When you look up the word smear as it relates to waterskiing, you should see this.

[Wish]

The term has been tossed out a lot on BOS. Sometimes I think terms like this get confusing and difficult to visualize. This pic screamed smear when I saw it. Not a fan to the term but it seams to have stuck.

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[Bulldog]

@Wish very cool image!

[Horton]

@wish actually I do not think that is what @Chris Rossi‌ is talking about. I "think" when he talks about it he is specifically talking about "oversteer" (my words) before the ball not after.

 

I had @Colebrah‌ working on smear a few weeks ago when he did it he was like "holy crap what is that?"

 

Anyway that is a cool shot.

[mwetskier]

i misspelled it ' schmear ' and this is what popped up -

 

http://toriavey.com/images/2012/05/Lemon-Dill-Schmear-on-Bagel-640x480.jpg

 

[Wish]

@Horton‌ agreed

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[Razorskier1]

I've seen skiers do this and it is really different from the boat. They get the ski "smearing" before the ball and it looks like it is already turned inbound before they get there (tip pointing in, tail out). Then magically the tip slides right past the ball and the ski starts running cross course. Pretty cool.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

I'll be totally honest the first time I read the article I didn't really understand fully. Like @Horton‌ said he mentioned it a few weeks back to me while I was skiing, and broke it down a little more in depth. I'll tell you, when you do it you know it. Made the pass feel easier at the backside of the buoy and felt earlier and wider. Can't wait to really be able to focus on it in the spring.

[Than_Bogan]

Ya know, ya'd think "go around these 6 buoys" would be simpler than this.

 

Kinda awesome that it isn't. Can anybody try to tell me what actual moves they do to cause this "pre-pre-turn" if you will?

[ToddL]

Truth is that unless you are perfectly flat and on top of the ski, there is always some amount of "smear". There is "smear" while crossing the wakes. The boat pulls your ski down course while you point it cross course and your actual path is in between. I wonder how much of that displaced water is due to depth vs. smear.

 

Anyway, it is a very cool picture.

[A_B]

THIS MAKES AN AWESOME SCREENSAVER!

[Horton]

@Colebrah‌ can you find a link to the original @Chris Rossi‌ text and post it for @Than_Bogan‌?

@ToddL‌ that might be the most profound thing you have ever written.

 

@MattP‌ I really need the sarcasm font. When will it be a reality?

[A_B]

My new screen saver:

 

 

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan‌ http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/9997/rossi-answers-chapter-1-1-keep-elbows-arms-in-the-smear/p1

[SkiJay]

My understanding of smear is that its a term used to describe a ski behavior more than it refers to any specific location like during the pre-turn. I know that Rossi has used it to describe getting the ski to smear/slide/drift/rotate before the ball, but the ski is still smearing after the ball.

 

Smear is used in snow skiing too. Racers do everything they can to avoid letting the ski smear. Now that powder skis are all fat and floatie, smearing wide of rocks and trees has become fairly standard big mountain technique. But while both snow and water skis smear, how they smear is quite different. On snow skis, smear is mostly controlled by technique. On a water ski, smear is largely controlled by fin and binding setup.

 

 

not my labling, straight from snow skiing page

[MrJones]

Brett Hodgekins. Skier from the UK who was working for Cory the first time I ever went there. Good skier with a bad back. One of my favorite pics!

[Horton]

@jayski – no I totally disagree

 

I guess if your bindings are way back and your fin is deep & long it is going to impact smear but with a normally set up ski it about skier input (technique). The ultra short version of what I think @Chris Rossi‌ said is “by moving forward aggressively right after the edge change the tail of the ski will smear wide of the direction of travel”. The result is the ski will have started to pivot before the apex. This means the ski has to change direction less at the finish to get the desired angle.

 

Rossi punctuated this with elbows handle yadda yadda yadda.

 

[DW]

Slip angle would be the terminology I would apply to the condition.

[ToddL]

I like the Captain Obvious moments. They are fun.

[A_B]

Gotta like @SkiJay‌ 's waterskier example!

[jimbrake]

@SkiJay‌ - no they don't.

 

 

(crickets)

 

 

OK - I'll expound. I've been over this before. Google the term "stivot". It's an early drift (smear) to set up direction early above a gate (really only in GS or maybe the Val d'Isere SuperG) on a steep pitch in a tight set where you can't (not even Ted) purely carve from one turn to the next.

 

Whatever. At least on snow it makes sense. On water, not so much. Our fins are kinda designed to limit smear right? I mean if you're fin depth is at 2.6000 the tail of the ski won't smear very well. If you take the fin off it'll smear awesome. So, now we have to tune our fins for smear, I guess. Maybe we should start going shallower than 2.45.

 

This whole smear thing in slalom just kind of PMO. Do we really need to turn another thing that just happens a little when you are 1) up tall on your front foot in the preturn 2) wide and early 3) level and countered and 4) your fin is sufficiently shallow into some technical minutiae to start further obsessing over?

