beginner help

[skibumsam]

My name is sam. I am a 16 yr old from MN. I am new to this site and relatively new to waterskiing as well. I started about three years ago and quickly progressed to slalom, but now have seemed to hit a dead end. Most of my skiing is in open water but I am very aware of proper course technique and would like to progress to being a regular course skiier.I have received a decent amount of coaching this year from my uncle and cousins who pull me the most (the video was taken behind their boat) although they are primarily open water skiiers too so looking for pointers from a course skiiers perspective. 

This is what I know so far:

-I am aware of the stack position (hips forward, arms the the vest, shoulders back and level, etc.) Though seen to have trouble forcing myself into this position through the wake.

-I have no speed into my turn and bite the ski in too aggressively making it hard to do a one handed turn and causing my skiing to be very inconsistent day-to-day.

-what I visualize myself doing behind the boat is very different from reality.

-the video included is me behind my uncles boat at 32mph 15off. Skiing on 67in radar vice (open water).

*sorry to elaborate! Just looking for pointers from every level.

 

Here is the link for the video. Feel free to tear my form apart. Really looking for help so wouldn't care if you told me everything was wrong! http://youtu.be/TamfFWd4lvw

[LeonL]

Well, you need to have your videographer zoom a lot more. It's hard to see any detail, however you will need to get much wider on each pull to get around standard buoy width.

[skibumsam]

@LeonL I apologize for the poor video. Working on getting a better camera to attach to my boat for more detailed footage. As to width, I just skiied a course for my first time earlier this week and found that out myself! I didn't realize I needed to get so far out before.

[ToddL]

@skibumsam, Welcome! I wish we has BOS when I was 16 and just learning how to cut hard across the wakes.

 

It is a little difficult to see much in the video. However, as you found out, the slalom course requires a lot more width. Did you slow the boat down? Many adult men can easily learn the course at 28mph. The key is to generate your own speed from the finish of the turn through the wakes such that you can edge change with momentum that takes you wide and early to the buoy. As you start to generate that cross course momentum, you will start to feel that the ski can be on the inside (turning) edge but still moving outward. You will begin to feel the ski initiate and apex the turn on its own.

 

As far as form on the ski, most all of us need our hips more forward including you. Do this: Once you are up, move to just outside the left wake. Stand up as tall as possible, chest proud. Then, try to cover your front foot toes with your hips. You should feel on top of the ski as opposed to leaning away from the boat's pull.

 

Now without changing anything else, simply point (rotate) your hips to the left to about 11 o'clock (straight ahead being noon). As your ski moves outbound, you can lean away just a bit, but do not change you "tall, hips-forward" body position. If you did this correctly, you will be wider than ever before with much less effort and more speed. Rise up out of the lean and glide parallel to the boat's path while maintaining (or regaining) your tall, hips-forward glide. As your ski's speed starts to slow to match the boat's speed, simply rotate/point your hips to 2 o'clock, while staying tall. Don't rear back, just ride the leverage that comes from the hip rotation. This should send you across the wakes with more speed, less load, and more efficiency.

 

The above is a great way to describe a well performed gate pullout and turn in. Every time you ski, do this to start your swerving.

 

The basic skill I wish I had learned from the very beginning is that "the hips lead the body to where you want to go". The sooner you can get that burned into your muscle memory, the faster you will progress.

 

 

[skibumsam]

@ToddL Thanks for the comments/tips! I slowed the boat down but not nearly enough. hoping to get another shot at the course next week as I felt completely lost last time. Will also try the more efficient pull out. I was definately struggling to get enough width and glide before the gates last time.

[Niles Taylor]

@ToddL I really like the way you described skiing posture for the gate setup. I think that will really help me as I try to get more consistent in the course.

[6balls]

Where in MN, Sam?

[skibumsam]

@6balls Saint Cloud although I spend a lot of time up around Hackensack/Walker

[Drago]

@skibumsam‌ that's good stuff as you do what @ToddL‌ describes and add the width, you will have glide and be able to let go with one hand

[skibumsam]

@Drago @ToddL yes very helpful tips! I am going to try them out tonight in open water and hopefully get some more video. One more question though---should I be using the hip rotation that ToddL described to initiate all my turns and if I am forward enough will that bring my ski around fast enough? I have gotten in the bad habit of turning with my whole body to get my ski around faster which probably contributes to my one handed turn problem.

