I found this very interesting.... Terry Winter transition

[mrpreuss]

Yes he is pulling himself up on the boat in the transition.

He is also getting into better position with more power with 2 hands.

Nate does it as well and it is most easily seen from the shoreline... It's there and it's clear if you are looking for it

JB used to make this a clear move too...

[mwetskier]

you and @Bruce_Butterfield conclude that terry winter is exerting a pulling force on the inside (trailing) arm but i disagree with that conclusion. in his teaching winter emphasizes keeping your shoulders open as much as possible through the pull and even out bound after the second wake. the end result is what a group of us have taken to calling ' skiing past the handle ' which is what i believe winter is doing here. seth stisher teaches some thing very similar that he describes as ' advancing the hips ' through the wake.

 

rather than exerting a pulling force on the trailing arm i think the bend in that arm is the natural result of keeping the * leading * arm more or less straight and some what loaded while doing this skiing past the handle thing. the shoulders are turned open to the boat giving the hips some thing to block against as they begin to advance and counter rotate into the pre turn.

 

as the hips and ski advance the leading arm has to wrap around the body forcing the trailing arm to bend even more. so i see the bent trailing arm as a * result * of the shoulder and hip action while winter drives the ski out bound into the pre turn rather than a forceful action of its own. its my sense that a forceful ' lawnmower starting ' pull on the trailing arm would serve to twist or pull the trailing shoulder into being more closed to the boat but we dont see that happening with winter or stisher.

 

any way thats my interpretation of what i see but i'm not qualified for the advanced topics thread so what do i know.

[DanE]

What if it doesn't matter how you approach it?

The 'lawnmower start' would be an easy thought process in the very short time frame the edge change occurs.

If it makes you keep the load in the leading arm and counter your hips outbound it should be a good thing.

[A_B]

I found that if I reverse the 60/40 load from my lead arm to the trailing arm after the work zone, I get much better runout width. Much easier to do when running on time or ahead. As soon as I fall behind, I overload my lead arm pressure, which ends up hurting width. The sensation of load can be felt in the hands and it is ever so slight on the handle, not necessarily needing to yank the handle with a side pull on the tailing arm. The ski and skier should be under less load when this happens.

 

I think moving the shoulder back helps the hips to move, at least mine seem to move together.

[Deep11]

Consciously trying to pull in or bend arms = bad idea from how I understand things - lots of bad things can happen :)

Better keep arms straight and connected - hip movement and rolling chest into back arm to make the transition are actually "doable" and result in the arm bend that you see off the second wake from the pros.

[A_B]

Transferring load into the trailing hand is good though at the transition, as it allows you to take full advantage of the width you created prior to it. Your lead arm should only be on the handle for balance and getting the shoulders leveled off at this point going into the turn . Any load on the lead arm and shoulder would pull you to a narrower path.

[A_B]

Chris Parrish in WSM 2012:

 

Change your edge, not your position

As you transition from your cutting edge to your turning edge, it’s crucial to keep a low anchor point close to your body. Instead of rocking forward through the edge change in an attempt to “prepare” for the turn, keep your handle close to your hips as you swing into your turning edge. It may feel like your weight is farther back as you near the turn, but by keeping your handle position consistent, you will continue to travel on a longer outward path and arrive at the buoy with more width.

 

[Deep11]

Totally agree about the arm pressure once main load is off - it's at the point the line gets tight I lost you: no way either of my scrawny arms can pull itself in to create the effect you were pointing out. What works for me is, through the transition, giving a little movement of turning chest and hips towards the next bouy to advance the ski through and prepare for the turn.

 

This video of JB is great to see just how straight your arms can be through the course.

[A_B]

Awesome. When I freeze frame him just after the wakes, you can see how he has swung the ski out and behind the handle. He still maintains trailing arm pressure, but not "pulled" in like TW. Maybe this even sets the ski out wider? Good discussion, which was the intention of my initial posts in the RC thread.

[DanE]

If you read the original post by @Bruce_Butterfield in advanced topics he made a point that the move with the elbow is not pulling the handle in, more of a move pulling it back - big difference.

[SkiJay]

Great discussion @A_B. Here's another perspective.

