Is anyone going to nationals?

[Chef23]

@lpskier given what you have been through in the past year you deserve to be there. Have fun.

[rawly]

How are the conditions ?

 

[rawly]

Just sayin

[texas_slalom_trick]

Try skiing in b2 when there's 40 plus skiers, and your seeded 10th, and you wait for 5&a half hours.

[Than_Bogan]

@texas_slalom_trick If you are the B2 skier, then a hearty welcome to one of the younger contributors!! Hope you enjoy the site.

 

I would say that 6 skiers per hour is actually pretty typical for a long site at an R tournament (where they tend to use the entire "regulation" drop time). Some of the faster class C's can get up to 10 skiers per hour, but that's about it.

 

Skiing a 1-round tournament takes a little planning (to estimate when you might ski) and a lot of patience.

 

Hope you had fun!

[Roger]

@Than_Bogan - I'm not familiar with a "Regulation Drop Time" anywhere in the rules, can you elaborate? We usually average about 10 skiers/hour at Okeeheelee and typically use a 45 second wait time on Zero-Off (first beeps at 45, last beeps at 55). The wait time is adjusted based on how quick the lake settles after a pass, no regulation is applied that I'm aware of. Our lakes settle pretty quickly unless we have an unusual water level. I've skied in Miami when they were forced to use 120 seconds...

[Than_Bogan]

Oh I just assumed that must be a rule because I always get dropped way longer at Regionals and Nationals than local tournaments.

[MattP]

@Than_Bogan my drops at Nats were super short... The M1 lake was ave 5 min a skier.

[Horton]

I heard stories from M1 about the drivers pretty much going without even looking at the skier. @Mattp is that what happened to you?

[klindy]

The average this year was approximately 6 minutes a skier. As @Roger said, the wait time was 45 seconds and there are no regulations or rules. It varies based on the conditions, lake, number of skiers and probably other factors. Typically the chief driver and chief judge agree on a wait time based on recommendations from the lake owners. The wait time can be different on each end.

 

One other facter at Okeeheelee are the postions of the starting docks and the rope management (boom) they use. Switching between skiers is pretty efficient!

 

@MattP it's possible they ran 5 min a skier but that usually means the skiers are not getting 4 passes plus. "Down and back" slalom is (unfortunately!) pretty fast. Not saying that's what happended but I never heard of any different wait times for any divisions.

[Than_Bogan]

Huh, maybe us New Englanders (via New Jersey in my case) are just chronically in a hurry. Sometimes at Regionals or Nationals I feel like I'm sitting so long that I need to go back to an earlier pass to warm up again!

 

Then again, John's Pond drops pretty long because of the time it takes to settle, and that is still home to my tournament best.

[MattP]

@Horton I felt the strongest mentally that I have ever felt on the dock going into the event. I had some good practice sets at Nationals the few days before I skied.

 

My First Nationals Experience

I get in the water and with my handle in hand I go under the water as I jumped in. The second my head comes of the water the line comes tight and my ski tip (which is not above the water at this time because I am kicking into my RTP) gets sucked under me and pulls me around so my back is to the boat and with one hand on the handle behind my head I am getting dragged down the lake. I finally get my head above the water to try and yell to get the driver to stop. I believe there were others on the dock who were yelling as well. I finally get my ski back under me and get 1 breath while kicking into my RTP and the boat crew tells me "here we go" while I am trying to get my glove back on. I pull out for my gates with one glove half way down my hand and manage to run a terribly sloppy opener while trying to clear the water from my lungs. We sit down at the other end and as soon as the first of the second set of beeps hits on the timer the rope was already tight and with a full hammer down throttle up we are off down the lake. I weight 150lbs there is no reason to dump a full throttle on a 6L to get me up to speed. I get my arms back in their sockets and manage to get an awesome start at 28off. I come into 4 ball so early that I backside the buoy and I tapped the buoy with my ski or binding and it throws my tip into the air and I go to a dead stop. The bubble buoy felt like concrete.

 

I felt super rushed and I felt that I was not given the proper respect to be able to perform to my highest at the National Championships. I can say I am disappointed in the way the boat crew handled the event. I’m sure it was great for everyone else but for me it was not up to par in the least… It felt like they were trying to mow us down so they could finish up and move on with their day. As @Horton said It did not feel as though the SR.DRIVER was paying any attention to the skier or utilizing his mirror at all from my end of the rope.

 

Across the board I heard the driving was a little sub par for a Nationals. I was discussing drivers with the open rated slalom guys and I asked why a list of drivers were not there to pull their event. They told me that because they are not 3 Event Sr. Divers that they can not pull at a Nationals. I think this is absurd. Chad Scott, Chris Eller, Becky L. among others were on shore and could have been asked to pull their event. I am sure that they would have jumped at the chance to get the open skiers the scores they are capable of.