[wtrskior]

@skibumsam these vids from @Sethski‌ helped me. IMO don't even think about turns at this point, take a look at the thread regarding "killer turns not necessary". You need to work on your leverage/cutting and overall body position. The ski will turn if its on edge, no need to even think about it at this point.

 

 

[skibumsam]

@wtrskior thanks for the tips! Can't tell you how many times I've been told not to think about the turns but when I get behind the boat I lose patience and stand on the back of my ski to get it to come around fast. The whips drill is very similar to the direction drill by fluid motion I've been attempting

[Than_Bogan]

@skibumsam I totally agree with the overall advice in this thread. Also note that standing on the back of the ski will actually *not* cause it to come around fast. In fact, with almost none of the ski in the water, you have nothing to resist with and will simply continue downcourse. Skis turn fast by being on their edge, not their tail.

 

You probably already know that, but the more you convince your subconscience, the better!

[skibumsam]

@Than_Bogan‌ All the advice has been EXTREMELY helpful and looking forward to my next ski day so I can try it all out. So glad I found this forum too! I feel my level of skiing is going to catapult forward with all the coaching I get from you guys!

 

And I have known for a while not to stand on the back of my ski but did not realize until I recently skiied a course how slow those turns really are. Still working on convincing my subconscience though.

[ToddL]

@gregy shared this video with me a while back. It addresses a habit of loading the tip coming into a turn and then having the ski rear back before settling into the lean.

 

The take-away for you, @skibumsam, in this video is that the balance (centered forward vs. backward weight distribution) should be maintained and stable coming into, through, and out of the turn. I like the visual of the phone and water bottle at 2:48 time stamp.

 

Phone and Water Bottle (Matt Rini): jump to 2:48

 

This concept of keeping a weight distribution balance from lean through edge-change through turn into next lean is the smoothness we all want.

[skibumsam]

Ahhh very helpful @ToddL. Thanks for the video. Earlier this year when I was experimenting with my weight more forward I would bury the tip then pull way back. Then I decided to just stand on the tail. Now I just need time on the water to find that equal/forward balance

[skibumsam]

@ToddL Watched the video in full and realized he covered that feeling of burying the tip. You can initiate a turn on the front of the ski but its not going to want to finish a turn into the wakes with that position.

[ToddL]

correct

[Chef23]

@ToddL that is a great video thanks for sharing.

[skibumsam]

Got to ski tonight and do some video. Below are links for fluid motion direction drill then my two attempts. Attempted to stay forward on ski, lead with hips, and let the ski finish the turn. Drill done at 28 off as suggested by fluid motion. 34 mph behind '78 ski nautique.

 

 

 

[MattP]

@skibumsam‌ I fixed you video links so they embedded.

[skibumsam]

@MattP haha thanks I couldn't figure out why they wouldn't work! Did you do that to my earlier post as well?

[MattP]

@skibumsam‌ probably. Instead of using the link at the top of your browser on your phone you need to use the share link provided by youtube. Either copy and paste the link from a computer's version of the youtube page of the video or click "share" which looks like a < with 3 dots under the video and click email then copy and paste the link it provides in the email draft. I need to put this in the FAQ come to think of it.

[skibumsam]

@MattP Thanks again! I will remember that for next time. I'm sure you guys will see many more videos from me as I progress and run into new problems.

[GaryWilkinson]

In the thread "more than stacked" Neilly Ross' video is imbedded.

Have a look at her hip movement and how it drives her position and path.

A great technique to copy early in your career.

 

Also, do a search on @Than_Bogan‌ article "leverage position"

Tremendous description on how to get stacked into leverage position- absolutely key to improving.

[ToddL]

Here's the Neilly Ross Video:

[Than_Bogan]

And the link to my babbling: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oDlyJi8MRdF9t8uQcEMCUEGsivhQ2tP7qOO6HfPgCDg

[Niles Taylor]

@THAN_Bogan I'm sure you've had lots of compliments on your article. I'm going to use this as I am right at the spot where I can understand and realize the effects of getting into the proper position. Thanks for sharing, again!