 

It seems which arm should be taking the load when and where is somewhat personal. I just took a few excellent lessons with Matt Rini, and he was adamant that the lead arm take most of the load throughout the swing to harness maximum energy from the rope. Seth Stisher, on the other hand, favors loading the trailing arm to help move the hips through. I doubt either of these two top coaches can be flat out wrong, so there's a good chance that arm loading choices have a lot to do with the goals and habits of each individual.

 

It makes me think that maybe the focus should be on how aggressively all the top guys use their cores to move their ski and hips out past the handle while remaining low and heavily against the rope. The only way to get here:

 

or here:

 

or here:

 

is to keep the chest and hips facing outbound so the ski and hips can get driven forward this far out past the handle. Anatomically, this isn't a sideways hip movement, it's moving the hips forward ahead of the shoulders. For it to be a forward movement, the hips and chest have to remain facing the direction of travel. And with everything facing forward as the hips and ski extend forward out wide of the handle, the arms have nowhere else to go. The trailing arm has to fold to about 90°, loaded or not, and the lead arm has to stay long and loaded.

 

The only way the trailing arm cannot fold to ~90° would be if the chest were allowed to rotate awkwardly open towards the boat, which can only happen with handle separation and hips trapped back. The three pictures above illustrate an off-side position that novices never pass through. I think this may be the most advanced position in water skiing.

 

In short, the best way to get our arms into this position is probably to focus more on what we are doing with our cores than what we're doing with our arms.

[bishop8950]

Many of us like to study the pros to see what we can learn. There is a ton of value in it. One thing I have learned in doing so is that we can draw speculative conclusions as to what they are thinking/doing and be completely wrong about it. So I work to find direct info from the pros themselves which is fortunately an option in our tiny sport. Many people on this forum are able to draw correct conclusions, but I don't trust myself.

 

I have had people coach me who have studied TW and they have tried to get me to emulate what he looks like - they were on the wrong track with how to get the right things in place. I know this because I have also skied with Terry a number of times over the last few years. I was asking him to help me with the transition. We tried a number of things and this helped the most: when going from the centerline out say to 1 ball, keep your right shoulder away from the boat as long as possible. Resist the boats pressure to pull that right shoulder up and inside. Terry said this is something he focuses on through his transitions. I asked him if he is ever thinking about his arms and the way he pumps the handle out to the buoy and he says no, thats not a focus but maybe a result. When I look at the picture of TW above and think about everything he coached me I am betting he is thinking about pinning that right shoulder a bit longer until the ski has finished casting out and its time to rise up and reach.

[Razorskier1]

I think this is a critical spot in the pass. @bishop8950‌ nailed it. For me I think about staying strong at the transition - almost like squeezing my core. This helps me to stay outbound rather than letting the boat bring me up and inside the line of the ski.

[drewski32]

The picture of TW looks like he is dealing with a lot of load off the second wake, and if he is pulling with one arm more than the other, it is probably the straight arm because he would have more leverage that way. Power is achieved through core movement; bending your arms to pull achieves NOTHING.

[mrpreuss]

It's not just arms.

It's a combination of swing, lower body, core, upper body and arms.

It's dynamic and not a single "thing".

It is there in varying techniques and motions in many skiers.

It's about gaining width and position by adding power.

It's about control of the line, handle and position.

[ozski]

The trailing arm bend is a result of a good transition coming off good angle, good stack and so on, I don't think its a conscious action. Its pretty much impossible to keep the handle close without the resulting inside arm bend. This is simply great handle control in action.

[Horton]

Many of us like to study the pros to see what we can learn. There is a ton of value in it. One thing I have learned in doing so is that we can draw speculative conclusions as to what they are thinking/doing and be completely wrong about it.

 

Thank you @bishop8950‌

[cragginshred]

Great thread! A year ago I would not have understood 1/2 of it.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Mwetskier, a little clarification. I probably could have said it better, but what “looks like” him pulling the inside hand back, could easily be thrusting the inside hip forward. It is really more of a core rotation than a distinct arm or shoulder movement and there are many ways to describe it. A key piece of this is that the pressure on the leading arm needs to be maintained.

 

I haven’t had the pleasure of getting coached by Terry, so I don’t know his thought process, but I will bet a beer that what I described is not what he is thinking about.

 

[MarcusBrown]

Lot of good comments here. @bishop8950‌ is spot on. I don't think the ideal set of movements, from centerline to apex, are as complicated as many tend to think.