 

Now, in addition to trailing arm pinky pressure and lawnmower pulls, reverse C, and knee absorption, I've got to start worrying about smear, too. GD it. Enough.

[wtrskior]

A ski in water will wash away, its not on a rail like a ski on snow/ice.

 

I agree 100% with @SkiJay‌ in his notion of this being how the ski reacts vs physical movement.

 

Ive held off posting for a while because frankly I feel the topics are getting further and further away from what you actually want to think about.

 

Take a read of @twhisper‌ posts and you'll notice he talks about very "basic" or fundamental ideas and movements, not complicated or unknown ideas like this.

 

I'd doubt that many a top skier thinks about this. Skiing is about riding a ski and the movements or lack thereof that get you from 1 side of the boat to the other most efficienrly as possible.

 

Be careful over analyzing things.

[ToddL]

@Horton, @MattP - Sarcastic Font:

http://glennmcanally.com/sarcastic/

http://glennmcanally.com/sarcastic/images/wanted.gif

[Drago]

I haven't stopped rolling my eyes ever since I first read about a purposeful smear before the buoy. Sorry, but a whole 747 of pandas dropped on my lap that day. Now they're back.

I definitely respect his knowledge and accomplishments, but this concept is IN-sane. Please don't compare it to ski racing. Just...please...

[Horton]

@Drago‌ I agree that is it mostly misunderstood but if you look at exactly what @Chris Rossi‌ is advocating it works pretty well. Does it translate to snow skiing? Hell I do not know.

 

It is more like the way I imagine driving a race car (something I have never done). The driver enters the corner with a little over steer and lets the back wheels come around just enough before the apex and then with a little throttle he transfers some weight to the back wheels and steers out of the corner. ( @DW feel free to tell me this is a terrible misunderstanding of race cars)

 

On a slalom ski the feeling i get is pretty subtle but bitchen when I do it right. Basically you let the boat pull your forward through edge change (again check Rossi's text for correct details) and then you feel the tail just slightly flow away from the direction of path as you approach max width.

 

Is it an illusion? I have no idea but the turn that follows is generally better than normal. Ask @Colebrah‌

[AdamCord]

The ski is always sliding sideways aside from the split second during edge change. I think Rossi was talking about starting the ski's rotation before you get to the ball. It's definitely something that is a result and not something you are really actively thinking about while skiing.

[Horton]

@AdamCord‌ Oooo fine say the same thing I said but clearer. Go change a diaper or something.

[mwetskier]

@Jimbrake -at least once a season i experience ' stivot ' in the slalom course -i think. its always off side -either 3 or 5 ball usually 5 -and always a surprise i could not replicate it if i tried. i do know that it happens when i'm a little fast at the ball and also may be a little narrow. also it has only happened at a longer line typically -28 '.

 

what it feels like is almost exactly the feeling you have on a trick ski when you slightly un weight your tail and *snap* the ski into a side slide -that is you actually feel like you've *locked* the ski at 90 degrees to the wake. if you never trick skied then you dont know what that feels like but thats how this ' stivot ' thing feels. its almost like a ' hockey stop ' but without the stop part.

 

the *result* is the ski instantly heads toward the other side of the course with a lot of speed and virtually no load. in fact i couldnt take a load if i wanted to because it happens really quick and i didn't know it was going to happen so all i can do is hang on in whatever goofy semi -stack i happen to have at the time.

 

what it reminds of if i could see myself from the boat is a carnival shooting gallery where the metal duck is going sideways on a conveyor belt and if you shoot one it instantly turns a 180 and heads the other way. when i describe it to the boat crew they are unaware of any thing different happening except that i made the pass.

 

what seems to make it happen is i feel late and instinctively try to turn the ski across course as instantly as possible. theres no sense of carving and theres definitely a feeling of the tail washing out but that doesnt happen and i end up on the other side in great shape to finish the pass. oddly i can never decide if it a good thing to try to develop or if i just narrowly dodged a bullet.

[Horton]

@mwetskier I do not know what a stivot is but I pretty sure that is not what @Chris Rossi‌ means by smear and it sounds like a bad thing to me.

[SkiJay]

Smear is just a synonym for drift, slide, loose, rotation, slip, etc. Cars do it, planes do it, snow skis do it, and even motorcycles do it. I know this because I've engineered and raced all of these things. It's not a skiing technique that anyone needs to work on just because Chris used the term to describe what he wants the ski to do while approaching the ball. It's a ski behavior, not a skier behavior.

 

You can get the ski to smear more by engaging more tip or by forcing the tail around with the back leg (edit: which is bad), but consider smear more a byproduct of good technique than a technique in itself. It's tuned using DFT, FD, and binding settings and just occurs as it should with a good setup and sound water skiing skills.

[Horton]

engaging more tip or by forcing the tail around with the back leg

No. I do not believe there is any forcing the tail anywhere. It is the result of being more forward sooner.

