ForrestGump]

@AB If you find yourself having to make a motion to have counter at the apex, it's because you've quit moving your inside hip, shoulder, and handle out. if you really watch the elite skiers, they're not pulling their shoulder back approaching the apex. That counter is building in their hips and shoulders all the way from centerline.

[Horton]

@ShaneH‌ every once in a while you say something wise

[ForrestGump]

Even an unlucky dog digs up a bone every once in a while.

[Ed_Johnson]

Shane is correct in the fact the counter is built with hips and not the shoulders...To many skiers try to counter just by moving the shoulders back and actually throw more weight to the back of the ski, Not Good !!!

 

Remember that where the hips go the shoulders will follow !!!

 

 

[9400]

The 3 most forward skiers I can think of would be David Miller, Greg Badal and Thomas Degaspri. Does anybody have a picture of those guys behind the boat. Been playing with this a little and have to convince myself to try to go out the front.

[gregy]

@horton I watch some of your videos, I think your focusing on the wrong thing here. I believe your problem is from you onside turn starting at your gate turn.

 

At your gate you rock back on the ski which causes you to drift in, as you drift in you loose connection which hinders you from getting you COM forward early and you loose as MB says "The best time to accelerate is from the Apex of the turn (widest point)"

 

I think something similar is happening on the you onside turns. I think you getting back just a little which allows the ski to drift down course and delay the turn. You loose connection handle comes up high. I looked at Freddie Winter, Nate, skidawg, Chet. There really getting forward out of the apex and getting the acceleration started early. The reaction to this looks to be that they don't overload which Marcos was talking about causing for of a feel of OTF. You watch some of these guys, MB too, they stay really connected and the rope is right there at the hip ready to accelerate at transition out of the turn.

 

What were your thoughts about your onside? I think if you fix it you'll be able to be in a more forward position at the wakes. Maybe more of what Shane was saying about building the counter so you'll end up more on front of the ski.

[Horton]

@gregy‌ if you are suggesting I need to be more forward approaching & exiting the ball on both sides I agree and am working on it.

[Horton]

I use myself as an example for this thread. what I really want to get out was two things. very very few of us are far enough forward. most of us don't know how to get for further forward.

[ForrestGump]

Also, it's a question of perspective. When viewed from the boat, the farther a skier lets the ski roll out and maintain it's direction outbound, the more the visual perspective is that of moving forward in relation to the centerline of the ski.

[MrJones]

This has been a very enjoyable thread. Likely because it is something I have decided I must change in my own skiing. Talking with Andy about his new skis at Nationals he mentioned how the skis are (now) designed for everything to be constantly moving forward. When watching the other BD skiers at Nats, my wife and I were discussing how Badal and Dave were both very forward over their skis in the turn and behind the boat. Growing up a lefty, Jeff Rodgers and Lucky fan I always though this looked "wrong". With today's technology it's not. While what they do looks different, I can't think of two guys who run 39 more consistently regardless of conditions.

 

I am suffering from some of the same issues as Horton. I am usually fairly "stacked", but my stack is "back". I don't usually move much on the ski, but I do not engage the forebody until very late in the turn. Way too late when you look at the guys who consistently run 39, or in Nate's case 41. (Schnitz had an article about early tip engagement some time back BTW) My weight bias is on my back foot and trailing shoulder from the 2nd wake out into both sides. That's not gonna cut it. I am officially giving up on changing skis to try and find the magic one that works for this. I have to fix myself or accept being stuck at occasionally running 39.

 

Matt was correct about it being hard to take too much from one still frame of skiing. Your position through the turn can make it much easier to control the load through the wakes which makes it easier to move over the ski in the pre turn which makes your position through the turn better...... If one of those keys is way out of whack, it may make "fixing" the next position impossible. This is where a skilled coach watching you (somewhat consistently) comes in. Perception is not reality, especially when changing major things in you form.

 

Everybody will likely have different things to change to move them towards what works best. I am determined to makes some changes. I am very sure that there will be frustrations, set backs, and the desire to take short cuts. It's a journey....

[tsixam]

@Horton Exactly. That’s why I was asking about land exercises

Tsixam

 

[JAS]

@Horton‌ what do you think about keeping shoulders more level. My guess is that if you measured the other skiers posted, most would have less angulation. This is one of the few ways to move com forward in a controlled fashion

[skibumsam]

@gregy @Horton

When you refer to getting most forward movement during the apex of the turn is it acceptable or are you losing anything if you initiate your turn farther back on the ski? I do not mean standing on the back of the ski, but rather re-setting your weight forward as you are entering the turn.