 

There is undoubtedly 1 " most efficient" set of moves that gets you from centerline to apex better than any other combination of moves.

 

I don't know precisely how many "moves" there are in the sequence, or what all the right ones are.

 

The physical fitness and flexibility/mobility of a skier definitely plays a role in how and what that skier can do, on a ski. But that doesn't mean every skier shouldn't be working towards the same goal (skiing the most efficient lines and passes), and thus, be trying to execute pretty much the same moves....with one exception: if you can't get your body into the best anatomical shape, at the appropriate time throughout the course....at the very least you should understand what the ideal body shape is, at that point in the course, and learn how to maximize what you can do within your limited range of motion.

 

We all do this...sometimes its for the better, sometimes not.

 

For instance, many people either ski with really restrictive boots, have their feet mounted too far apart, or have really poor ankle flexibility: so to make up for their inability to move their knees forward on the ski, they tend to bring their shoulders and chest forward. This is a very common adaptation on the water. Its their band-aid for not being able to use the most anatomically (and efficient) body position to move their center of mass. Instead, they do what they can in the moment, and it becomes a part of their "style".

 

Terry has developed an adaptation in his transition. Sometimes he overloads the rope on his cut into the wakes....usually not, but sometimes. The harder the load, the harder it is to manage the unload outbound. As result, Whisper gets popped to the inside quicker than he would like...along with 99.9999% of the skiing population (although Terry handles it better than most). If he were to keep his arms long when he pops to the inside, the rope would go slack momentarily. So, he's learned to manage that change in rope load by pulling his elbows into his sides. Its a result of something else, its not his goal, nor his focus.

 

Which highlights one of my biggest frustrations with the technical culture surrounding water skiing, and happens to be exactly what @bishop8950‌ was getting at. Analyzing the best of the best is a delicate and dangerous thing. Most people don't know what they are looking for, and therefore often make the wrong conclusions. The anecdotal approach of "it works for the best, so it should work for me", is where we came from...back in the 1970's, 80's and 90's. Its grabbing straws and hoping we get lucky. I think BOS has played a huge role in elevating the level of dialogue surrounding technical aspects of water skiing....by providing this arena for some of the most passionate skiers and greatest minds to share ideas openly and freely. @horton deserves about a million Anti-Panda's for all he has done to move this facet of sport forward.

 

I'm just hoping that folks continue to think outside the box, critically and creatively. I think a lot of you out there have great ideas, and maybe a slightly different approach or vision than the next guy. That's what it takes to keep things fresh and spark new ideas. But at the root of it all, the foundation of everything we are talking about, is physics.

 

The better a skier understands the forces that are acting on he/she, the better they will ski. Learn to love that aspect of skiing, like a lot of the guys on this forum, and you will ski better.

 

2 final thoughts:

1. Pulling your arms in through the transition is bad. I promise you will ski better if you can resist the urge to pull your body closer to the handle.

2. @skijay and others have mentioned moving the ski/hips/feet/etc outbound and wide as possible through the transition. This is a common misconception as well, but this should never be the goal. Maximum width at apex doesn't come from projecting or shooting or pointing your ski outbound....it comes from riding the handle outbound as long as possible. I'm pretty confident that to improve your skiing, you should try to do the opposite: Slow the outbound movement of your feet ( @horton and his flat ski technique is genius) and keep your hips as close to the handle, as long as you can, through the transition.

 

[ToddL]

The anti-panda:

http://media.giphy.com/media/wvU5tfkPyEZRS/giphy.gif

[RichardDoane]

@marcusbrown - physics Rocks! thanks for posting

[AdamCord]

I just want to quickly reiterate something that @MarcusBrown so wisely mentioned. I hear this a lot around here and I fear it's seriously screwing some people up. Shooting the ski wider through the edge change / transition is definitely NOT the goal.

 

Think about it this way:

As you move through the center the path of the handle starts to swing more downcourse. If you watch overhead footage of any skier you will see this. It's not a bad thing, it's just the geometry of what's happening. As the rope gets shorter this happens more abruptly and more drastically. If you are trying to shoot the ski out to the shoreline when you pass through that transition point, guess what happens? You get separated. The handle gets pulled away from your body, the ski rolls over way too far, you lose speed, and you end up late, narrow, with slack line, etc. This becomes increasingly apparent as the rope gets shorter.