 

smear is a byproduct of far more important technique considerations, not a technique in itself yes yes yes

[SkiJay]

I didn't mean to imply that there is anything good about rear leg forcing, only that it's one of the ways for a skier to make a ski smear. Moving forward to engage more tip, on the other hand, is legit. Smear increases with roll angle too, assuming there's enough tip engaged.

[Horton]

@SkiJay‌ assuming we are talking before apex how the heck can you force smear? I do not think you understand. Have you worked on it in as @Chris Rossi‌ described it?

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@SkiJay‌ like @Horton‌ said smearing comes right at the beginning of our edge change, its moving up on the ski earlier, and that's where the "smearing" begins. What you described above pushing the ski around at the end of the turn is more of it sliding out of its path, which isn't something particularly good.

[A_B]

Not sure I can relate smearing with carrying speed through the turn..

I think I would rather feel more like my ski is on a rail through the turn vs. slip sliding around @Horton‌

[SkiJay]

Going over this thread, it seems there may be four separate notions being discussed which may be causing some confusion. One is the definition of smear, the second is how and where the ski smears, the third is how the skier can influence smear, and the forth is our interpretation of what Chris Rossi set out to describe.

 

I would submit that the definition of smear is the ski's tendency to side-slip or drift whenever it is under lateral load. Smear is just a term describing a ski behavior.

 

Where the ski smears is everywhere other than during the actual edge-change, and ranges from an infinitesimally small amount of smear at the beginning and end of the transition through the maximum amount of smear during a sharp turn around the ball.

 

The skier has four influences over smear: engaging more of the surface area at the front of the ski (tip-engagement) causes the ski to turn because the tail is smearing more than it is at the water-break; rolling the ski up onto a steeper edge (reducing how much fin area the water flow can act against); speed control (the ski smears more at low speed than while travelling fast); and physically forcing the back of the ski around with the back leg (an old-school technique that is considered poor technique on modern skis).

 

Finally, I believe that Rossi borrowed the term "smear" from his snow skiing experience (where the term is used more prolifically) to describe his desire to get the ski rotated and sliding sideways during the pre-turn in preparation for the turn. I don't believe he was saying the ski doesn't smear elsewhere, just that he wants to get it to smear more while approaching the ball.

[SkiJay]

http://www.waterskimag.com/files/2014/11/slalom_waterkiing_spray_green_water.jpg

 

[Wish]

Edit: @SkiJay‌ beet me to my post.

 

Man, I thought the pic would clarify "smear" to some degree. Seems to have sparked a "what is it" discussion. Think there is 2 ways to look at it. 1. Chris Rossie reffering to it in a portion of the course as the skis attitude as it relates to the water and a particular thing (ski moving forward and sidways on a turning enge) happening from edge change to ball. 2. What the ski is doing most of the time in a pass unless it's dead flat to the water. Everyone is sorta right accept those that say it's something you do vs something the ski does or you'd like it to do as it's just a product of something you did.

[DW]

Slip happens anytime the ski is in a turning motion as noted by AC, just like a tire, turning requires some level of slip angle to execute the motion.

 

To jth's comment on comparing to driving a car, it can actually be either oversteer or understeer as slip happens anytime there is a turning motion but the reference to the transition to the post apex phase using weight transfer to adjust the O/U steer (and thus slip angle) is accurate. Good photographic evidence of slip is before the buoy shots where it appears the ski will go inside the buoy but does not.

[SkiJay]

Like this @DW?

 

[Horton]

If you guys call all side slip "smear" then we need a different term for what @Chris Rossi‌ was describing. In that case we are in a state of smear almost all the time so what is the point?

[SkiJay]

@Horton‌

I would think the point is the timing, location, and degree of smear/drift/rotation. The picture of Marcus above is a pretty good example of my understanding of Rossi's goal. When he can get the ski to smear into the ball like this, it both slows the ski, and sets it up for near immediate acceleration out of the ball.

 

In Chris' own words: "The more your ski is smeared or rotated before you get to the buoy, the closer to the back side of the buoy you can get in your stacked position and utilize the acceleration zone . . ."

[Drago]

You guys are gonna get hurt if you TRY to pivot the ski sideways prior to the apex, especially the closer to the centerline you are. Obviously the ski never "tracks" the way we feel or visualize.

...IMHO...

[Horton]

@Drago‌ as long as there is video it is a greatest idea

[Horton]

@jayski‌ above you said a ski is always smearing. (Yes true) my point is ... Ooooo never mind

[jayski]

@Horton ... I haven't said anything, give yourself a panda for not knowing who your talking too/about ; )

[ToddL]

LOL - @jayski @SkiJay is your evil twin apparently.

[Horton]

@jayski‌ I was hoping you would talk some sense into the these knuckle heads

[Ilivetoski]

This concept will take some time to sink in and I am normally really good with understanding technique and theory... I took a break from studying for finals to stop the headache... This isnt helping...

[ozski]

Ive been waiting for some video of trick ski slalom to surface in this thread.

[SkiJay]

@ToddL‌ Believe it or not, Im the good twin; you don't want to get @jayski wound up!!