reflex double boot WHY or why not

[giddyup]

i see that reflex has a double boot with releases, but i dont see them out there, i like the reflex idea but not sure, i have been happy with my strada boots but am looking for a change as they are getting warn. Any insight to this, i know you would not want the rear to release with out the front but how is that different to an rtp. Could you not just set the release settings according. Someone tell my why or why not

thanks

giddyup

[DefectiveDave]

Why Not:

Release mechanism takes up a lot of space, both front and back. It's difficult to get your feet relatively close together without compromising the front release.

 

Why:

I've got nothing except Terry Winter seems to be using this configuration now so maybe there's something to it. Most people use an RTP or loose fitting Wylie type binder in the back.

[OKSkier]

I've been using Reflex front and Strada rear with great results. No issues with release even though I do have the Strada toe jammed up to the front release mechanism. Only issue is that you can't put your rear tow right up against the front boot.

[wolfgang]

I love my now aging connelly F1 with Enzo double boots. A couple of years ago I summer saluted at #3 and ripped the rear boot out of its screws. Couldn't ski for two weeks, black and blue,had to buy a new boot. Now I'm not tightening either binding nearly as much, especially the rear....Call me chicken. I actually enjoy the slightly freer rear heel.

[eleeski]

Why: comfort and safety.

 

Why not: complexity and performance.

 

Many will argue that hardshells are higher performance but I find them restrictive and harder to balance. Especially on the rear foot.

 

I believe Reflex has a rear boot with no cuff. Great idea (I'm using something similar). For me as RFF and right handed, I just want the safety of no flailing back foot in a fall along with the range of motion a toe kicker offers. My cuffless rear boot offers that. My foot comes out reasonably easily with the boot bolted to the ski but stays in during most low energy falls (works properly).

 

The Reflex front is great. It is the standard for tricks for a reason. Personally the Radar (which is a bit softer) suits my preference for slalom better than a hardshell but when I used hardshells I was able to modify them to a softer flex.

 

Radar boots rock! Tighten the bungee appropriately (loose) and the safety and flexibility is great. It takes a while to adapt to any boot setup. All boots can work well after you get used to them. Performance is from the skier not the equipment.

 

Eric

[Terry Winter]

Double Reflex works very well in my opinion. I can adjust the spring settings front and back and set the achilles strap length differently. I go loose in the back and tight in the front with achilles straps. I have several skiers here in Idaho that have moved to the Reflex double set-up and all seem to really like them. Why- I prefer to have consistency with front and back boot, not two different releases or binding tightness. The Reflex bindings have an achilles strap, rather blow out of the boots than blow an achilles. I am constantly testing different skis and binding placement settings and I can move my boot placement or ride any ski without losing release/holding strength.

[swerveit]

Used double reflex for 2 years couple of ankle tweeks nothing serious. Then had a fall, the rear release popped and the front didn't resulting in my toes touching my shin. Busted allot of tendons and bones. NEVER again. I now use the Connelly stealth's they are unquestionably the best binding for me.

If you're looking at independents releases have a look at OB4 the build quality is phenomenal.

[giddyup]

any advice on how to set up the release, could not find anything out about setting up the tension

[Andre]

@giddyup

[eleeski]

I hate premature releases. The potential for injury is really high when you release. Sometimes staying all in is safer than releasing. So I personally prefer a fairly high release setting.

 

The Silveretta clip is an all or nothing system. You are either fully engaged or completely off. Wakes, rollers and other twitchy things can shock a release. Perhaps needed but both boots need to release at the same time. The difficulty specifying double boot Reflex release numbers is that whatever number you choose, if one releases the other still needs the full torque to subsequently release. OB4, Powershells and Gatormod release both when one releases. Many feel that one in and one out is very dangerous.

 

Toe kickers, loose rubber rears and loose Radars (and Reflex cuffless) should not break away from the ski. They always have you attached to the ski but very loosely. When the front goes, the rear will probably let the foot go as well. Double hardshells are a challenge.

 

There may be performance advantages to a toe kicker so I'm trying to get my rear boot closer to that - but that's a different topic.

 

Eric

[mmosley899]

I have been using a double hardshell release system for 20+ years. No problems...

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

If go double shell, gotta go OB4 (or Gatormod). Soo much safer release.

[drewski32]

I've been looking at the r-style rear to go with my reflex front. I'm currently on the HO lace-up rtp, and my big toe goes up under the release and almost on the back of the front boot. I'm a little concerned about changing my ankle spacing, as well as the safety.

[BlueSki]

I tried the r-style and did not get a clean release. That resulted in surgery. I am now off the r-style. Your concern over safety is justified. (Insert standard disclosure that skiing is inherently dangerous and no system is perfectly safe.)

[PT Mike]

@BlueSki were you running the r style buckles tight like Mapple suggests or we're you running them loose? I'm currently trying out the Reflex w/ r style as I was on Fogmans for quite a while. Not sure the r style is giving me enough ankle support I need to ski pain free. I might cut up my Fogman and try that in place of the r style. Seems the heel cup on the Fogman offers some rigidity to the shell.

