What's wrong with competitive skiing?

[LeonL]

We have a floating course and we have it surveyed on occasion. It's within record capability. If I couldn't have our course and ropes at proper measurements I just would not sponsor a tournament. As for driving I just don't think there's much weaving going on, at least none around here. Not to say I don't see incompetent driving, but mostly it seems to hurt skiers not help them. As to the guy who couldn't run within a pass of what he could at his site.....you'd be surprised how many people just buy a rope (maybe a cheap no name one) and never check the length.

[Chef23]

@9400 I understand your point about people with bad scores but my argument is who are they hurting. They would show up at a tournament and not ski well and if they ever went to Regionals or Nationals they would obviously not perform well. The USGA has a mechanism to prevent people with obvious vanity handicaps from signing up for events for a period of years. It used to be if you signed up for a US Amateur qualifier and didn't shoot with in 10 strokes per round of the leader then the USGA had the option of rejecting your application the following year.

 

Now if there was some sort of handicapped event and people were sandbagging that would cause a different issue.

[skidawg]

@richarddoane ....choke factor is big at regional/national events, but a bigger factor (especially in slalom) is not having drivers that are accustom to driving shortline slalom. I have participated in many events over the years and had drivers at big events that never pull 39 off slalom, but are rated 3 evt drivers, so they get the call. Why not put on a class C tourney, rated driver, two judges in the boat, times recorded. 2 judges can certainly count to 6 and cover gates as well as any worries over cheating. That would save 1 less judge and setting up towers.

[boarditup]

How about this: On a previously measured course, a class F with one boat judge and a trained driver can post a score that "counts" toward the rankings and qualification for State and Regionals.

 

This gives a lot of flexability to run tournaments with little overhead requirements but keeps the potential inflated scores in check. If the participants can use their experience to qualify for other official qualifications, even better.

[klindy]

@boarditup Rule 3.06 already includes class F tournament scores as long as they don't exceed level 5 cut off score. It says "a class F (Grassroots) score above zero may be included in the Ranking calculations if it does not exceed the Level 5 cut-off average from the previous Ski Year Rankings. Those class F scored which exceed the level 5 cut-off average may be included but the score will be reduced to equal the level 5 cut-off average".

 

Further rule 6.03 F says - "a class F (grassroots) tournament may be limited to an assistant judge, an assistant driver, and a state safety director." To add jumping a regular driver is needed.

 

Further (since this is probably largely about slalom) rule 10.08 C.1.f says - "in Class F (grassroots) tournaments, the number of judges shall be at the option of the chief judge. Slalom may be judged by the boat judge alone."

 

States and Regions are allowed to set their own performance criteria to be eligible for the State or Regionals tournaments. Likewise, once a score hits the ranking list, except for the deductions taken for fewer than three scores, any score carries equal weight.

 

So, in some cases what you're recommending already applies (some State tournament and some Regionals - at a minimum level 4 scores are used for overall calcs and 2nd/3rd event eligibility). Granted a M4 score somewhere into 38off isn't going to post from a class F tournament but the cut off score last year was 78.75 which is almost 1@28off.

 

Since the rules are in place to do what you suggest, perhaps what needs to happen is an adjustment of what qualifies in the ranking list or not. Suffering adding the "previously verified course" or simply moving the cut-off score to include levels 5,6 and perhaps level 7 may achieve what your suggesting. Either way 90+% of what your suggest exists today.

[RichardDoane]

@skidawg - that scenario of a driver's lack of shortline experience should be handled by the Chief Driver scheduling the appropriate butt for the seat during your group, just because you have the rating, doesn't mean your the best man for the job

[skidawg]

Agreed @richarddoane but egos get in the way and I have actually seen chief drivers put themselves or buddies in the driver seat of big events when there were more qualified drivers, the human condition is quite disturbing

[ForrestGump]

Yep, that's even been seen at Regionals!

[LeonL]

Just because a driver gets appointed to Regionals for example, sure doesn't mean he/she is qualified. It's kind of a popularity contest or merely name recognition. The rules being such as they are (must be a regular or senior in all three events) eliminates some very good slalom drivers. It shouldn't be that way, seeing as how the number of slalom pulls is far greater than the other two events. I lobbied (feeling that I'm good enough) for a change or exception based on the rule (select from the best qualified) to no avail. The most common objections heard was "we need to be able to shift drivers here and there on short notice and we can't do that if not three event qualified". They also mentioned needing an extra driver if one is only slalom qualified. Holds no water, again due to number of slalom pulls compared to others.