[Than_Bogan]

@MattP That's sad but unfortunately I heard some of the same story.

 

I have also had the experience of Bubble Buoys feeling very hard. I believe it's because I hit it from the side and so the substantial mass of it is the effect I feel rather than the top part collapsing. I personally prefer the Wally style.

[ntx]

@mattP The first thing I learned when I skied tournaments, was to be ready, IN THE WATER when the boat gets to you. That concept has gotten lost to some degree at some class C, but it is still in use at regionals and Nationals. They are not going to wait for you to get ready. It is on the skier to be ready. As a driver, I hate for the skier to be talking BS on the dock while he is putting his binding on and the boat is ready to go. In my mind it is disrespectfull to the host of the tournament. Maybe the M1 skiers have not learned that yet. Something to think about and learn the next time you ski nationals.

 

Again, at class C it is a little more relaxed but you wont see that at higher end events.

[Than_Bogan]

@ntx I have never heard of that. The only time I see people wait in the water is if it's so oppressively hot that they are trying to cool down a little. I'm only an assistant driver, but I wouldn't be happy with skiers waiting in the water because I sure as heck don't want to hit anybody while changing up ropes and ZO settings and all that.

[MattP]

@ntx the way the boat was swinging in to get the ropes I was not about to sit there and wait. I'm with @Than_Bogan as a safety official I would not want skiers doing that.

[The_MS]

As a driver, no matter what, you must make sure the skier is ready. Nationals is all about the skier, not the event. The dock starter should be making sure the skiers are ready and in the water in a timely manner.

[jdarwin]

@MattP - unfortunately, that has been the experience of too many. We pay an enormous entry fee and treated like 2nd class citizens ( unless you are one of the top seeds who are given special consideration). And, they wonder why the numbers are down. I'm not surprised at all.

[santangelo]

Sorry @mattP. That really sux as a first experience. There have been many similar stories we've heard over the years and are much worse. I'm glad their impatience didn't cause you to miss your opener.

 

As you mentioned, they are likely all 3 event drivers (2 event drivers are also allowed) and possibly very good at driving at least 1 of those events, but they tend to drive all they can get assigned by the CD.

 

Regarding Eller, Lathrop, and Scott... they could drive Nat's if the assigned Driver and CD agreed to do so, but I have yet to see it happen. Unfortunately we have a lot of ego's in the sport and they don't always think about what's best for the skier.

[wtrskior]

its not just skiers experience, but based on @MattP story, also their health and safety. I have had shoulder injuries so I literally feel your pain, its unbecoming of a boat driver to jerk a skier around like that. Completely unacceptable and the most basic of tow boat driving etiquette. I'd like to know who it was so I never get in the water with them. My shoulders cant handle pulls like that.

[texas_slalom_trick]

@Than_Bogan l did thanks so much. It was my 4th nationals, and for the past three years my mom and I have left my dad and older brother at home because he has two adays starting the same day a nationals. I ended up eight! So happy, because I was seeded tenth. I am starting my last year in south central region b2. So sad.

Thanks for the encouragement. I've always loved the turnpike lake because it runs so much slower than what I have in Texas.

[ntx]

@mattP There was no safe place to swim out away from the dock to allow the boat to go behind you? That's usually how it is done. If the skier ahead of you falls late in his pass back toward the dock, I understand not being ready. Otherwise, get in the water and swim out to the drop zone. Pretty simple really and a technique that has been in use for many, many years. I guess the dock starter was not doing a good job. Shame on them.

[unksskis]

I had great driving, and great interaction with all of my drivers. It was a fantastic Nationals, and I appreciate everyone who helped put it on. Maybe they can send out a survey to rate the driving.

[elr]

How about No Earlier Than [NET] times for skier groupings - all events. The NET times would likely slow the rush that @MattP experienced as there would be less of an incentive for getting through skiers quickly. They would also help the wait time that @texas_slalom_trick experienced as there would be an official "safe arrival time." With entry fees and travel costs as high as they are we need to try to be skier friendly.

[MattP]

@ntx I have never seen that done. I would not feel safe doing that. The safety in my says that is an accident waiting to happen.

 

@jdarwin Sounds like there needs to be a change from the top down. In the way the event is run and officials are assigned/ appointed. Allowing 1 event drivers to participate.

@santangelo thats interesting. Would people get better pulls from fresher drivers who have not been at nationals all week in a hot boat? Rotating drivers each day of the week as they come in and work their assigned day before or after they compete.

@elr thats a different way to think about it. Keep the ideas coming.

