New Slalom Organization

[GregDavis]

Maybe it's time to start with a clean slate. You can't be every thing to everyone. I just re-newed my membership to USA Water Ski. $175. ( for wife and myself) we slalom only, go to several tournaments a year. In the past have participated in the Nationals, ( boring, long and drawn out, not much FUN ) That's it. We're only interested in Slalom. My guess is less than 10% of my dues goes toward Slalom activities or improving slalom etc. Things change, and smart people ( and organizations ) make adjustments and change as necessary to move forward. WHAT WE HAVE NOW, OBVIOUSLY IS NOT WORKING, SO TO KEEP DOING THE SAME THING AND EXPECT A DIFFERENT RESULT IS, NOT REAL SMART.

 

With a head to head format, All the slalom skiers ( all divisions) would be Big Dawgs ) I'm not down on tricks or Jump, however, lets be realistic, tricks and Jump probably takes up at least 50 or 60% of the time at a 3 event tournament. ( for 10 % of the participants) If the group of skiers who enjoy slalom want to have their own organization, and Slalom only Nationals, so be it. Others can do whatever they want. I'm not talking AWSA, or USA Water ski. I'm talking NSO ( National Slalom Organization ) or WSO ( World Slalom Organization) NEW FRESH IDEAS, NEW FRESH FORMAT, NEW FRESH LEADERSHIP, NEW FRESH SPONSORS, NEW FRESH ENTHUSIASM, ADD THE FUN FACTOR.

[randy meny]

Great idea Greg

 

[Tyler_R]

It is an interesting idea, but from the perspective of someone who has to sell events to sponsors every month I'm not sure a slalom only tournament is very exciting to potential viewers. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but i think we need to be careful about creating an event, that I've heard described by several people I've introduced to the sport, as "fun to do but as entertaining as watching paint dry."

 

I think that nationals should be 3 weekend events. One for each event, and that way you could play with the format a lot more. If you did that based upon last years divisions, in most cases trick and jump could almost be bracketed like the NCAA basketball tournament. And you could probably have a head to head finals for the slalom one.

[GregDavis]

Tyler, " I'm not sure a slalom only tournament is very exciting to potential viewers."

 

As far as Nationals three weekends, Not even a remote possibility.

 

Have you ever been to a Big Dawg finals, Head to Head? Not sure trick skiing is real exciting to viewers. Now Jump, yes, exciting, however incorporating Jump. ??? maybe , but limited sites and other logistics, would prevent Jump from being included.

 

At one time, I sold ALL sponsorship for Big Dawg events. Feedback from sponsors was off the charts positive.

[MattP]

@GregDavis How about trick skiing side by side in a head2head run? Like was done at the Extreme Water sports festival in Orlando a few years ago. I believe it was a flip off or there was not a limit on flips down and back down the lake.

[GregDavis]

Sorry if I seem selfish, I am interested in Slalom skiing, not interested in wakeboard, or show skiing, or tricks or Jump, and or, all the other stuff USA Waterski has control of. EXAMPLE, if I join a racquet ball organization. I don't want that organization spending my dues on Hand ball, or volley ball or anything but racquet ball. Racquet ball is my sport, There are many other examples; USA Water Ski pays plenty for insurance ( I'm sure the Jump on water ski lakes takes a big chunk of the insurance premium) the jump also takes lots of money and maintance from club members. However probably less than 10% of members Jump. 60% or more of the resources are spent on Jump.

[E_T]

I like the sound of a new world order

[eleeski]

Break the sport into smaller pieces? I hope not.

Eric

[kstateskier]

head to head slalom sounds fun. Especially if I get to ski more than one set. Traditional tournaments are boring.

[Tyler_R]

I've pitched trying to have a pro slalom only tournament to my 3 main livestreaming sponsors and they all keep saying no way. It's just my 2 cents

[gt2003]

Let's take @Tyler_R 's idea to another level... I'm not sure how many sites could handle the set up but what about slalom on one lake then have jump/wakeboard held on a seperate lake at the same location. Events could be staggered so all finals could be held at seperate times so spectators could rotate from lake to lake as needed to watch. This would let folks see all the good stuff in a shorter time period all in one location. That might even allow restructuring of slalom to allow more slalom runs per competitor? The difficulty would be with the multi-event skiers. But, someone smarter than I could likely figure that out.

