Practice does not count & everyone runs 41 on the Internet

[Horton]

a conversation today:

 

Horton: "how are you skiing on that ski you trying?"

 

Unnamed -Elite skier: "1 1/2 at 43"

 

Horton: "holy crap you should let me leak that! Brand X ski company would be so stoked"

 

Unnamed -Elite skier: "nope not until I do it in a tournament"

 

Horton : "that is no fun"

 

[Ilivetoski]

Is this our cue to start guessing who it is? I guess Brian Detrick!

[dthate]

On the V-hype.....sorry type

[skidawg]

Gotta be heavy D

[RazorRoss3]

It's sad but true, the phrase "I do it all the time in practice" is borderline meaningless. I'm definitely guilty of saying it as I get out of the water in line with the 5 ball at a tournament.

[Moggie]

While I can see why elite skiers may take this view I’ve always disagreed that practice doesn’t count. It may not matter to other people but it matters to me. Yesterday I ran 16m at 58kph for the first time and set a new practice PB of 3@14.25m. To achieve something I’d never done before was a huge rush. My tournament PB is only 5@18.25m@58kph, so when I eventually run it in a tournament it will be more relief than joy.

 

If you’re comparing yourself to other skiers then I agree that only tournament scores really count, but practice scores are important to me because it tells me what I’m capable of achieving.

[Ilivetoski]

I agree with @moggie I just dont agree that practice does not matter/ is frowned upon when talking about scores. If we are always talking about tournament scores 99.999999999999% of us arent really talking about the true level of skier that we are. While I am not saying that we need to be cocky about our skiing ability, we should definitely be able to say "I am a skier capable of getting into 35 off" if we can run 32 off and get into 35.Thats just the truth. I understand other things come into play like if you ski at a site that never hosts tournaments your course may not be quite in spec, or boats if you cant ski ZO or whatever. The point is that at the end of the day you are physically capable of getting to a certain pass, and that should not be sold short because you didnt have 2 of 3 people with walkie talkies confirming that you rounded a certain number of balls.

[MillerTime38]

I guess if you run it out of the boat then you can say that you are capable of skiing that line length. But if you are taking 3 cracks at it then finally run it when your driver gets tired of turning around to pick you up and decides to weave it up, then you are probably not capable at running that line length.....Makes me think of this guy that use to come by our lake, he would run 22 then shorten, miss 28 and still shorten, miss 32 and still shorten then fall three times at 1 ball at 35 and say at the end of his set he ran 1/2 @ 35.......And to make it worse he never brought beer

 

[PatM]

@MillerTime38‌ I have seen the same thing. Someone tells me that they have done such and such in practice. Then I ski with them and I say to myself, 'there is no way that guy runs such and such ever'. Unfortunately they are only lying to themselves. If you are not honest with yourself you will never improve.

[Horton]

@Moggie‌ any time any of us ski really good in practice we are happy about it and should be. This topic has been contentious in the past. On other sites in years past there was a lot of BS about skiing level (everyone runs 38 on the Internet) - I do not think that is the case around here at the moment & it sounds like you are pretty gounded. Congratulations on the new practice PB.

 

I was just sort of bursting to leak this news and then was humbled when the skier said to keep it on the downlow.

[swc5150]

From this prospective, promoting a product, I totally agree it only counts in a tournament. I'm not sure where I stand on the ongoing discussion on PB's only counting in a tournament? I get it, if you ski tournaments. I haven't to date, so my insignificant PB, in comparison to you guys, from practice is all I have.

 

With that said, in my 15 years of alpine ski racing USSA, my training performance didn't vary much from an actual FIS race. Nor did I care in the slightest if a guy skiing the occasional Nastar race tried to compare Nastar with FIS. I guess I just don't know why anyone cares if some wallys claim they can run shortline on the web? It has been a hot topic from time to time.

[andjules]

The hardliners have mistakenly tied two very different concepts together:

- practice PB (which—as we all know—counts for something, if to no one else but yourself)

- people who lie (about their practice PB)

[Horton]

@andjules‌ not very diplomatic but may be accurate

[Horton]

@swc5150‌ my practice PB and tournament PB were 4 balls a part for 3 or 4 years. I think this is typical when a skier is just on the verge of running a new pass

[Than_Bogan]

I cannot run -41, not with a fox, not in a box, not on a train, not a plane.

 

And not even on the internet.

[Brady]

Skiing a practice set and subsequently getting a PB is akin to a golfer out on a course on a sunny afternoon and playing either alone or with buddies and shooting a new best round. That is very different compared to shooting that same round in a tournament setting. the pressure turns a 5 foot putt into a monster-looking 15 footer.

