V-typeR

[MAD11]

Slots for DFT only. Always tips for length. Have found too many skis will not work using the exact same jaw numbers, but then match the tips and they ski really close.

[SkiJay]

Thanks @MAD11

On the ski I have, the difference between measuring DFT with the head method and a V2 slot caliper is over .030"! This is food for thought for anyone who thinks there's an easy conversion between slot calipers and a standard head measurement. On my Nano One and XT, the slot caliper measured .011 longer. On this V-Type R, it's .031". This means your slot measurement is about the same as a .0740" standard caliper head measurement.

 

Your numbers are WAY better than the original recommended numbers! The original numbers made the tail so tight it wouldn't finish turns. I was pretty close to your settings for a set, but had to keep going to finish loosening the tail up enough. I ended up at:

 

6.940, 2.455, .785, 8°, 29.625 (the .785 DFT would be .815 with a slot caliper).

 

As different as this setup looks from the new factory recommended specs listed above, it's mostly about long/shallow vs. short deep. Without having tried the new factory specs yet, I'm pretty sure they'll ski quite similarly, just with less roll.

[SkiJay]

@scotchipman

The V-Type R is fabulous, and I'd like to try a 66". But the 67" is already a little more work than the 66" Vapor, and I'd expect the 66" VTR to be even more work. My next test with the 67" VTR will be using a set of HO's new plateless bindings. That should be interesting, and I would have already done this test if I wasn't enjoying being back on the Vapor so much.

[MAD11]

@skijay when I get home I will measure DFT with my calipers the standard way so we can get a comparison. There is usually a difference anywhere between .010 to .030 so yeah your in-line with what I have seen. It just depends on the shape of the tail and have found on about every ski model that delta is different. I think if you try the even longer fin (6.96) with it moved back to .770 (so with your caliper that would be .740 I think) you will like it even more. Those numbers seem to be working well for all sizes with only the DFT changing. For example @superchicken rides the 66" at that length and depth with the tail at .754 and the 65" with the DFT at .744. By the way, the 65" is crazy good. Lots of little guys and ladies will be crushing on it next year. You should test a 66" no matter what the chart says and think you would like it even more.

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv313/marcaustin11/220e669c-25eb-4107-b5b6-160453bec407.jpg

[SkiJay]

 

67”: 6.870(tips), 2.495, .780(head), 8°, 29.75”

 

I just tried HO's latest recommended factory setup (shown above) for the 67" V-Type R and can say it's a vast improvement over their original recommended short/deep setup. I skied like a doorknob today because I was also trying out the new HO VMax plateless binding on the VTR, and changing bindings always balls me up. But I still made a few good passes, and my pylon video revealed how nicely balanced the ski was despite my efforts to suck on it.

 

Having gone back and forth between the V-Type R and the Vapor a few times now, the biggest difference I've noticed is tip rocker and possibly tip stiffness. The VTR has visibly less tip rocker, but whether it's rocker, stiffness, or both, the VTR delivers less tip-pressure than the Vapor when lots of the ski's tip is pressed into service. This is neither good nor bad. It depends on your technique and preferences. The Vapor's higher level of maximum tip-pressure delivers more braking force and a tighter turn than the VTR (without being as extreme as previous Vapors). And while the VTR won't brake or turn quite as hard as the Vapor when the whole tip is pressed into service, the VTR is seemingly immune to tip-grab.

 

I've also meant to mention how much nicer the fit and finish is on the V-Type R than was the case with HO a few years back. The new VTR is a truly beautiful ski from any angle.

[Booze]

@SkiJay - Thanks for the reviews. I've been riding a 67 VTR since the BoS-Cash tourny, so it's nice to get some comparative objective info.

 

The VTR feels very different from the Goode's I've ridden the last 2 years. In fact, the first set (with Will at the Austin tourn) I missed 3 passes. (though I did go on to run a 35 last pass) I'm so used to turning a ski with the back half rather than the front half...which is a must with the VTR. But a nice result from that, is a conservation of speed I'm not used to, and a more forward CoM stack.

 

I ran mostly stock numbers on the Goodes (more short and deep), whereas the VTR has a more long/shallow fin. I don't remember the numbers, but Will set it up "for 35 and 38". Front Reflex is as far forward as it will go, ~29.75. Will suggested trying 30, which I suspect I'll like. But that will be a mill/drill/file project for the Winter.