[ToddL]

I like the F sanction idea, where scores count towards rankings. I was not aware of that, and I suspect I am not alone in that regard. However, why cap it at level 5? That really limits who can participate in some areas. It would be great if all skiers at "never run" 35 off and below could participate. Given the way that ranking lists works, the level cut offs vary greatly by division in terms of line lengths. Maybe simply raising it to level 6 could allow for more participation. You need it sufficiently high to allow for experienced individuals to participate as judge or driver. Plus, you'd want about 80% of your local skiing population to be able to compete.

 

Plus, the LOC could have additional elements like mulligans (not scored for AWSA, but for on site awards) which adds to the fun, or organize the starting order by ability levels with local ability dividions and awards. Hmmm, a truky fun tournament with minimal officiating, which works for both novices and lower ranked C skiers, and where scores still count towards ranking... Sounds like like a great plan!

[kfennell]

@shaneh @LeonL Be careful voicing those opinions if you ever want to drive again in a tournament or the Good old boy network will just cut you out of driving, ask me how I know!

[LeonL]

Im already cut out so WTF.

[ForrestGump]

The places where I get cut out don't matter to me, to be quite truthful. I can go to plenty of R tournaments and drive if I so choose.

[thompjs]

@ShaneH I didn't know you could drive!

 

 

[ForrestGump]

I guess that depends on if you ask someone I just pulled into 41 off or someone that just fell at 28 off. The answer could vary, Jim! lol

[thompjs]

I have the same success rate

[The_MS]

@ShaneH can pull me any time.

[gt2003]

Had to revive the thread as I was searching for slalom lakes to ski in Oklahoma and found this on wakescout. Under "club requirements for participation", here is what it says (copied and pasted) Club requirements for participation: Tournament level skiers only, please. Damn, I wonder why participation levels may be declining. Is this attitude rampant? In the clubs defense, it did say at the top that the club "hosts waterkiing and slalom events for enthusiasts of any skill level.". However, being a total newbie, I was immediately turned off by the "club requirements for participaition". It surely wasn't a welcoming tone.

[Broussard]

The problem is that our sport is not accessible enough. I know people that would be interested in tournaments but these days slalom courses are few and far between due to laws, permitting, and "no wake zones." If we want to grow the sport, we need to make it more accessible on public water.

[bkreis]

@gt2003 in MIami, the majority of club members are not tournament skiers, just people who LOVE to ski, tube, wakeboard/skate, barefoot, etc.. I guess it depends on what the club stands for. In Miami, it's the love of the sport!

[skihard]

@ShaneH you go hard you window licker! I'd gladly hang on to the handle behind any boat you were steering!

I spend lots of time looking at the back of Jim's head already! :)

 

Cheaters exist everywhere in every sport or in anything where there is challenge and competition. You can sandbag all you want but eventually you get what's coming to you which is usually a good kick in the nuts and karma usually does it to you with the people you are trying to cheat against looking at you in your state of shame.

 

If we compared our sport to golf and based our handicaps on runs, both practice and tourny's, it would give a person a true representation of how good they really are or rather the level they are at?

 

Sure I can have be a 10 handicap golfer and plug scratch scores into the computer to make me look like a better golfer. But when going to tournaments and getting flighted with scratch golfers ..........................I will look like a complete idiot! KARMA!!!

 

It's like me skiing against you Shane head to head..............I don;t stand a chance based on ability yet we are close in age.

 

I love skiing and I'm the weakest skier in our community yet I ski all the time with everyone and love it. Bad days on the water mixed with good ones and keep hacking away at trying to improve.

That said I won't drive an hour or two or more to attend a tournament because I can't compete with the system set up the way it is. The INT isn't a common circuit or loop (even the web site is out of date).

 

If they want growth changes are necessary as they are in every sport.

[disland]

I like the idea of changing the rule to allow class F to count up thru level 8.