 

Yes PB's are important, but it is much different when it truly counts. However if you are a hack like me when it comes to skiing, I will take all I can get and you can bet your ass I will take every inch and allowance to get a new PB!!! But that is like saying to the dude who just broke 100 on the course.....good for you!!!

[oldjeep]

@swc5150 The biggest difference is that in snow ski racing it only matters how you do against everyone else on any given day since the courses are never the same twice. No such thing as records in ski racing.

[adkh2oskier]

Maybe I'm lucky or just different from most, all my pbs have been at tournaments. My course may be off a bit so I always find tournament courses to be easier than the one I practice on.

[Ilivetoski]

@millertime38 I am a skier who can sometimes run 32 off out of the boat, and other times it takes me 2 or 3 tries. If what you are talking with skiers not running a pass then going to the next pass is happening, I completely agree that should not count... Thats not how you get to the next pass. BUT, lets say it takes me 2 times to run 32. then I go and get 1.55@35. I got all 6 buoys at 32 off. That is running it. So it counts. Being "capable" of running a line length means that you are "capable" of getting an entry gate, 6 buoys, and an exit gate in a course that is within tolerance and a boat that is within time. End of story. I did what I was supposed to do at the line length, and if I were to replicate what I did on THAT pass in a tournament I would advance to the next line. I really dont think it matters if you run a pass your first try or your second or third. You got 6 buoys. Therefore you are capable of again.

[DmaxJC_ski]

I can run 41 feet.... Then I have to stop for a corona and have a nap...

[swc5150]

@oldjeep‌

Agreed, however in FIS you are seeded by points based on historical finishes against your peers (pretty standard stuff). In timed training, I, for the most part, would finish the same against my peers as I did in actual races. This was the norm, regardless of course or mountain.

 

I'm just saying that using my personal history as a reference, I don't think my tournament scores would vary much from what I run in practice. I do know my scores wouldn't impress anyone on this site:) I'm also a professional musician, so maybe it's just that I'm used to pressure and watchful eyes?

 

Always an interesting discussion, but in the end, I just personally don't care if a keyboard commando or wally claim they can run a certain pass.

 

Now to JH's point, if one were to promote a product based a PB, it better be in a sanctioned tournament. Back to my alpine analogy, no one ever qualified for JO's via training runs.

[RichardDoane]

@Ilivetoski‌ - I had to disagree because you have to go "up the line" in sequence for a score to count in a tournament setting. Having a couple tries at your hardest full pass is not an option in tournament scoring.

[Moggie]

@richarddoane, if someone asked you what score are you capable of skiing, what would you tell them?

[Brady]

@Than_Bogan‌

but can you run it in the rain,

or would trying that make you insane.

You could lie, but that would then make you so lame.

You can you can run it today

Stay stacked stay tight hear what I say

Make sure your settings are a okay

The ski gods might let it happen your way

Then you can post on ball of spray!!!

 

 

[ozski]

We don't all ski for the same reason but if I run it behind a 200 with ZO in practice then I'm happy to take it. When you start to say "tournament only" then you have to define what a tournament actually is from one place / state / country to the next... Ok so it has the be RC to count? I enjoy the hell out of my good practice sets and try to learn from the bad ones and maintain my grin because I can still ski often. If you ski well in practice but tighten up and don't ski your best in a tournament you can still ski well. Be proud and don't let anyone take that away from you. Just keep smiling and be happy your on the water.

[Ilivetoski]

@richarddoane I am not saying that they would count in a tournament. What I am saying is if you can run the pass, you are not bound to run it the 2nd or 3rd time every set. If you can run it means you DO have the ability to do it out of the boat thus in a tournament.

[RichardDoane]

@moggie - I was pretty stuck at 1 @ 39 this past season, but hope to get deeper this next year

[bishop8950]

"Practice PB" = tournament format off the dock score with legit driving IMO

 

"Tournament PB" = self explainitory

 

What you run after several cracks at it or any non-tournament format is still important and interesting to know, especially if its the only time you have run a pass or something. I also remember things like the first time I ran a hard pass back to back or 3 times in a row. Badal sometimes goes 32 and opts to 39 in a stiff tail off the dock. If I pull that off I am sure I will remeber that as well. I think all this stuff is great/memorable/valid but fits a different meaning to me than "PB".

[Horton]

I will say it again. We all are pumped with a new Practice PB and we should be. Once the rope starts getting short things like boat path and the exact measure of the rope are a HUGE deal so when you throw down a big score at a tournament it is certified.