[The_MS]

I am in.

[GregDavis]

Need Three Day Nationals, ( NATIONAL SLALOM ORGANIZATION) Slalom Only, Thur. Fri. and Sat. Qualifying Thur. and Friday. All Divisions, Head to Head Finals Sat. all divisions. Hugh banquet Sat. Night, everyone in attendance, At Banquet, Recognize skiers, Sponsors, etc.etc. There is nothing more important than the recognition of your accomplishment from your piers and from Industry sponsors. Look, I am not trying to take anything away from Trick skiers or from Jumpers, It's just that there simply isn't enough time, to make everyone happy, I am into Slalom, If there is enough interest in 3 event waterskiing, the three event skiers can do whatever they want. YOU CAN NOT BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYBUDDY. I Have absolutely no interest what- so-ever of watching Tricks or Jumping, ( unless Pro Jumping) I have no interest in waiting around all day for trick skiers and amateur jumpers to ski. I do not ask anyone who doesn't care about slalom to watch or stick around and wait for me, or participate.

[eleeski]

With the current format, I should not be more than 2 days to ski. Unless I skied MM - then I had some time separation. Or not, once I was scheduled to ski Open and my age division at exactly the same time - delayed one lake at Nationals by a half hour.

 

However, I have stayed for the entire tournament. As a worker. Very fulfilling. I don't have a lot of respect for those who show up to ski and leave.

 

To turn this diverse sport into just counting right and left turns so our big tournament is shorter seems counterproductive to the long term health of the sport.

 

Eric

[Horton]

I a going to use US National and Presidential politics as an analogy. This is not about US National and Presidential politics and I will simply delete ANY posts that are actually about US National and Presidential politics.

 

@GregDavis In 1992 Ross Perot helped got Bill Clinton elected by splitting the vote 3 ways. In the last few election cycles the Tea Party may have actually hurt the conservative movement by dividing the vote between establishment Republicans and Tea Party => allowing for Democrats to have an advantage.

 

My point is splitting off from the sick beast that is USAWS could hurt us more than save us.

 

I have been working in the background to start running tournaments under my own set of rules - not very different from the ones you propose. I am taking my time and trying to do it right. I hope to have one event in 2015 and four in 2016. After 2016 I do not know how big. I am using the same slow and cautious approach that built this web site from a few guys talking about fins to the biggest media source in the sport.

 

It will be a Baller oriented show that uses USAWS for basic rules, insurance and standards. Why reinvent the administrative part of the structure?

 

You are talking about starting from scratch. I would bet you a case of single malt that a lot of people will tell you what a great idea it is and then never join or participate.

[Shakeski]

I feel that this needs to be done (if at all) in stages. You can't just turn and flip the script all at once (as stated in the comments above). I feel that in the coming years slalom skiing is going to begin to see an overall increase in popularity again (more so than it has started to recently). It makes sense to do slalom only events for sure, it just needs to be tested to see how many people would really be on board first. I feel that it is spot on with the fact that for something like this many people would say they would be there and get involved, and then when the event day comes around, not be there (from a spectators perspective).

[GregDavis]

You can't just turn and flip the script all at once (as stated in the comments above).

 

 

WHY NOT?

[GregDavis]

" I think he meant a new league, not a new governing body, but I could be wrong"

 

George wrote above.

 

We need NEW GOVERNING BODY, FRESH NEW LEADERSHIP, FRESH NEW IDEAS, FRESH NEW ENTHUSIASM, FRESH NEW RULES. etc. Same old crap isn't cutting it.

[6balls]

I only ski multi-round slalom tourneys...this idea would fit. The only way I go to a nat's that I qualify for is multiple slalom rides. Some fun events surrounding would be cool as well.

 

Just a buncha slalom addicts hanging out.

[Horton]

@GregDavis I am behind you. If you can do it all at once you are a hero. Like @OB I just success is more likely one bite at a time (like eating an elephant). I have been meaning to talk to you about my "thing" but was not sure how locked in you are with your previous ski venture. Perhaps we should talk off line.