 

Sorry for the rant...up all night with baby :neutral_face:

 

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown‌ who knew you were the voice of reason? I love you man.

[Terry Winter]

I think the goal is to get wide without cutting long, right? How do you have enough time and width before the ball to be able to really commit, and finish your turn early? Speed and angle created before the first wake allows the skier to neutralize the ski at the centerline of the course. The tricky part is coming off of the ski's accelerating edge at the centerline of the course, but still carrying an outbound direction that creates space before the ball.

 

If you're going into 1,3 the boat wants to lift your right shoulder as soon as you pass the centerline. If your shoulder gets lifted then you're going into the buoy straighter and narrower, so then you can't commit to the turn until you're past the buoy.

 

The way I see it, I want my shoulders to be pretty much square and level everywhere. I want my chest facing (for the most part) straight down the course and I want my shoulders to stay completely level with the water so I can control my load and ski's edge more with my lower body than my upper body.

 

The way I tend to keep my away shoulder from being lifted back in towards the boat is by trying to pin both of my elbows to my lower ribs through the edge change and pre-turn. If I have two hands on the handle, then I want my elbows pinned to my ribs.

 

Yes, there is a a little bit of pulling in on my arms to keep my elbows in place. I think I probably error on the side of pulling in too much. My goal is to just maintain the position of my elbows relative to my core as I pass through the centerline and as I swing out to my full width. What I learned as I was getting better as a skier is that I was better off with my elbows in rather than out, so I developed the habit of really keeping them in.

 

MB tells me that I pull in too much, so did Rini. I think they're both right. I think the ultimate would be no pulling in, but also not letting them budge at all either.

 

Again, an easy way for me to think about it is if I have two hands on the handle then I want my elbows and core in total connection.

 

So, how the hell do you learn how to do this? You have to be committed to stopping your cut. Divide the course into two halves... from ball to centerline of course is acceleration, and from centerline to the next ball is deceleration. Skiers feel that they're not wide enough so they cut longer. Not the right answer. Commit to having the ski be neutral right at the centerline, and then from there figure out what you need to do to achieve the right amount of width. You've got to load up on enough speed and angle into the wakes, and then from the centerline out be able to utilize it and allow it to swing you out to max width. If your core collapses at the centerline or if your arms and core separate then you've just lost everything you built up and you'll come up short.

 

Here's how I visualize it all happening...

Out of the ball, get your hips and elbows sealed together. Lean like hell and build some load into the first wake. Approaching the centerline, swing your feet from behind your upper body to out in front of your upper body while at the same time arching your lower back and pushing your hips up even stronger into the handle or hands. (Visualize this as if you were on a swing at a playground) As the ski has initiated its swing and is directly underneath your upper body then alleviate the pressure on the ski's cutting edge by allowing the knees to lift towards your chest. Flex your biceps just a bit, and push your elbows into your ribs using your shoulder muscles. Pin those elbows as if you had a bar running through both elbows and your core to hold everything in place. As you land off of the wake and start to set that inside edge let your hips rise and move forward so that by the time you are ready to commit to your turn your hips are lined up over your front foot toes. When you're ready to commit to your turn, the free hand can finally come off of the handle and the handle arm can be fed out. Stay level, stay square, turn like crazy and get your hips and elbows sealed together again. PULL DAMN IT!

[Terry Winter]

 

[Terry Winter]

A couple shots to see how long the inside elbow stays close to the body. "OLD PHOTOS"

[Deep11]

This thread needs archiving somewhere special - to pulled out and read again and again and.......

[SkiJay]

On behalf of skiers everywhere, thank you @twhisper‌ for regularly posting such great videos of your skiing for us to study, and thank you for chiming in here to set us straight on all our zealous speculation as to what your thinking is.

 

I keep reading how we shouldn't study photos of the pros, assume that they are getting it right, or presume to understand what they are thinking. I understand these statements, but what is the alternative for the legions of us seeking a better game . . . especially in winter. Surely we're better off studying the pro's best efforts than nothing at all.

 

I love watching your videos! They're a sterling example of efficient skiing and provide invaluable perspective when reviewing my own pylon videos. And for you to shine light on what you are doing as you have with this post is as good as it gets.

 

Thank you, Terry. You are a class act!

[jdk99]

I just have to chime in and say what an amazing sport we have! Where the pros and experts are willing to jump in and share their thoughts with the mortals.