[Than_Bogan]

Always glad if it helps more than it hurts!

[wtrskior]

@skibumsam‌ looking good in those vids, just keep working on your stacked body position. Hips over feet! you start off okay, then your butt drops back as you approach the wake forcing the ski flat.

 

you are still rushing your turns a bit too much for the purpose of the drill, let the ski arc out to get you wider, slowly come around and then a nice progressive lean through the wakes, led by your hips.

 

the slalom rhythm is just like a swingset - you gain speed and altitude on the swing when you are pushed from the very bottom of the swing, never the top - the bottom of the slalom swing is directly behind the boat - this is where you need to be the strongest, and really force your hips forward.

 

Arms straight like Paul Jager says - super key for any skier, you have a tendency to pull in. Overall I see an improvement from the earlier vid, so keep at it!

[skibumsam]

@GaryWilkinson I saw that video earlier in "more than stacked" @ToddL thanks for making it more accessible to the thread. I have a long way to go to get that position! I will start striving for that when I practice now.

 

@Than_Bogan I read the article and have heard as well as understand most of the elements to the stack position but have trouble getting myself there behind the boat. I have been experimenting with getting into position behind a rope on the dock but what has become easy there still illudes me when I get behind the boat. I think what I need now is a lot of time on my ski experimenting with getting into position.

 

@wtrskior Yes the stack position is a real challenge for me. I have had a lot of trouble taking my time on my turns as well. I got in the bad habit early of setting up monster turn and have just recently been trying to fix it. I don't understand where the arm bend comes from. I know I have had this problem but I feel like I fix it then watch my video and see they are bent the whole time. Maybe that will come when I get my hips forward and lean?

 

 

[wtrskior]

@skibumsam‌ how you stand on the ski is the most important aspect of skiing. Without a proper stance you'll never get very far in a slalom course or open water for that matter. A lot of it just comes from trust or the lack thereof. You are not trusting that your ski can edge through the wakes, so you end up squatting (a defensive position), which drops your butt back and you then need to hold on with your arms more.

 

really work on edging through the wakes NOTHING else. Forget about turning the ski when working on your leverage position. You crank the turn, and that puts you into the butt back position.

 

These are a bit old school, but apply to where you're at. Simply Stand tall, and lean over. NO pulling! Try it pulling out, then try it going through the wakes.

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

Btw, the reason I "know" so much about the leverage position is that I've been trying to fix mine for 20 years...

[skibumsam]

@wtrskior Thanks for the videos! I will try the drills next time I go out. The most helpful part was when he demonstrated the wrong way to do the drill. Sometimes I go out and ski and think I'm doing it right but in reality I'm way off. To see someone else change there style to what I'm actually doing was very helpful.

 

@Than_Bogan 20 years! if it takes me that long we might have a problem!

[Than_Bogan]

Believe me, you won't master it in 20 years. You'll get a LOT better, of course. My inadequacies used to become patent at 34/-15 and now I can sometimes hide them until 34/-38. But they're always there. Part of the addiction is that you simply cannot master this sport. The next speed or loop will slap you back into your place!

 

One of my favorite moments in this sport came not long after I had seen Jamie Beauchesne run a 3 @ 36/-41 in a local tournament. I went to get lunch and found him sitting by himself at a local cafe. Not known for my shyness, I sat down and began to tell him how awesome he was. The first words out of his mouth were:

 

"That gate at -41 sucked!"

 

He wasn't in any way offended nor trying to be pompous. The simple fact was that, at his level, his weaknesses began to come into play at -41. And he was obsessed with fixing them.

 

Just like all the rest of us.

[skibumsam]

@Than_Bogan haha great story and really does highlight why this sport is so addicting to some! Although may also be the reason so many people have switched to wakeboarding and other watersports now. I like to think we are an elite group to stick with it!

 

Not expecting to master the stack though I am frustrated with how long it is taking me to get a hold on it. Usually I have found myself to be a pretty fast learner when it comes to sports though waterskiing has definately humbled me.

[GaryWilkinson]

@skibumsam IMHO the reason you find it a bit difficult attaining the stacked position is that the ski is probably too far underneath and behind you, and while there, it does not generate much, if any speed. Speed is your friend in slalom, don't let anyone tell you different.