 

1. Simple

2. Easy to get approved (no IWWF involvement)

 

I will submit a rule change request thru the SCR process

[Jody_Seal]

@skihard

"If they want growth changes are necessary as they are in every sport."

 

This is not the first time I have heard this..

 

There can not be a single focus on why three event skiing has fallen by the wayside membership/tournament participation wise. However the status quo that resides in the leadership roles are content with the way things are and the way things have been. Most could care less about any kind of growth as it may compromise either the status they have gained or compromise their special interest activity's. and in some cases only providing a job for some.

 

Changes:

one of the first changes that needs to be made with in the sport is the realization that three event skiing is dynamically different then the other sport groups that are lumped in the organization parent body. For instance US tennis association does not oversee or sanction ping pong nor badminton yet all three are net sports played in a similar fashion yet dynamically different. the best thing that could happen to the sport of three event water skiing at this conjunction is for AWSA to pull away from USAWS and determine their own destiny unhampered by the other sport groups and umbrella organization. The USAWS experiment has been a overall failure in many members eyes.

 

Next is for AWSA to change the policy or rule that states there shall be no distinction between amateur and professional. How do we expect the younger jr skiers to develop into a professional level if the national sanctioning body does not recognize professional level nor does not propagate or promote it?

 

We have excessive rules in all three events or the perceived cheating that we have written rules to prevent? who cares if a skier makes it to the regionals or nationals because he got a slower time or the driver was gracious? when they get to the Championship tournaments the rules are strict and driving is tight... Period and the best skier wins that day! OH! wait the rankings list deal ya... Skier A in BF egypt got the drive swerve and Skier B in Back water metropolis got the straight up, yet skier A has a higher ranking score, well that goes back to what happens at the championship tournaments. Over the years it has been my experience that overall tournaments are run on the up and up, rules are adhered to and drivers aspire to drive to the best of their ability.

This year alone the request came from the Nationals LOC to figure out how to boost skier participation.. The best thing that can happen is to eliminate the rankings system and go back to true tournament qualification criteria. At least install a second qualification system like a trials situation.

 

Skier divisions. this one may have one of the biggest impacts upon lack of skier participation then any other. we have divided our skier divisions up into far to many chunks and we allow the more elite level skiers the ability to drop down from elite competition ( especially in slalom) to age group. we see a large number of 34 mph elite/ high level 9 skiers that should be skiing in the MM division dropping back to age division at the regionals and nationals. This frustrates quite a number of skiers that just decide not to participate.

Regular weekend tournaments for the most part do not really have a competition feel, it is more of a performance rather then winning the event of the day. Want to boost nationals participation? install a tournament participation system where a skier gets x amount of points for entering more tournaments during the preceding season and add it to the rankings score. gives bubble skiers the opportunity to qualify and maybe even drag a second or third event into the championship series.

 

Boats and speed control: Probably the highest reason for non participation and member drop out. Boats today can cost over $80,000 new. The emphasis within the sanctioning body is not on the skier but that of the boat end of the rope. Our system is set up from old ideology where the manufacturers provided many many dollars in financial support from testing, accreditation and licensing, Before there was many! Now there are Four participating. Any boat more then three years old has to get a regional approval to be utilized in a class C tournament let alone a E or above. Currently on my lot are two perfectly good E-controlled boats that are 08 and 09 that work every bit as good as most boats being utilized in the tournament world today yet are ineligible for tournament use.. What is wrong with this picture?

Speed control, the current version has a strangle hold on our sport yet the company that provides the control has very poor customer service and knowledge of it's application. Also this system is not available for non DBW boats, truly isolating potential members who if had the system available would be more inclined to participate in the organized tournament aspect of the sport.

 

Again there is not one but many issues that will need to be addressed to turn the sport around and increase membership and participation. I am sure there are more issues that need to be addressed then what is listed above and my take on it is very obscure and radical I am sure, however if membership truly wants to move the sport forward then changes must be made and those changes may need to be selfish on the sports behalf.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jody_Seal]

@OB ( Sister Gramataica )

I fixed some of it just for you!!

[scuppers]

Four pages of what's wrong with competitive skiing - Here it is in one sentence - IT'S WAY TOO HARD. More rules, less rules, -no rules! It wont matter. People in today's world just don't care enough about anything to work that hard to a point of failure ( as Schnitz once said) Write 4 pages on how to maximize the enjoyment of what we have left. a thousand water skiers aren't going change the direction of our society.