[mmosley899]

@PT Mike the heel cup on the Fogman definitely adds rigidity to the shell. You can put your Fogman boots with the heel cup directly onto the OB4 System for the safest release available. I have mounted these for customers and will be glad to advise you on doing it on an OB4 System.

[BlueSki]

@PT Mike I was running the R-style tight like Mapple suggested, likely because I am used to double high wraps and I need to feel that my heel is secure. I tried a thinner liner once that was too loose and skied horrendously. I think my old EXO liners, which felt somewhat secure, released better than the reflex liner. The fundamental problem with the Reflex is that you are dealing with two different release systems in one fall, albeit with varying forces on the front and back foot.

 

I switched to OB4 and felt at home as I started to ski again with some recovery. I like how the OB4 can better accommodate differing forces during a fall.

[fox197]

Hi guys. first time poster here. Im currently trying to decide between double reflex or double ob4 hardshells. Im coming from ex pros. Any suggestions. cheers

[MattP]

@fox197 Welcome!

I assume those are the HO release binding system boots. I would look at mounting them to the OB4 system not only would you save some serious coin it is a much safer system. I have ridden both and greatly prefer the releasability of the OB4 over Reflex.

[BlueSki]

I second @MattP.

[BlueSki]

The HO EXOs would take some serious grinding to flatten the base and put on an OB4. The EXOs have a rail down the middle and a "canal" down the middle of the boot to accommodate the rail. The Roxa hardshell from OB4 would likely be an easy transition.

[MattP]

It can be done. @mmosley899 Has set them up before.

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/529bd2cde4b0a5b6da08a31f/53419e6be4b0f77e1bd44d10/551311cee4b09ee138574658/1427313104605/photo%2B2.JPG?format=300w

 

[BlueSki]

Nice! Given Mike's customer service, I am not surprised.

[AggieSkier]

EXOs custom fitted by OB4 Systems.

 

 

[fox197]

@MattP @AggieSkier @BlueSki thank you guys for the feedback. My only problem now is my exos are currently sitting on the bottom of our lake(long story). So i will possibly have to go the roxa boots. Im slightly disgruntled at HO for not continuing with the exo system. Im a big fan of both feet being on one rail when detatched.

 

[mmosley899]

@fox197 the separate release for each foot is much safer than both being on one plate. I'll be glad to set you up with a new system from OB4.

[PT Mike]

@BlueSki thanks for the input, I'm currently running intuition liners and only have a couple of sets on the r style. @mmosley899 thanks for the offer, I might pick your brain a bit more as Ive been on the OB4 website a bunch but I've never seen one in the flesh nor know of anyone using the system. Are there any components that wouldn't mix well with salt water?

[GOODESkier]

I do not like the idea of my feet independently attached to a ski. I want both feet doing the same thing in a release. My worse fear would be one foot still attached to a ski in a fall. That is the reason I like a double hardshell on a connected plate that releases all at once with both feet doing the same thing.

 

Some people find the interlock to be troublesome, but it works.

[mmosley899]

@GOODESkier the problem with both attached to a plate is one foot/leg may be over stressed to injury before the force to release both occurs. Unfortunately several of my friends have had this happen. Interlock is not only troublesome, it is not consistent. The OB4 system allows for a consistent release setting on each foot which means that each foot releases once the force is great enough to cause injury to that foot. One foot still attached and causing an injury in a fall will not happen with OB4.

 

@PT Mike the OB4 components are anodized aluminum and stainless steel, same as most other binding parts. As with any other sports equipment, washing with fresh water after use in salt water is recommended.

[Deanoski]

Goodeskier steve, I have never seen you crash OTF. but independent release is much better than a single plate a single plate puts alot of streess on the front foot in a OFT. even more so with a goode power shell since the back foot is allowed to rise up this delays the velcro release even more. putting a longer duration of stress on the front foot its not always the amount of pressure that injures us its the duration of the pressure that gets you.

 

Deano

[Than_Bogan]

@GOODESkier I used to think exactly that way, but through both evidence and analysis I have completely changed my thinking. I've seen a LOT of torn Achilles on single-plate systems. Because the back boot cannot release independently, the forces in a crush stop cause the front boot to hold the entire plate down while your rear knee continues forward and your Achilles is the weak point. Somewhere on here there's a crazy photo of a single plate that (thankfully) bent in half because of exactly these forces, but the more typical failure point under that huge force is the Achilles.

 

The Gatormod harness is a brilliant way to prevent that particular injury, but there are other dimensions to consider, and having each foot be able to release whenever the forces on that foot are dangerous is as close to the Holy Grail as anybody has gotten at this time.

 

We really have to rethink on this one, because all traditional bindings were Wicked Dangerous if you somehow got left with one foot in, because they cannot release laterally. The OB4 system can and will release due to rotation or lateral force. (I've demonstrated this by catching the handle on my ski tip...)

 

Clearly, it will never become impossible to get hurt. But I truly believe the OB4 system is the largest safety improvement our sport has seen in a long time. Indeed, I made a transition from rubber (for 40ish years) to shells just so that I could get that safety improvement. I'm accustomed now, but it took a lot of time, and I persevered solely because of the safety.