[GregDavis]

Lets talk, let me know when good time to call. or call me at 407-617-3417

[lpskier]

@Horton: Slalom skiers could be the Democrats in your analogy, with the trickers and jumpers being the Republicans that suffered from the third party/Tea Party candidate. I'm mostlty (99%) a slalom skier, but I'd hate to see something that jeopardizes the viability of trick, jump and overall.

[lpskier]

That does not mean that I am opposed to new good ideas to make water ski tournaments more user friendly, spectator friendly and fun, including rule and format changes

[rayn]

I really like the tournament format the BAHA( @Tim Vaio ) runs in Sacto. One day 3 pulls, of which 2 could be slalom, or 1 each slalom, trick and jump. Then the second day another 2 round slalom. Gives the majority what we want, but give the 3 eventers scores.

[eleeski]

@OB said it, "kids 3 event". Doesn't the new blood come from the kids?

 

FRESH IDEA: exclude the kids??

 

Sorry, too long in the convention booth on a slow day.

 

Eric

[rayn]

@OB My point is exactly that, it is a great set up for slalomers, versus slalom on one day and then tricks and jump on the next which is what we basically have here in the northeast.

[Horton]

For traditionalists 3 events is critical. Here in the West, trick and jump are hardly even on life support. I support three events but at some point you have to cut your losses and move on.

 

if you don't believe me about the trouble in California => go to the USA waterski website and look at the number of tournaments in California this year. There are very few tournaments to start with and hardly any of those are 3 event.

 

furthermore I can only think of two or three jump ramps in California that can be accessed by the public

 

[GregDavis]

My Point exactly John, Jump ramps increase insurance premiums, ( that us slalom skiers must contribute to), Jump ramps, create lots of expense for clubs, and lots of maintance. Jumping can only be done on sites that will accommodate Jumping. Lots of injuries for jumpers. Things change, sports change. Trick skiing is painfully boring to those who don't do it, small number of skiers participate in tricks vs slalom. Hey, if anyone who wants to keep three event going, have at it. Do your thing. but let us SLALOM skiers go. Let us go, change up, have FUN, EXCITING COMPETITION. WITH A FRESH START. As far as spectators, we all know, skiing is mostly a participant sport, getting large crowds of spectators is a reach. Unless we couple HEAD TO HEAD SLALOM COMPETITION, with some sort of festival. i.e. Moomba. Big Party atmosphere, BEER SPONSORS, etc.etc. It's really not about the spectators at this point, it's about the participants. If we ( as slalom skiers ) drive several hours to a tournament, maybe get Hotel, and only get to ski one round. Well, you ask why participation is down.? Or better yet, fly across the country to Nationals, rent a car, get a Hotel, and ski one round. And you ask why participation is down. How awesome would it be if slalom skiers could get at least 2 rounds, and have the possibility of skiing in the Head to Head with fellow slalom skiers. PARITY is important and competition is critical. The Head to Head format is TRUE COMPETITION.

[ALPJr]

Slalom only is cool and that is what my ski buddies and I do... But, Regionals and Nats - keep it traditional slalom, tricks and jump.... Local c class and novice/grass roots - add something for beginners like mini course, and create a new event like a timed random buoy/gate slalom that would require manufacturers to make new skis for quick short turns and cuts, and smaller more agile boats with outboard power.

[GregDavis]

Those who want to continue to ski three event, absolutely have at it. HOWEVER , those who choose to join the NSA, ( National Slalom Association) should be free to do so. Maybe some will ski in both.

 

Can you imagine Boys 1,2 and 3 and Girls 1, 2 and 3 Competing in the NSA Nationals, going at it against their piers, in a Head to Head format. Then getting recognized at the banquet by your fellow skiers. Getting to ski multiple times after paying Air fare, rent a car and hotel expense. All divisions would compete in Head to Head, it would be a percentage of total participants in a Division that would advance to the Head to Head Finals. i.e Mens 4 or Mens 5 might have 16 skiers in Head to Head finals, and Women's 7 might only have 2 skiers in Head to Head.

[GregDavis]

OK, enough for me, I'm going to go ride my dirt bike

[eleeski]

@Horton All the tournaments I go to are 3 event (or at least two) and my summer is full.