[thager]

@scuppers Sad but true!

 

[Kelvin]

@Jody_Seal I've been advocating some sort of points system for Nationals qualification for years. It just falls on deaf ears. I am passionate about the sport and participate and help with officiating/promoting in a large number of tournaments, but can't quite get the qualifying scores to ski nationals.

[ALPJr]

I think moving to ability based divisions rather than age group would be a good place to start. In my opinion this would have the quickest and biggest impact. I'm guessing that the rest of things are politically charged and may take decades to work out. A change to ability based could happen next year.

[ToddL]

So, would one ability-based method be to make the divisions like our current Levels?

Men's Level 9 Division Champ

Women's Level 9 Division Champ

Boy's Level 9 Division Champ

Girl's Level 9 Division Champ

etc. similar for Level 8, then Level 7, down to Level 3

[GK]

In Ohio, we've been doing exactly what Todd Leach described with Class C tournaments for about 6 or 7 years now. Fun format events, running orders are seeded, skiing against ranking list average, any ability level can win on any given day, and all scores go towards ranking lists. We call it the Buckeye Buoy Tour, it's 5 or 6 Tour Stops each year and your Top 3 event scores are added to determine who wins the overall season. Our tour champions have ranged from a guy in his 40's running into 38 off to a 7 year old girl running into 21 mph. It's sponsored by D3 and the Tour Champion has won a brand new D3 slalom ski the past 4 years, not to mention other prizes such as "gold" Fin Firkins to each tour stop winner, beach towels, ski togs, gloves, and an array of other prizes. It works great, our tournament numbers have been up, collegiate participation is up, and over all good times had by all are up. I've posted the details on this forum multiple times and it typically gets very little comments because most people want to talk but they don't want to step up and make the change.

[ALPJr]

@GK that's really good stuff! Keep up the good work making the locals happy. I think the change needs to be on a national, organizational level so that everyone knows what's happening.

[ALPJr]

@ToddL yes something like that. Your ability is your average tourney score in the prior few tourneys, or where you say it is in your first tourney.

[ToddL]

With 7 levels (Level 3 through Level 9) times 4 (M/W/B/G), that is 28 divisions. Probably too many...

 

So, currently we have 6 youth divisions (3 boys, 3 girl), and 22 adult divisions (11 men, 11 women). That's 28 divisions, too! Then, there is Open Men, Open Women, and MM.

 

Here is another ability-based grouping idea, using only 17 total divisions:

41 and shorter Men's Division

38 off and 39.5 off Men's Division

32 off and 35 off Men's Division

max speed through 28 off Men's Division

below max speed Men's Division

 

38 off shorter Women's Division

32 off and 35 off Women's Division

max speed through 28 off Women's Division

below max speed Women's Division

 

38 off shorter Boy's Division

32 off and 35 off Boys's Division

max speed through 28 off Boy's Division

below max speed Boy's Division

 

38 off shorter Girl's Division

32 off and 35 off Girl's Division

max speed through 28 off Girl's Division

below max speed Girl's Division

 

There would need to be some sort of rule that if you ski out of your division, you are bumped up for future competitions. Divisions are established based upon last year's average scores. New skiers without an average are asked to declare their practice average and can be bumped up if significantly out-skiing their declared division.

 

 

[skihard]

@scuppers I'm sorry but I disagree that our sport suffers only because "IT'S TOO HARD"

What's too hard is to change the mind set of the governing bodies! Without that change the sport will never see growth. @Jody_Seal hit the nail hard on the head with a lot of his points and so does @Kelvin.

How pathetic is a system and it's organizers or controllers that stop growth.

Wake boarding is hard to get good at yet look at the growth in that sport last 10 years! Hell they don't even need boats anymore to play.

And golf is harder yet to become good without practice and being able to get involved.

I'm new to the USA and really new to the sport of skiing when it comes to chasing buoys vs skiing in open water. But I'm getting involved and I'm learning.

One thing I've learned is it is difficult when ideas and thoughts can't change or if minds that run the sport can't adapt and change to allow growth and participation.