 

Couple of years ago I thought i was getting mid 39 and I did not understand how I was skiing so good. Rope was not even close to right length.

[ozski]

I have an InTow rope and handle...

[GOODESkier]

Every time I get to ski is the BEST regardless of if it is PRACTICE or TOURNAMENT. I had 2 tournaments this year where I ran 38 in practice, behind a certified driver, on a surveyed course, on the tournament boat the DAY/NIGHT before the tournament.............. I am capable of running 38 in a tournament. Just hasn't come to reality yet...... Can't wait to be dancing with @richarddoane‌ in 39.5 and keeping us both on our toes. Nothing better than working together to advance the buoy count!!!

[6balls]

@goodeskier been there, too, running 38 day before even in a significant tailwind at the tourney site. That tourney 38 is elusive and sure feels good when it falls...yours will come soon.

For some reason though I don't ski many tourneys, my tourney PB has been my PB for most of my life. Right now the tourney score is still my best ZO score.

[MillerTime38]

@livetoski if you're not running it out of the boat, then I would say you are not capable of running at a tournament 99% of the time. We all know there are times when the stars align and someone will go out in a tourney and run a pass they never sniffed before. In golf if I had a second shot everytime I would be a scratch golfer, but I don't go running around saying I am a scratch golfer....

 

[Chef23]

My OOTB PB and my tournament PB are within 1 ball of each other. I have run 35 once on a second crack at it after running 5 in the first try and it felt awesome. I realize that isn't the same as a tournament PB but it was a huge deal to me personally and if I can get healthy this summer hope to run 35 in a tournament.

[Horton]

@GOODESkier‌ we all know

[Ilivetoski]

@Millertime38 ok, lets put this into a golf perspective. Say that I am on #1 par 4, hit the green in 2. I have a 12 foot birdie putt. Nothing easy but definitely possible. Say you miss it by 1 1/2 inches. Then you make your par putt. All of the people I have ever played with would bring that ball back and do a quick adjustment for what they just messed up- purely for confidence. They dont change the score. Boom you just hit the same putt you just missed. Some hole later in the course- say you have a similar looking putt for a birdie. Well you just made the 12 footer on #1. Yeah you didnt hit it the first time but you hit it. So clearly you CAN do it. So you walk up, knowing you have already done this once today, and knock it in the cup for a birdie. If I were to tell someone "I dont think that you can hit this shot because you didnt hit it your first try earlier" that would be RIDICULOUS and false. What if its in a big tournament.. Masters 2012 I believe? When Adam Scott won... Do you think he hit that putt on 18 every time the first time in practice? I guarantee that if he tried that shot 10 times at home he would MAYBE hit it one or two times. Do you think that Tiger could hit his famous flop shot like he did at TPC idk... 10-11 years ago to win? My last example will be Bubba hitting his drive off the ground to get the par 5 in 2 at the masters when he won it the first time. He wont hit that shot 100% of the time even in practice.

[MillerTime38]

@livetoski you are obviously a golf enthusiast, as far as the examples you used.... I never mentioned anything about running the pass 100% of the time out of the boat in my original post did I? Nope, just went back and re-read...dont see anything about running it 100% of the time

 

"I guess if you run it out of the boat then you can say that you are capable of skiing that line length."

 

If you run 32 off out of the boat once in a while then yes you are capable of running it in a tournament because you ran it just like it would be required in a tournament. Just like Adam Scott only being able to make that putt two or three times out of 10 in practice...He made the shot in practice (assuming with no muligans) which means he is capable of making the shot....See the difference? Same with the Tiger and Bubba examples, these are shots these guys make routinely in practice and in big tournaments. No they do not make the shot 100% of the time, but they are capable of making the shot because they do make the shots in practice....without a muligan.

 

 

[gjohnson]

Please stop the golf comparisons. I care less about that particular diatribe than practice scores.

[Brady]

@gjohnson Okay, no more golf comparisons. As a professional bowler, hitting a strike in practice is very different than hitting that same shot in a match................(charlie brown. WA WAH WA WAH WAH WAH) :)

[Ilivetoski]

@Millertime38 You arent seeing the parallels. These players may take multiple attempts to hit the shots, we may take multiple attempts to run a certain pass. How many times do you think Tiger hits a flop shot like TWC into the cup in practice? I promise not often, even less in the cup on the first try. How often does Adam Scott hit those putts? Not often. 2 of my friends are D1 golfers (Indiana and Cincinnati) and one of them is ranked top 70 I believe in the country. During practice I see him mess up shots allll the time that he can hit with his eyes closed in a tournament.