 

@twhisper, @MarcusBrown, @sethski...thank you. Class acts indeed!

 

As per @deep11, this thread and few that preceded it will be preseason/offseason/inseason reading for me for years to come.

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12177/edge-change-transition-question-help-needed

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12186/the-reverse-c

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12230/i-found-this-very-interesting

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12232/i-found-this-very-interesting-terry-winter-transition

 

@Horton, two thumbs up for a phenomenal site.

 

 

[jimbrake]

"You've got to load up on enough speed and angle into the wakes, and then from the centerline out be able to utilize it and allow it to swing you out to max width."

 

"Lean like hell and build some load into the first wake."

 

Terry - thanks for confirming that I haven't been completely wrong about my skiing for the past 35 years.

 

and lastly - "As the ski has initiated its swing and is directly underneath your upper body then alleviate the pressure on the ski's cutting edge by allowing the knees to lift towards your chest."

 

How much do you think that you make this knee/ski release happen vs. it just happening as a result of your angle and position at the centerline?

[Terry Winter]

Jim, I think you have to have some intention in letting your knees absorb either the wake or trough. If the legs remain strong/extended, then the only way to come out of the lean is for the upper body to get pulled up way too far to the inside. I think it's all part of the process of lessening your leverage or lean away from the boat as you're approaching centerline. Decreasing lean away from the boat and the legs taking pressure off of the cutting edge of the ski are happening at the same time.

 

I don't have to think about this anymore, but maybe it's something that needs to be practiced by skiers who haven't got it dialed yet. It's one of the benefits of growing up at a time where the wakes and rooster tails were huge compared to today's boats. As a sub-100 pounder running passes behind Ski Supremes you learn to absorb the wake pretty quickly.

[jimbrake]

Funny, I can do that all day long on snow - release the energy built-up in my skis by letting my knees come up allowing the skis to move under me, change edges, steer to a new line, but I've got to learn the feel of that release on the water. I know I've felt it happen, but not as a result of me making consciously making it happen. The difference is that on snow (on a slope) you are also trying to release your upper body/core down the hill at the same time, whereas on water you're only releasing your lower body. Hence the Reverse C that everyone is going on about.

 

You wrote "swing your feet from behind your upper body to out in front of your upper body while at the same time arching your lower back and pushing your hips up even stronger into the handle or hands." Would this not accomplish mostly the same thing as the knee release and the knee release is just an "add on" to this swing? You seem to do the knee release in a more pronounced way than a lot of pros (and it works awesome). Others seem to do it, but less pronounced. I'm sure it's one of those personal style differences.

 

I think one of the major pluses in the way that you do it is how as your legs are lengthening back out after that move that that is when you are also moving up on your front foot. If the skier just does the swing of the feet with less knee absorption, then there has to be another mechanism to move forward as you settle on to that new turning edge.

[Terry Winter]

The back to front swing is the initial movement of the ski, and then from closer to the boat to farther away from the boat is the latter part of the movement. You start the swing with your legs strong moving from back to front. Right at the point that the ski is under the upper body the legs go into absorbing and allow the ski's edge to roll from accelerating to inside edge.

 

It seems to me that in snow skiing the move is more similar to the latter movement in slalom where the ski is rolling edge to edge rather than from back to front. The added pull from the boat rather than gravity complicates things.

 

[A_B]

Awesome frame shots.

[jimbrake]

Thanks, Terry. Great explanation of the difference between the initial swing followed by the knee move as the ski goes from between you and the boat to outside. In watching you it's always seemed to me that your legs stay resistive through the movement shown in the first three images (the push of the feet and hips forward) and that the knees absorbing the "terrain" part is in response to hitting the bump beyond the trough.

 

Nice sequence shots. I've been saying for years we need more sequence photo montages like Ron LeMaster does for Alpine Ski Racing. I think sometimes it helps you analyze movement better than seeing the actual movement on video. I've just never had the camera to do it.

[Razorskier1]

Terrific thread! I don't have problems with the acceleration phase. Where I really need to focus my attention is at the transition behind the boat. Like Terry said, it is easy to disconnect by allowing the edge change to occur at my shoulders instead of controlling it with my core and lower body. That seems to be key for me. I hadn't considered how releasing the ski pressure with the knees played into it. Good, good stuff!