People talk about the amount of money it costs? My family spent less on our first ski boat than people today pay for small fishing boats with 9.9 horse power motors on them at Bass Pro Shop, and yet we went out and ski'd. As we grew with the sport we upgraded when & where we could afford too.

It can change and get better if the minds at the top listen to the ones who really love the game!

 

[MISkier]

@ToddL, this is what we use in the Michigan Water Ski Association Ability Series. The groupings are purely ability-based. Men, Women, kids, adults all ski against each other according to where they fall in these rankings. And, when you exceed the range of your current ranking, you are moved up to compete in the next ranking. There are points for each place and, I believe, 1 point just for skiing in the tournament.

 

Maximum Speed Group:

A1 Entry Level - 4 passes total buoy count at any speed


A2 .25 @ 26 MPH (43 kph) to 6 @ 28 MPH (46 kph)


A3 .25 @ 30 MPH (49 kph) to 6 @ 30 MPH


A4 .25 @ 32 MPH (52 kph) to 6 @ 32 MPH


A5 .25 @ 34 MPH (55 kph) to 1 @ -22 34 MPH


A6 .25 @ 36 MPH (55 kph) to 1 @ -22 36 MPH (B3, M1, M2 skiers)

 

Shortline Group

B1 1.25 @ -22 max speed t0 6 @ -22


B2 .25 @ -28 max speed to 3 @ -28


B3 3.25 @ -28 max speed to 6 @ -28


B4 .25 @ -32 max speed to 3 @ -32


B5 3.25 @ -32 max speed to 6 @ -32


B6 .25 @ -35 max speed to 3 @ -35

 

Super Shortline Group

C1 3.25 @ -35 max speed to 5 @ -35


C2 5.25 @ -35 max speed to 2 @ -38


C3 2.25 @ -38 max speed to 5 @ -38


C4 5.25 @ -38 max speed to shorter

[ALPJr]

@ToddL yes something like that.

[scuppers]

@skihard - Love your enthusiasm! If you can fix things and prove me wrong it's a win for both of us.

 

[ALPJr]

@MISkier good stuff!

[boarditup]

The Michigan Ability Series is outstanding. If this were coupled with "F" scores being accepted for qualifications for Regionals, you would have enough incentive for more LOC to get going - the staffing of the tournaments would be much easier. It would allow for older boats - even PP boats - to be used again. It would also allow beginners to compete against other beginners and progress rapidly. That is something the INT always did well. @Jody_Seal is dead on right, as is the others who have commented on how the casual skier, the recreational skier, and the politically incorrect (sport internal politics) gets marginalized. In any sport or activity - grow or die. You cannot successfully "manage" a decline.

[GK]

@OB, why shouldn't every skier, regardless of age or ability, have a shot at winning on any given day or year if they ski well enough to do so? Our format is setup to reward consistency and improvement. The skier running 2 @ 39 off would never meet that 21 mph skier until the finals on any given day and skiers averages are increased to their highest score of the day to push EVERY skier to the top of their game by the final round. In other words, if that novice started with an average of 2@19 mph and ran 6@21mph in round 2, then her average for round 3 would be 6@21mph. So by the 3rd or 4th round (finals), it may be just as difficult for them to match that score of 6@21mph as it would be for the advanced skier to match his average of 2@39off.

 

P.S. Met a buddy of yours at Lake Cumberland last weekend.

[aupatking]

Lately I've been struggling to see how the sport shrinking is hurting me. It's not. I have a $1,500 ski, $700 boots, $125 vest, $65 gloves, don't remember what my top-of-the-line rope, or handle cost last time. I've got a nice pretty boat, and a private lake and a public river course. I could care less if the sport is shrinking.

 

Well, except I cannot buy a $1,500 ski within a 5 hour drive from me. I had to get my boots in Orlando, a 9 hour drive. And actually, none of my equipment came from anywhere near me. No one sells ski boats near me, not expensive ones, or even "cheap" ones. I go to big cities for work and I find ski shops to get my stuff. Most of these shops can only afford to stock stuff because they are piggy backing off a more profitable sport. The last shop I was in had a 2010 Radar Strada, new on the shelf, and a bunch of other 2 year old top gear. That's bad business. I'm glad they try, but I'm surprised they even bother. Hell, I ordered a ski sock I don't need, just to give them some water ski specific business.