[Than_Bogan]

PT Mike: I hope to make the July John's Pond and will be MORE THAN HAPPY to show you my setup. (In fact, try to stop me... :smile: )

[BlueSki]

@PT Mike is the PT a reference to physical therapy?

[rockdog]

Got a pic @Than_Bogan ?

[Than_Bogan]

Picture of what? Looking for that bent binding? My setup? Other?

[rockdog]

Your setup.

[Than_Bogan]

@rockdog My "guide" includes a picture of the setup mounted to my ski:

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1M3z1wtYSyhHVQGdpaH_UOD2dEW0jhYlMHtD0eoizspg&authuser=0

 

But in this case, a static picture really doesn't do the system justice. Seeing the way the release works in person is what really drives it home.

[swerveit]

I had a lengthy convo the other day with a ski buddy about the release mechanism. which we both agreed on is prehistoric! baring in mind we drop 2k on a ski and we are using 40 year old tech on release mechanism's and its only half on the original design!?!

its doesn't make sense to me... especially in a sport that the crash can happen in so many ways with multi directional forces, why would you use a system that has only 1 direction of force to trigger the release?? I'm baffled...

[Hipsup]

I've never used a reflex and therefore I'm not aware whether there is a real performance advantage to using them or not but they are certainly popular!

Given that their release is no safer than a traditional rubber boot in that they can't release laterally I just don't understand why they remain so popular when a properly engineered solution like OB4 is available.

If there was a clear performance advantage and you were a top pro then I could sort of understand the safety compromise, but for everyone else I just don't get it. Lemmings maybe?

[akale15]

I am in a similar situation as @fox197 when it comes to choosing between a Reflex or OB4. I have been looking at changing from double high wrap HO animal bindings to a hard shells. Gathering from the conversations posted here it seems OB4 seems to be the preferred and potentially safest choice but agree with @Hipsup that the Reflex boot is very popular. Not getting to ski as much as I would like to right now the thought of loosing any time on the water due to an injury is the last thing anyone wants to do. Cost always is a big factor for me but it seem the investment with hard shell bindings is definitely money ahead between the actual construction of the boots and potential medical cost. They are obviously well liked too as I don't seem to find any used options out there. Guess I better start saving my pennies and give them a go next year.

[mmosley899]

@akale15 The Reflex system has been the most available hardshell release in the marketplace for several years. The OB4 System brand has only been available for one year. The OB4 System is a new improved version of a system which I have skied on for 22 years now without a single release injury. My kids grew up skiing on this system also, and they still use it too.

[eleeski]

Perhaps the real question is whether you want a release at all. Just attaching the boot to the ski is non trivial. Reflex does that quite well. OB4 may be a better release but it is heavier and maybe more complex than Reflex. I'm not sure of the cost.

 

The engineer in me really likes the OB4. I got some of the critical parts of the OB4 and will try to make an ultralight version. When I find time?! Eventually...

 

Eric

[skinut]

@hipsup I think the reason that OB4 are not more popular is that they are relatively new. Reflex has been around for quite some time and have been increasing in popularity. I'm guessing if the OB4's hold up and they can market the product that they will be more popular.

 

A couple of years ago I switched from Powershells to Reflex due to safety. I am a lemming in the fact that I had a lot of positive reviews of the Reflex safety characteristics and wanted to lesson injures. I certainly wasn't trying to follow a fad. Had the OB4 been in production I would have gone with that system. I love the Reflex but I agree that the OB4's are safer in certain types of falls.

[akale15]

Makes sense @mmosley899, guess I didn't realize they were that new. I haven't been looking at replacing my bindings for quite some time but as I did the old ski inspection preparing for this summer I am starting to get to the point where I am going to need to soon. Haven't read a negative review yet from the research I have been doing here recently. That means good business for you!

[mmosley899]

@eleeski let me know if you come up with any means to lighten the system! I would certainly appreciate the input, especially if it can be done without adding to the production costs. Be careful with the boot plate part, there must remain certain longitudinal and torsional rigidity to work properly. If you need more parts let me know.

[MrJones]

Just throwing in my $0.02

 

Reflex just works. For years I thought the attachment system looked kind of puny and couldn't imagine using it. After a broken ankle in Powershells and then using Stradas for a year I gave the Reflex and R style a try. Outstanding! I feel the support that I had in Powershells with a better release than in either of the others. I know things can happen in any system, but since switching I haven't even felt a twinge in my ankle with any fall/release. (Actually knocked on wood when I typed that btw :) )

 

Some have trouble switching to the R style rear, but if you make up your mind to do it there should not be an issue. If anything I might try a kicker at some point, but I am done searching for bindings.

 

There are obviously lots of binding systems that work, but if you want to put something on your ski, forget about it, and work on getting better, I don't think you can go wrong with Reflex + R style.

 

 

[sfriis]

@mrJones: I have used double reflex the last couple of years but miss the feeling of the back foot closer to the front... I might try the R style;

1. do you think it supports the foot/ankle enough? (I never could ski with an open rear toe..)

2. 2. what is "a kicker" (you might try)?