 

Side note my trick driver was awesome!

[Horton]

If a Nationals experience sucks more and more will stop going....

[ntx]

@mattp keep doing what you are doing then. Hopefully you have better results next year.

[klindy]

@MattP Sorry you had a bad experience your first time out. I wasn't part of this years Nationals in any way but I did attend the officals meeting and did help judge a few events. All officials (drivers, judges, scorers, etc.) were reminded that they were there for the skiers and that, at the end of the day, if they were 'invisible' then they accomplished their jobs well. Clearly that appears that it didn't happen to you.

 

In terms of being ready, @ntx is pretty much on target. As I mentioned earlier or in another post, Okee has a pretty efficient method of swapping ropes which really cuts down on the 'dock time' and makes it even more important to be as prepared as possible. For me I sat on the corner of the starting dock and after the ropes were swapped and the boat cleared I lowered myself in the water. I had plenty of time to ask Lyman for "33.6, letter B, slow second segment and a narrow split" (yes, for slalom). We all got a chuckle and off we went. Perhaps knowing that the change over was going to be pretty efficient helped me prepare for it.

 

As far as driver selection there are appointed drivers from each region elected (selected) by the region. Becky was an appointed driver this year (as a sub) and pulled M2 slalom.

[Than_Bogan]

@elr I think that would be a total win. Even as a spectator (like I was this year), I'd greatly appreciate that. It almost could make it possible for "ordinary" spectators to attend and see something interesting, as opposed to just other skiers watching.

 

Also, it would make it so that you could see in advance problematic scheduling like having the best OM trickers in the world skiing at the same time as the best OM slalomers in the world. Talk about spectator-unfriendly!

 

As a skier, knowing a "safe arrival" time would be huge.

 

Of course, it makes it run longer in total, with some occasional dead time. But if we used to be able to handle 900 skiers and now only have 600, "surely" a little dead time will be fine.

[webbdawg99]

I was quite happy to see Becky L behind the wheel for M2. The wait times at the end were certainly shorter than I'm used to, but the boat crew was excellent.

[klindy]

Part of the trouble with 1 event drivers (same for judges, etc.) are how to administer the hotel rooms, scheduling and other officials items. Perhaps it would be easier for drivers than judges, I'm not sure. The same sort of issue comes up for those who want to be there for 2-3 days only and not the whole event.

 

Appointed judges not only are assigned to various positions as event judges but they are also responsible for voting on protests and other official related items like scheduling changes, rules issues, etc. With 10 appointed judges (2 from each region) it's already hard to keep track of everyone and with them spread out over 4 lakes even more difficult to get a timely decision. Ironically, likely because of the greater number of judges needed, it's more likely to see an "onsite" judge used in addition to those appointed or assigned. With only one driver needed in any one time per lake, it's more likely they will just slot in whomever is appointed. In all cases conflicts of interest makes the possible options shrink a bit.

 

Currently each region can select 2 or 3 event drivers to represent the region as Appointed Drivers at the Nationals. At least one driver selected from each region needs to be a three event driver.

 

I will suggest that simply finding someone on the shore who's available (and qualified) would likely lead to "using who you know" which can be equally undesirable. Personally I've been around a long time and have lived in 3 different regions but there are officials I meet all the time with whom I have zero experience.

 

One way to improve things is to encourage more 3 event skiing! It'll take a while....

[lottawatta]

There aren't many sites wanting to host nationals now. If we go adding burdens on the host like guaranteed ski times, even fewer sites would be interested.

[ntx]

@Than_Bogan Yes, the open men trick and slalom event at the same time was a problem. Sad that it worked out that they had two events to ski within a short time frame.

[Onside135]

Unfortunately, @MattP highlights what would be my biggest fear…spending a bunch of money/time to prepare, travel and compete a significant distance from home for one opportunity to shine. To then get there and have the experience ruined would be horrible. @WebbDawg99 told a similarly disappointing tale last year about the breakage of his ski during his opener. What a bummer. To me personally it just isn't worth it. Maybe one day I'll prioritize differently, but for now I'm not interested.

 

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

In defense of @ntx I think the message is to be ready before the boat is. I always have my ski on and sitting on the dock waiting on the rope or handle change, but get in as soon as the boat is clear and well before the rope gets tight. Sounds like mattp may have been a little slow???? At any rate there is no excuse for dragging the skier or the driver not paying attention.

[texas_slalom_trick]

@elr I always arrive at any tournaments, because you never know what could happen. For example,every one before you could go out the font on there gates,or they could miss their gates,or they could fall or something could happen. Especially in an e&l class tourneys, because you pay much money,and if you got scratched,you'd be kicking your butt for the next year.

