New technology for tow boats.

[Jody_Seal]

2015/2016 will be a new era in our sport. New direct inject power-plants now will be the norm in the boats that we will be seeing for three event skiing. Attached is from a flyer produced by Rinda Technology's. Rinda is the company that many marine tech's utilize for their diagnostic tool's. The explanation of the new products are in layman's terms.

[Nick Sullivan]

Good stuff Jodi, I am excited to have these newer engines. Will there be an OBDII port so we can scan for codes like we can with a car? I'm also hoping there will be a weight savings on these new engines. Hopefully we see an increase in our fuel consumption too.

[Jody_Seal]

@Nick Sullivan ,

No sorry no OBDII. these Engines are for the most part E-controlled, MEFI-6(?) and proprietary electronic's .

I think you want to say a decrease in fuel consumption, hopefully these new products utilize less fuel then their predecessor's.

 

 

The downside to this new tech is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[east tx skier]

@Jody_Seal Will they be putting a superfluous injector in the intake manifold to help keep the intake valves clean. Or will owners have to pull everything apart every few years to clean the carbon deposits off the intake valves or shell out (no pun intended) big bucks to have them walnut blasted or have a tech go after them with a dental pick)?

 

/vw owner. :worried:

[DW]

It is certainly nice to see technology transfer over to the marine industry. As noted it will be costly and unfortunately the typical, and particularly a slalom tug, ski boat operating use takes advantage of only a small percentage of what the technology provides since it really helps the transients but the efficiency gain will be noticed. The DI technology it pretty damn cool for the motorsports application, particularly at the endurance races where efficiency is so important.

[6balls]

Doesn't seem worth the dough. Our engines are very powerful and when well maintained seem to be quite reliable for a very long service life.

[The_MS]

If they come up with a new speed control to only match the new tech, waterskiing is toast.

[fox197]

$$ will be a huge factor. Considering most slalom/wake boats use either Chev or ford derived engines. I have a project car in the process of being built. DI crate motor is 4x the price of a gen 3 or 4 ls motor.

[Alberto Soares]

Mechanical high pressure fuel pump, hum, I don´t like that...

[oldjeep]

Funny that gdi would be much of a price jump since some bargain car brands have been using the technology for years. My wife's 2011 Kia optima has a gdi engine in it. 200hp 2.4l

 

Be interesting to see if they ever try to reduce the size of the engine to an i4 or v6 while taking advantage of newer technologies rather than just jamming more and more stuff on a v8 that already has enough power.

[east tx skier]

I'll ask again, is the likelihood of carbon buildup on the intake valves in DI engines a concern? Or are boats subject to a little less restriction on rerouting of exhaust gases to burn unburned fuel and crankcase ventilation through the intake manifold, thereby making carbon cleaning a less frequent task?

[Jody_Seal]

Doug, I guess it will come down to quality of fuel that is burned. historically skiers use the cheapest junk they can pump into the boat. these new engines will operate in a much cooler service cycles then their automotive counter part so time will be the deciding factor.

[giantjoe]

The thing I don't like about DI engines is that they're loud. My MINI sounded like a diesel...

[east tx skier]

@Jody_Seal My experience with this is limited to my VW, but what causes the problem is the rerouting of exhaust gases into the intake to burn of any previously unburned fuel as well as crankcase ventilation to the intake manifold. Unlike a MPI engine, there is no fuel injection in the intake ahead of the intake valves. So there is no fuel at all (cheap or otherwise) to act as a solvent to clean the tops of the intake valves. Toyota and now, VW, have started adding a superfluous injector in the intake manifold that squirts fuel into the mix every so often to keep the intake valves clean. So what I think it boils down to is what the requirements are in the marine industry for rerouting exhaust gases and crankcase ventilation to the intake. If it is the same as automotive, save for an injector in the intake manifold, there will be issues.

 

On VWs, this can get bad by 50K miles. And the proverbial "Italian Tune Up" doesn't seem to bring enough heat into the equation to do much about it. The fix is removing the intake manifold and going after the carbon deposits with a pick and some solvent or, alternatively, walnut blasting. Both run about $700--$800. I have a solvent I spray through my intake (carefully avoiding the MAF) about once per year. My head group was replaced under warranty for unrelated reasons and along with it, I got new intake valves. So I won't know if my spray solution had any effect for another 10K miles or so.

[jackski]

@ east tx skier. Same goes for my Mini Cooper S. At 14,000 mi I could already feel a performance drop due to carbon buildup, along with decreased fuel economy. After a cleaning I was back to new. I now installed an additional catch can in the recirculated gasses track. Now with an additional 16,000 mi it still feels normal. Have to remember to clean out the catch can every few weeks though as there's a lot of stuff there.

I'd hate to see this in our boats, it's enough work now.

[DW]

A bit off topic, but it was pretty interesting to watch the Audi LMP's the first time they came to LeMans with TDI and simply pull out of the pits instantly w/o any spinning over of the starter (they have to shut off the engines when they pit), it was quite a time savings for them. Same crew managed an engine/trans/rear suspension swap in less than 4 minutes one year.