 

Tricks are definitely not dead. Visit Stan's lake on a summer afternoon and you'll find a trick fest happening. San Diego waters are busy with college kids learning the basic 660 run.

 

Imperial's west lake will have more trick and jump rides than slalom. Ironwood's jump is busy with hard core jumpers and the novice college kids.

 

Slalom is a surprisingly small part of the junior development days I have coached at. Three event is only dead in the old guy demographic. It's sad if this group kills all 3 event.

 

Eric

[The_MS]

@GregDavis We need to combine NSA with the Daytona Supercross

[jcamp]

Starting a whole new organization seems like a lot of work when just having 25 fired up, ready-to-volunteer people show up at regional and national board meetings would probably get you what you wanted.

[ALPJr]

How about 4 events... Super Slalom - no top speed limit, stratght boat path, single length rope, skier negotiates 6 random buoy-gates within a specified distance from course centerline. Skier picks starting speed and after each complete pass speed increases 2 mph. Seeding is based on time trials - round 1 day 1. The fastest complete pass on day 2 wins.

[Horton]

@alpjr yes sounds fun but whacky is not what is needed at the moment.

[GAJ0004]

Tournament participation has to be dropping due to the cost of the sport. I would hate to be a promo boat owner because of the pressure to sell a boat and to get a new one every year. If they stop holding events where there is trick skiing I will probably retire from competition. I stopped into my local Nautique dealer to get an idea of pricing. The sales rep assumed right off the bat I was looking for a wakeboard boat. The boating public's interest has shifted to wakeboarding. The new generation that would be coming up in skiing is wakeboarding instead. I our sport is slowly fading away partly due to cost, and lack of interest.

[GregDavis]

Lack of interest and tournament participation is dropping , because tournaments are boring, and lacks real competition. One thing is for sure, if we continue down the same old path. doing the same stuff we did 45 years ago, you are correct, sport is doomed.

[gt2003]

Are there an adequate number of sites with multiple lakes in close proximity that could host slalom on one lake and trick/jump on another lake? Would "dedicating" a lake to slalom allow for multiple rounds for everyone while trick/jump do their runs on a separate lake? I'm thinking bringing ALL folks together at these sites would do wonders for the vendors as they could market their goods to all 3 groups. This would likely increase those willing to provide sponsorship. You could throw a party each night or just the final night and have everyone attend. Seriously, Budweiser or coors light, charge $10 for wrist band and they would likely come out ahead (except me, I'd break their bank).

 

Cons: How to help multi-even competitors "make it work", How to schedule FINALS of each event so all multi eventers could participate and all spectators could watch. Heck, I'd watch the finals of all events for the show, even if I had no interest in participating in the sport.

 

Pro's: More sponsors if they see a benefit to marketing to all 3 groups, more participants as they could ski multiple rounds, more attendees as they would have more vendor booths and would be able to watch the best of the best, tournament would take fewer days.

 

Just thoughts from someone who has never attended an event and doesn't known what's available I'll have to rely on you folks for that. Thoughts?

[T-fromTO]

If anyone can pull this off it is Greg Davis. His energy, enthusiasm and hard work are contagious. Look what he was able to do with the Big Dawg in a relatively short time. I think he can do it again with his NSO. I believe he could build it bigger and possibly faster than he did the Big Dawg because he will be drawing from a much larger pool of potential participants.

[andjules]

Food for thought (don't get me wrong, @GregDavis has a valid point): http://ballofspray.com/home-v16/skiers-4/detrick/1813-trip-to-washington-ho-skis-headquarters-borderline-lake

Brian Detrick: "I learned that almost everyone in Canada three events; despite your age."

While I think that's a vast exaggeration, it makes you wonder how almost every other country has managed to keep a healthy 3-event culture. That said, I respect that the U.S. has a larger competitive ski scene than the rest of us can imagine. Just stirring the pot ;-)

 

[ALPJr]

Whacky, I'll give that @Horton. Probably dangerous as hell too.