[alex38]

Wow, this thread is a freakin clinic, I have found the thought process of Pro skiers to always be super helpful, thanks to all for contributing.

 

 

[Chef23]

I am thoroughly depressed now I am not sure I can do anything that was talked about in this thread. It is great stuff though.

[ozski]

This is great information, if your serious about perfecting this part of your skiing then I would suggest getting a video camera out and getting out of the course and doing some drills.

[drewski32]

I love it when pros chime in on these threads. It seems to happen when we all start overanalyzing and get it all wrong so they come in to put a stop to the madness. I'd love to see more posts from Terry!

[6balls]

Cool thread and thanks to the the excellent pro's willing to post. Discussing center line to buoy which I believe is the mack daddy is fantastic. Many of us can ski angle and speed to the center in leveraged position...the game is won managing said energy to wide from center line to ball and I believe separates the good skiers from the great skiers.

[A_B]

@Bruce_Butterfield‌ someone else, along with other guys running through 39 have a bent trailing arm at the transition point. Even though I read you want a straight arm, I see a lot of bent back arms holding the handle in at waist level.

 

 

[Razorskier1]

A skier I know once described this process as "slowing down the edge change". I think that is what Terry is describing (in my head). He talks about not letting the boat lift your shoulder up and in, and instead controlling the edge change from a lower anchor point. For me this is key. For example, how many times have you loaded the line up and had great angle and speed, but at the "change" of edges, you quit pulling, get lifted up and in, and end up with a loose line? Controlling direction, body position and the handle at that critical point is crucial to "staying at the end of the rope". I started working on this late this season when a friend observed that the really great skiers make the edge change happen down below the knees, meaning that their upper body remained up with tension against the handle even though their lower body/ski/ankles had shifted to flat, then inside edge. Made sense to me when he said it and I worked on it quite a bit with positive effect.

 

Hardest thing about skiing is that I swear it is a game of "magic words". Five people tell me the same exact thing in different ways, and I only understand one of them. Great to have everyone put this in their own words on this thread, with the assistance of both @marcusbrown and @twhisper.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@a_b yes having the inside arm bent is pretty much required to keep the handle in close on the edge change. The thing to avoid is pulling up or in, which will tend to pull the outside shoulder in toward the boat.

 

The thing that stood out to me on terry is that it "looks like" he is pulling back as part of the hip rotation / forward movement. The result is the handle closer to the hips than nate's pic above, and when the handle is closer, the inside arm has to be bent more.

 

Make sense?

[A_B]

Jim, I feel,the same way. That is why I have said "to me" it felt like my ski was stuck under me and I had to kick it out in front. When I did this, it finally let me stsrt to feel the edge change getting out behind the handle going into the preturn. This move is not endorsed by all, but some do say to move the ski out, BUT for me, it worked. it didn't seem to be a natural flow from my fairly decent pull phase, and really showed up when I started breaking into 38. I was stuck until I started doing this. Then all,the rest of my flaws were the issue as usual.

[Skoot1123]

One of the best threads of all time. Thanks @twhisper for chiming in!!!

[SkiJay]

@A_B‌

One of the key phrases in your last post is ". . . for me it works." @Razorskier1's point on magic words is so true. Not only do we all need to hear it differently, it feels different among us. Your description of how it feels when it has worked for you may be more helpful to some than a description given by the best skier on earth, even if what you're feeling doesn't exactly match what you are doing.

 

Not only is your perspective valid, it's shared by others. Breanne Dodd coaches exactly what you've been describing, no doubt influenced by Bruce Dodd. And I've watched all five foot nothing of her take this philosophy to 5@-39. Whether it's "right" or not, it works for her.

 

I deeply appreciate the guidance we are getting from some of the world's top skiers on this forum. And I also appreciate hearing your perspective and that of others who are deep in the middle of learning a skill that I too am working on, especially the ah-ha moments. The magic words can come from all corners.

[A_B]

@Bruce_Butterfield‌ this pic below of the best female skier on the planet, shows her off hand shoulder still in a pulled back "countered" position. When I hit this position, I ski better. Maybe my old hips don't swivel as well so need my shoulder to help get them started. Agree that the inside hip needs to rotate forward after the wakes, just some old codgers like me may need some help.

 

 

[jimbrake]

She's shertainly not shmearing wish shuch a shortline.