[east tx skier]

@jackski Is the catch can only doing oil vapor cleanup or is it in the rerouted exhaust loop as well? The VW guys with the catch cans aren't seeing much improvement.

[Jody_Seal]

I had one of the Masters boats (turned out to be the slalom boat) with the 6.2 Direct inject engine. Engineering #13 was the serial number, sound emanating from either the exhaust or the engine box was no different then my current 6.0 200. Power was very adequate for the function the boat was designed for. I took the boat too two different ski lakes before the masters and only pulled slalom and tricks with it. Aside from some early propeller shenanigans on my part the boat impressed just about everyone it pulled, we even did a little ZO testing with the new receiver that only made the boat better then it already was

The powerplant pulled two Callaway course records in jump and many personal bests with great scores in slalom and a pending world record at the LCQ at Jack's.

 

I think trying to compare the marine / industrial GM direct inject engines with the foreign built Automotive stuff is akin to comparing watermelons with footballs they are both kinda round. but again time will be the determining factor with these new engines, it still stands they will be part of our environment that we play in!

 

[east tx skier]

I'm sure performance will be great. I love my little VW 2.0T. As far as the comparison I made how accurate it is will likely depend what the environmental requirements are/will be of marine industry as far as burning off initially uncombusted fuel by rerouting exhaust gases through the intake manifold. Without some sort of fuel squirt north of the intake valves, buildup can get nasty in a relatively short period of time.

[MopedMedicks]

@Jody_Seal - You stated that the power is "very adequate" - is this torque curve notably better/worse than the outbound 6.0 409hp?

 

Also, what top speed & RPM did you achieve with your prop of choice?

[Kelvin]

The Masters jump boat made it up to 52mph with the Acme 668 prop with a sizable crew pulling a jumper.

[Jody_Seal]

@Kelvin, hopefully you had a remote hand held GPS as there is a current glitch in the ZO / link speed display that stops at 50 mph.

 

Keep in mind I was around in the day's when we were installing a few supercharged powerplants into ski boats. the DI 6.2 engines Adequate yes, probably more than adequate as the jumpers seem to like it. I would say the torque curve is somewhere in-between a current 409 and a 450 PCM engine, probably closer to the 450. As far as the 5.3 I have no seat time or experience with that package but have been told it is a far cry stouter then a 5.7.

 

The ACME 668 seems to work fine, I did try two different 668's as the first one ran a little high rpm then I preferred at slalom speeds. The boat I had reminded me of the 450 package I had two years ago. Also after the ECI ZO system was installed with the latest software it was a phenomenal overall ski boat. cant wait to order my own for 2016!

[RAWSki]

That is very impressive, I would be surprised to see anything today reach 52mph even without crew or skier.

" Masters jump boat made it up to 52mph with the Acme 668 prop with a sizable crew pulling a jumper."

[swc5150]

I wonder if the 5.3 will make a happy medium between the current 5.7 and 6.0? Just thinking out loud that the 6.2 is probably big money compared to the 5.3, but the latter may now be plenty sufficient in a 200? Maybe pushing WOT to the mid to upper 40's, and not breathing as heavy at 34 & 36?

[oldjeep]

Seems like they figured out how to de-turd the 5.3 in the last couple years, at least in terms of peak hp/tq. Remains to be seen if it was at the expense of longevity.

[MopedMedicks]

This is exciting to hear. The de-turded 5.3 could be a real delighter for the footers upset with the outbound 5.7 in the current product SN200 (myself included).

[jackski]

@ East Tx skier In BMW's and Mini 's it's the oil vapor they clean up. They don't have exhaust rerouting on the turbos.

cheers

[east tx skier]

@jackski Good to know. Apparently it's a host of things that create some deposits (exposure of the valve to the combustion is among them. But it's the rerouting of carbon based stuff (oil in the case of BMWs and Minis and Oil and exhaust in the case of VW) that makes it worse at greater intervals. I was under the impression that the recirculation of exhaust gases was some sort of EPA requirement, turbo or not.

 

Edit: I have misspoken (with regard to my engine). On the VW TSi, there is no EGR valve or passage. EGR is accomplished with valve overlap Unfortunately, this has resulted in a more prolonged exposure of the intake valve to combustion. So if there is inefficient combustion in that instance, you still have the carbon byproduct ending up on the intake valves. Altering ECU valve timing tables would be the only way to alter amount of EGR on my engine. VW has added the superfluous injector as of this year. Hope it works as well as it has for Toyota on their DI engines.

 

http://autoguide.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Carbon-Buildup.jpg

 

[Kelvin]

@Jody_Seal, I spent the weekend at Mapple's place 2 weeks before Masters. We were skiing behind the 6.2L Jump boat. The WOT speed was reported to me on the dock. I wasn't in the boat at the time. The 52mph speed made sense to me since my 2011 6.0L with 1300 hours will do over 49mph in jump mode. I didn't think it was that big a stretch for the 6.2 to hit 52.