 

@gjohnson Golf is a great sport to draw parallels to skiing... A lot of things between them are similar Aaron Larkin wrote an article in Waterski about how he plays golf and the similarities between golf and skiing

[Chef23]

To me the parallel isn't what @Ilivetoski‌ talked about repeating strokes but it is a practice round even one that you play straight up vs. a tournament round. Tournament golf is like a different sport and probably 90% of golfers have never even played a real medal play tournament round of golf.

[MillerTime38]

@livetoski I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. Your opinion on what professional golfers are able to do at practice means nothing.

 

Does this sound better...

If you have never run 32 off out of the boat at practice you are very unlikely to run 32 off in a tournament. end of my comments on this thread

 

 

[MillerTime38]

The only parallel between golf and skiing is they are individual sports that take an extreme amount of concentration and practice

[Ilivetoski]

@Millertime38 if you dont see any more connections between golf and skiing than individual sport and concentration and practice I can only assume that you have not played much golf.

 

@Chef23 when I say parallels I mean each one you have a certain "average" that you can normally live up to. In skiing its measured in terms of buoys/ feet off the rope and in golf it is measured in strokes. Someone who shoots in the 70's will not have a round in the 100's and someone who skis into 38 off will not start regularly missing 28 off (As in over and over in practice and tournaments). Both of them you have your own PB, something you really dont have the same of in other sports. Sure you might have a PB in points in a basketball game, but that is one aspect of the sport as opposed to golf or skiing in which your score refelcts your entire performance.

[6balls]

I don't care about golf. If it takes lots of shots to run a pass in practice, and even then it is infrequent...you may be capable of, but highly unlikely to, run it in a tournament straight down the line, surveyed course, ZO, driver in the middle, conditions including visibility at times variable. For this reason practice is different than tourney.

If I mention a practice PB...which I still think is a cool deal...that came straight down the line no double shots. If it took multiple shots...I'd put that in the post just so it's understood how it happened...I still may be excited about it. If it was on PP, I'd put that in the post, too.

If everyone is just honest about stuff and how it happened....it's all good.

[Brady]

@6balls All I can say is AMEN!

[ToddL]

I am always happy when I get through a new pass in practice, even if it was on the 3rd mulligan attempt with the boat at a slower speed. It is a stepping stone to progress. But, when I run that same pass behind ZO with perfect time, off-the-dock tournament set with no mulligans, I am ecstatic! When that same pass finally goes down in a tournament, vindication!

 

If a skier tells me that he/she ran a PB behind a ZO boat using a tourny set with no mulligans, it carries significant weight. It means, it is just a small matter of time before that score will appear in the books somewhere.

[Wish]

I ran 1@41 in practice straight up the line in October of 2008 on a Goode 9700. No one and I mean no one can take that away from me by saying it does not count in practice. Period..!

[Horton]

@‌wish

a) I am jealous

b) I notice that you mention it rarely if ever

 

The fact that you have a score so high & so much higher than your average but do not brag about it or obsess about it publicly puts you in the same category as the unnamed pro skier who inspired this thread. I find that admirable. You may or may not obsess about it privately - I would :)

 

After a lifetime in this sport I firmly believe that the struggle is the basically same at every level. For most of my skiing life my practice averages have been higher than my tournament averages. (2014 is the only slalom exception)

 

Back in my jumping days I think I had weeks where I routinely went 10 feet over my lifetime tournament PB. I never did it in a tournament, it totally bums me out. I put in a LOT of work and believe I achieved more than the score book says. Now I have to bite my tongue to not be guilty of "the older I get the better I was". Did I jump over 180 a lot in 1993? I sure can't prove it.

 

[Horton]

The more some Ballers hate this thread the more I have thought about it. I am afraid my closing comment might offend a whole new group but I am not smart enough to keep my mouth shut. Here goes.

 

For skiers whose scores are in the 15 to 28 off range I think maybe this whole idea is wrong. If you are working to run 15 off for the first time and you do, Hell yea that counts! It counts all freaking day long. The first time you ever run 6 balls is a MONSTER DAY. The first time you ever run a 32 off pass is equally HUGE. I remember mine. On the other hand the first time you do it in a tournament you will be (should be) prouder still.

 

When I say practice scores do not count I should modify that to say “As your level of skiing goes up the validation of official events should mean more.” Using me as an example I have a practice PB that is ½ a ball over my tournament PB but I really do not count it because I am not sure the boat path was prefect.