 

When I alpine slalom ski in the winter that technique can be seen in pro racers who are trying to speed up their transition or get more snap out of their ski

[gregy]

@skibumsam Jamie Beauchesne says the water ski turn is exactly like a snow ski turn. He's one of the smoothest water skiers.

 

 

[skibumsam]

@gregy I will have to look up some video on him. I have been snow skiing much longer than water skiing and it might help to start making more connections between the two.

[Horton]

@skibumsam‌ I think you misunderstood me. I want to be more forward from edge change to apex. And from apex to the wakes. Never do i want to jump forward at any point.

[skibumsam]

@Horton Oops....I was thinking you were looking to make a weight change somewhere. Its more of an impovement on an already established position?

[Horton]

@skibumsam‌ 2 things

I am in a strong stack but I am not near as forward as I want.

 

Most skiers that run 35 and shorter are pretty stacked. Very few are as far forward as they should be.

[ToddL]

@Horton, I see what you mean... very far forward.

 

[ozski]

Here is a pretty simple exercise you can do on the dock - Tie a short rope and handle around a pole and assume the stacked position. Try shifting the load between forward and trailing arm and you should feel your COM shifting backwards and forwards. Could it be that simple?

[A_B]

There is a subtle transfer of load to the trailing arm/hand as it keeps the handle in to your waist and the lead hand merely stays on the handle for balance and direction. If you maintain load on the lead hand (right hand going into one) the boat will pull you onto a turn edge and narrow. I find it easier to feel this width when going through the gates and one ball, after that, I don't know what happens. Those orange buoys send brain spam.

[OldboyII]

I am just beginner, therefore can not advise anything.

But I have a weird idea brought from H. Harb alpine ski camp.

The task to move COM more toward to front of the skis can be done in two ways:

1 - by moving body forward

2 - by moving legs back keeping good body position (as if you are kicking boots back)

 

Either way works, but second way works better (at least for me) because stance does not change and all angles (heeps, knees) remain the same.

Sorry boys for silly idea and poor english )

And hello from cold Russia.

[jimbrake]

@OldboyII‌ - I've worked on that on snow, too, but that is typically applied to your outside ski/boot/leg, so might be tougher to accomplish with both feet fixed to one ski. Interesting thought though and worth experimenting with.

 

 

[Lieutenant Dan]

Great discussion which I have come to very late. Just a comment about Nate Smith's centerline "stack". I just looked at some video I had of him that I took from inside the boat a couple of years ago. Even at 38 off he is just so quick that he has completed his acceleration / lean way before the center of the wakes and is changing edges already. And its that way on both sides. Incredible.

[ToddL]

Here's a drill. Grab the rope attached to the pylon and stand in the back corner of the boat as if in slalom position as if the ski was pointed at the pylon with a little lean away from the pylon. You should be able to stand there in place in that back corner. Now without changing anything else, move your hips just a little bit towards the other back corner of the boat. Your body should no longer be able to stay in place, but rather start to swing (or fall) in the directions you moved your hips.

 

For a brand new slalom beginner, they aren't crossing the wakes with any intensity, so there ski is often pointed down course more than across. However, with this drill, they can feel the efficiency of using the hips to drive momentum in the desired direction of travel.

 

I guess you could replicate this drill with a starting stance with a more cross course orientation.

 

The key is that when you are leaning back away from the pylon you are in a static position. when you move some of your body in the direction you want to go, you will start to swing that way. This works with poor posture, too. Lean your head and shoulders and you will move - into an out the front posture, but you will move. Feeling the action of moving the hips and not the head and shoulders is the more efficient (and safe) COM movement.

 

I guess you could use a handle tied to a pole on land for this too.

 

I think this video comes up from time to time... But clearly Neilly Ross subscribes to the camp of "move the hips where you want to go":

[mwetskier]

daddy drew subscribes to the camp of ' the hips lead every move ' and daughter neilly listens.

[Chef23]

If I tried to get my body into the position Neilly does it would break in half.

[mopowpow]

@OldboyII‌, that is an interesting point. I'm also a follower of Harald Harb, I'll think about it next time I ski.