 

Believe it or not, you can (and should) get into the stacked position immediately after coming out of the water. You should find it much easier to ride in this position, shoulders back and square, hips forward, no,..more forward than that. knees bent a bit and shoulders down and elbows on your vest. If you get tired arms and back while just riding you are not in this position. So exaggerate it, take some video and listen to the applause!

 

When you attain this stacked /leverage position, you are set up to slice through the wakes easily, you truly will almost not feel them. You're also, more importantly, set up to gain speed through the wakes and cast out wide of the boat to allow a controlled edge change and turn.

 

If you didn't get this magic position,..

-you won't have speed through the wakes

-you'll find yourself edging out past the 2nd wake, and generally ride narrow

-and have the handle away from your body to induce a turn with slack

- and the ski will fall behind your body that is now bent at the waist and you have to force it around to get on "some" edge to cross to the other side.

 

Sorry for painting such a bad picture, I've been in slalom for 45 years and only 2 months ago figured this out. Thanks to @Than_Bogan‌ s article, Pierre's and Diane's coaching and finally understanding that: speed is good. (Sort of a GordonGecko moment, ask your parents).

 

Assume the leverage position as soon as you come out of the water,

Use it at every cut across course

Try to force yourself late in the set,on those last passes to engage your core and thrust those hips over your feet and elbows glued to your sides. If you do more than 2 turns in poor form, stop, rest, and re-set. You really don't want to develop any bad habits early in your slalom life.

 

Sorry for the rant and good luck, stay stacked!

[GaryWilkinson]

Another note, I just looked at your last 2 videos and noticed a large flaw if corrected, would fix lots.

In both videos you're staying still too narrow, and not cutting through the wakes which is a result of staying narrow.

 

Do the same drill,

-lower the speed by 2 mph,

-go to 22 off,

-but go as wide as Gordon Rathburn does in his videos which is about double what you're getting to.

BUT,..

And it's a big but:

Don't stop edging through the first wake

 

Stay on edge through the center of the wakes.

Did you notice how much your ski is bouncing and your knees are taking the wakes shock?

Slice through it with the ski on edge in the stacked position. By the time you get to the 2nd wake you'll be starting your edge change, (keep the elbows in tight still) and glide out free of the boats pull and enjoy how fast and easy it is to swerve side to side with speed.

 

Best of luck.

[skibumsam]

@GaryWilkinson‌ hopefully I will get to ski again this weekend to use all of the stuff bouncing around in my head! I will try the drill again with you tips and try to get video to see how it goes.

[GaryWilkinson]

Sorry for the overload of 411

 

Let's keep it simple:

Hips forward, elbows on vest

Cut through the wakes, glide wide.

 

Do a hundred like that, you'll love'em all

[skibumsam]

@GaryWilkinson I like to analyze so no problem although I need to get on the water every once and a while to make sure my body still remembers what it's supposed to do with all the stuff in my head. Good checklist that I should be able to remember even while I'm in the middle of a pass.

[ToddL]

I haven't done this in a while, but it really helped me in the past when I had a mental check list:

 

Place a small rectangle of white athletic tape on the top of the nose of your ski. Write down the top three things that you need to remember to work on.

 

Every time you put on your bindings, you will look at that tape note. Thus, you always start out your pass with the right things in your head.

 

Drive w Hips

Elbows to Vest

Glide Wide

 

or whatever your top 3 are...

[skibumsam]

@ToddL good idea! I usually use a sticky note on the dashboard but this is way better.

[skibumsam]

Hey ballers! Thanks for all the help and response to my original video on this post. I have been working to improve all the things you mentioned this last year and now thought it was time to post follow up video. Both videos are open water at 32 mph. First at -15 then -22. I think I am seeing reasonable improvement in my skiing considering the ltitle time I get on the water, but just looking for a little boost I could get from some higher level analysis. Key things I focus on every ski (still using @ToddL tape idea) are hips up, elbows to handle, and width. Understand I still need work in these areas but any pointers would be appreciated!

 

Some things I feel are problems:

- width (too wide or narrow most of time) will help to get in course

-unstable turn

-transition off wake (too early for this line length? Maybe goes with width