[Intheday]

From a long way outside and with a zero knowledge and care factor. If something needs to change and the infrastructure (organisation) is in place then a well organised joining of the group will most likely get control and therefor ability to implement changes The last thing any small industry/sport needs is to fragment as then you have less influence whith sponsors participants and government/regulators

 

By all means push for change but take control or make it easy gor your alternative view to be adopted

[EricKelley]

Greg,

I think you are spot on. This is one of the reasons we created the IN HIS WAKES head to head. I am dismayed with the dysfuntion of USA waterski and the Southern Region. Time for new beginnings. I am in.

[eleeski]

Totally ignored in this rush to make the sport an old guys exclusive cigar club are the realities of waterskiing today. The sport is shrinking at every level - as are most outdoor activities. Costs, regulations and alternative entertainments all take their toll. Keeping what is left of the sport vibrant is a critical challenge.

 

Big Dawgs was a great show for a couple years. But expansion into the Lady Dawg left the high level older female skiers I know a bit miffed by the arbitrary qualifications and rules. Last summer's Big Dawg finals debacle highlighted petulant skiers, feuding sponsors and bad officiating. Interesting show but not valid relevant competition. It certainly makes one wonder about old guy slalom skiers and whether they should be the future of the sport.

 

There are orders of magnitude more wakeboarders than traditional skiers. Why not bring them into our sport? FRESH IDEA: adjust the trick rules to allow/encourage wakeboards. Really easy; allow hookups to towers (allow/encourage towers), allow unrestricted wakeboards and change the rules to give credit for wakeboard tricks (grabs, jumps and flair).

 

Finally, head to head is the WORST format for developing skiers. The top guys get lots of fun rides but it really sucks to get bounced in the first round. Proper seeding and the consistency of the top skiers assure that skiers of less skill will lose. Great incentive to keep those developing skiers in the sport?

 

Fragmenting the sport to the advantage of old slalom skiers is a terrible idea.

 

Eric

[Chad_Scott]

Increasing competition at any level is a good idea having the opportunity to have 2 children in the sport, i believe head to head can increase participation if we incorporate head to head for our junior level skiers it would make tournaments much more interesting juniors would have the opportunity to compete as they do at other sanctioned sport I believe we are losing juniors skiers in the sport because tournaments under the current format are boring. Ski a round wait several hours to ski again not much fun when we are trying to keep juniors from other competing sports Last year at the InHisWakes tournament, I saw how much fun the younger skiers were having in the head to head competition. I mean lets face it thatnis why the old cigar club as was put, really enjoy the big dawg format. We need more competition based formats. I think it would bring more life to boring tournaments. Head to head can be incorporated into all 3 events i wanted to do a 35 an older air dawg tournament and watch those tennessee nasty boys get nasty. A qualifying round and then head to head jump. Two boats, two jumpers, one jump each. Second jumper must beat first jumper.

[Chad_Scott]

One big run on sentence typing on phone while watching a biddy basketball game. My apology but yiu can get point lol

[Horton]

@Chad_Scott get me a date. ...

[DrDave]

I think a National Slalom Organization is an awesome idea! I especially like the idea of the head to head format in tournaments. More fun to watch and gives the "little" guy at least some chance of winning. LOL. Let's face it the traditional tournament format is LONG, BORING, and you pretty much know already at every tournament who is going to be on top at the end of it (at least between 1-2 people max for each division I'd guess). I don't know if dividing the "events" up is the way to go, but it is definitely true that few are involved in "3 events" as compared to slalom. If all slalom skiers who did not jump or trick left AWSA (USA Waterski) for a National Slalom Organization, I would guess that would be the end of the AWSA(USA Waterski). I'm not sure if that would be a good thing or a bad thing.

 

I do know I have struggled with rejoining USA Waterski every year since 2009. I have continued to do so, but do not really know why I rejoin? There really isn't anything in it for a guy like me who loves to ski, but isn't a "big Dawg" skier or even truly competitive on a National level. I can qualify for Nationals, but might finish in the bottom 25 % of guys there on a good day..LOL.

 

I rejoin to "support" the sport. But at some point one has to ask, what are they doing for me for my 175$ a year.

 

A new NSO would be interesting to see and I would almost certainly join. Just my 2 cents. :)

[Horton]

@eleeski if you do not like the proposed solutions from Greg or myself I suggest you organize your own thing.

 

(I do not mean this in a sarcastic or snarky way)