If we don't get on it, we're gonna be left with Chinese HO and O'Brien in every Walmart, and nothing else. Yeah the boutique ski companies will always exist, but they'll fail like they currently do, but at a higher rate, matching ours.

I'm gonna be honest, that itself might be crap. Is it a pull-market or a push-market. Do we get the top skiers noticed, creating demand (push), or do we create demand by making the SPORT (not the recreational activity) available to everyone, and create a pull for better equipment? The top level, governing body needs to get that decision made, make it clear to those of us left, and we need to go out and promote, in whatever ways we can. Both can be focused on, but not with a lot of success. Let's do one, if it doesn't work, I'm good with trying the others. I'm betting on the latter.

[GK]

@OB, those are all good points. Our scoring is based on a percentage of your average, so yes, someone running 3 buoys beyond their average at 28 off would beat someone at 2 buoys over their average at 39 off, however those 2 skiers probably wouldn't compete against each other until the finals and you would probably be looking at a top 3 finish for both of those skiers. On top of that, do you think that the skier who ran 2 beyond his average at 39 off is going to be disappointed? Hell no, he is going to be elated with his skiing for the day so he is not going to be upset with whether he won or not. Also, had both skiers been 1/2 buoy under their average, the 39 off skier would have won because his percentage would be higher, so it goes both ways. There is no great way to account for the "difficulty level" as you get to shorter lines, however it's not really as much about the shortline skier. If you're running into 39 off then everyone at the tournament already knows you're a badass and you probably walk away as top dog at a number of events. It's the other skier who may be in the same division that runs into 28 off that can feel good about the one tournament in his life when he skied his ass off well enough to be crowned "winner" for the day. That kind of opportunity gets people excited and keeps them coming back!

[ntx]

And......everyone gets a prize!!!!

[Chef23]

@ntx I don't think everyone needs to get a prize but in a competition it is nice to actually be competitive against someone besides yourself. I love to ski tournaments but in general as a mid 35 off skier in Men's 4 (not a hack but not great) I never have a chance to win. The beauty of a golf handicap is a scratch golfer can have a match against a 15 handicap and it is a fair competition.

 

I think there is a place for both scratch and handicapped or ability grouped competitions. Right now in water skiing it is mostly scratch type of events. I think you might get more participation in tournaments if people felt they could be competitive. Not everyone feels like I do that trying to beat your best score in a competition environment is reward enough.

[GregDavis]

Hat off to Greg K, ( Ohio ) He has done an outstanding job, with the Buckeye Buoy tour. Lots of fun, gives beginners, regular skiers, and kids, a reason to participate, Actually, my wife and I , had a great time at the last Buckeye Buoy tour, more fun than we have had at many regular tournaments. Easy to talk, Not that many people actually step up to the plate and make a difference, and make things happen. THANKS GREG k, FOR MAKINMG A DIFFERENCE.

[gt2003]

I think handicapping isn't a bad idea. As a skier, you know it's a handicapped event going in. So, if you get "beat" by someone in a lower class than you, you knew it could happen to begin with. If you are too emotional to deal with it (aka EGO) then don't enter the dang tournament. And be ready to deal with the smack talk from whoever spanked you :). I'm seeing these more as "fun" tournaments to grow the sport versus the more serious events that happen now. Heck, I'd enter one just to see what happens. Great idea.

[ALPJr]

How about straight up divisions based on ability like cycling? Something like this maybe...

 

Novice Mini Course-max speed 28mph

1. Never made a pass

2. Made full pass

3. Made a full pass at 28mph (then moves up to full course)

 

Novice Full Course-max speed 28

1. 2. & 3. Same as above

4. Never made -22

5. Never made -35

6. Never made -39

 

Shredder Full Coarse max speed 30

2. Never made 32mph

3. Never made -22

4. Never made -35

5. Never made -39

 

Shredder Full Coarse max speed 32

3. Never made 32mph

4. Never made -22

5. Never made -35

6. Never made - 39

 

Baller Never Made 34mph

2. Never made 34

3. Never made -22

4. Never made - 35

5. Never made - 39

 

Baller Never Made 36mph

1. Never made 36

2. Never made -22

3. Never made - 35

4. Never made - 39