[jimbrake]

@Bruce_Butterfield - exactly. I've never been to a tournament anywhere where you were supposed to be in the water as the boat is approaching to come get you for your ride. Sitting on the dock, with ski on, handle in hand, waiting to tell the driver and judge your speed, ZO setting, and line length - yes. I always watch the skier before me to see how they're doing so I get my ski on in time. I hate having to rush to put my ski on as the boat is coming back to the dock. I suppose if "the way" at a particular site was to be in a certain spot in the water ready to go when the boat comes back, I'd certainly do it, but only if that was communicated and obvious that that was what everyone was doing.

[The_MS]

It would be nice to hear how the top seeds like Cole Giacopuzzi, Sam Jackson or Wyatt Haines felt when they were ready to go. Were they rushed or were the wait times a bit longer as they usually are for the top seeds?

[MattP]

@Colebrah ^?

 

I do know there was about a 5min stoppage before the top seed skied. I assume for gas? I was halfway down the lake watching the event with a bunch of people and could not tell for sure.

[Ilivetoski]

If Nate skies M1 I bet he would not be dragged, given all the time he wanted at each end, and the driver would not be ignoring him...

[eleeski]

Becky pulled me for a great trick ride. No complaints and I got a reasonable set down time.

 

At Senior Worlds last year the trick driver was horrible. He felt compelled to go at his specified time with no regard to safety or the skier. Releases weren't properly installed, ropes not untangled, boots not clipped and skiers not ready. I don't know if the tournament directors ordered this or he was just evil but no matter what, that was wrong and unfair to the skiers.

 

Since I got a good ride at Nationals, I would blame the individual. Bummer for those who drew him.

 

Officials selection at Nationals is completely flawed. The trick judging was unusually strict. Everyone complained. As with unfriendly driving, unfriendly judging discourages participation at Nationals. I thought we were trying to encourage people to go to Nationals. Perhaps some changes in officials assignments would help AWSA achieve that.

 

Eric

[rawly]

Sounds like the driver may have stayed at Howard Johnson's ? ( Bakersfield nationals fiasco )

[The_MS]

I need 30 seconds to unwind the rope that is always twisted up.

[waterskigirl]

Did anyone ever find the stats on what year the largest Nats was and where???

Someone out there keeps this information, where are you? :smile:

 

[klindy]

Well that didnt work....I'll try again.

[klindy]

Apologies for formating difficulties. Tried to post it as a picture but that didnt work either. First number is total rides (all three events). Second is total skiers (all divisions, all events). Third is the total rides per skier.

 

Year Location ST Rides Skiers Rd/Skr

1991 Sacramento CA 924 624 1.481

1992 Destin FL 1132 786 1.440

1993 Destin FL 1171 811 1.444

1994 W Plm Bch FL 1169 839 1.393

1995 W Plm Bch FL 1147 816 1.406

1996 Destin FL 1249 886 1.410

1997 W Plm Bch FL 1307 903 1.447

1998 W Plm Bch FL 1335 918 1.454

1999 Bakersfield CA 1244 866 1.436

2000 Bakersfield CA 1257 875 1.437

2001 Bakersfield CA 1257 852 1.475

2002 Houston TX 1400 932 1.502

2003 Houston TX 1119 733 1.527

2004 W Plm Bch FL 1414 959 1.474

2005 W Plm Bch FL 1245 845 1.473

2006 Bakersfield CA 1166 756 1.542

2007 Bakersfield CA 1053 668 1.576

2008 W Plm Bch FL 1279 793 1.613

2009 W Plm Bch FL 1229 729 1.686

2010 Wilmington IL 1295 740 1.750

2011 Wilmington IL 1167 655 1.782

2012 W Plm Bch FL 1128 654 1.725

2013 W Plm Bch FL 1119 661 1.693

2014 San Marcos TX 1120 621 1.804

 

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

Like @MattP said @MS , the time we spend in the water at the ends was very quick. I was 2nd seed, but the kid in front of me who knew the driver very well, definitely got more time; it seemed like forever when he sat at the ends. I did notice, the driver would just mumble something under his breath, and we would go. For the most part I looked at the boat judge who I knew, and he gave a nod so I was never caught off guard. I have learned over the years to be ready as soon as possible, the times they use on the timer vary so much now.

[ntx]

So based on numbers that @klindy posted, is it unrealistic for the sponsors and exhibitors to want 1000 skiers? In the past 25 years the most is only 960. Pretty interesting.

[MichaelGoodman]

@OB1 George come on back up to Plymouth after Oct 1st or

so and we will show you what its like to get iced.

[Than_Bogan]

Don't worry we'll let you ski ON the water.