 

For even Alabama, the season is drawing to a close. I'll look forward to experimenting with fins (and no doubt, skis) in the spring. Now, if I only had some good reading material on ski and fin setup to keep me busy...

 

 

 

 

 

[skiboyny]

How is the VTR different from last years VT? Can anyone compare?

[ForrestGump]

Will set up my ski at .770 with his slot caliper. With my regular caliper, I get .740. So .030 delta for this ski is right on.

 

Two weeks ago I put the plateless half boot on the rear in place of my Animal rear and kept the front Reflex. With the plateless the footbed is higher so I ended up having to move my bindings a bit to compensate for the changed weight distribution.

 

Will also told me to try 30" on the front binding, as that's what he runs. But that will require changing reflex plates. I slotted mine out as far as I can and can only get 29 7/8. They should really move the inserts 1/4 forward in the ski.

[MAD11]

@ShaneH Could possibly get to 30" with one of the older reflex plates that you could move everything forward. The new one only has one set of holes for the rear mounts. I may have one lying around you could try.

[gregy]

@Shaneh have you tried a R-Style reflex?I've got a couple of weeks on one and liking it. Do the HO Plate less release similar to the Radar boots.

[ALPJr]

Second ride on the me V Type R today. Water 41 Air 58 Wind light 3 to 5 mph. It feels very good everywhere. Easy pull out, gate turn, cuts and turns. Really looking forward to next season Love this ski. Great job HO!!!

[ForrestGump]

@MAD11 I found my old carbon plate I got from you a few years ago and switched back to it last night. Can now get to 30.

[ALPJr]

Sam's @savaiusini fin settings, front XMax at 29 3/4, and rear XMax as close as possible feels good. Hard to say though in 41 degree water with compression shirts and shirt, running tights, and a ls duo fold shirt under my drysuit. I'll wait for next season's warmth and make sure I'm doing things right before thinking about ski adjustments.

[ForrestGump]

Me thinking 30 inches should be reserved for RTP users. Even with the half boot, that was too much. I'll leave it since I'm going back to RTP this week, though.

[ALPJr]

All dried out and ready for winter. This ski really has me stoked for next year!

 

[Garn]

@SkiJay, what did you think of HO's new plateless bindings?

[SkiJay]

@Garn

See new thread: ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/14629/hos-new-vmax-plateless-bindings

[aupatking]

Mine finally came in last week. Felt incredible, but the lack of tip pressure is going to take a little getting used to. Some discomfort was very likely due to an extra 10+ pounds of wetsuit weight I don't normally carry around. These guys are right though, you can't stick the tip. My dealer setup to current stock fin numbers, but I need to double check them. My Axiom numbers look crazy, and they are different, but not this different. Boot was at 29.75 and wasn't running my average. Feels like a lot of potential. Tip does not rise and carries tremendous speed.

 

[Horton]

Bump

[ALPJr]

Free skied 1st ride of season on Sunday in Mass... Ski feels great!

[Ilivetoski]

Picked up mine today. Walked into the dealership and first thing that the owner said to me was "the pictures just don't do it justice, this is the best looking ski I have ever seen." I have to agree with her, the black copper is a sharp ski. Unfortunately didn't get to ski it today, that will have to wait until Friday, but I did notice that it is very thin starting a few inches beneth the tip of the ski. I remember obrien talking about having about 0.25 in width in one of the elite's a few years back but I cant remember their reasoning behind it. The VTR can't be more than .5 inch thick in the tip

[prettig]

Front foot question on VTR (skiing on it since last year, few passes last year now already a month) ?

 

Background:

- on my Monza (HO double approach bindings) I had the front foot a bit forward (i always had that on all skies)

- The monza was 67" (skied on it for 10 years and at that time 67" was ok)

- The VTR is 66" (better for my weight and my skiing is far more stable)

 

Setup:

- I kept fin at factory (only tested with less angle...... way too much speed at the bouy... this thing is fast... not recommended)

- Used the same bindings (did not want to change to many things at once)

- Put the bindings on the same as on the Monza: so front foot one hole forward (one back would be exactly factory).

- Back foot same as factory (so almost touching if both would be factory setup). Now one hole between them.

 

Question:

- Current setup works fine, BUT feels like the tip is to much into the water (off side ... fast deep turns, but feels like breaking a bit too much....still fast). On side ok.

- If I look at the tip during the turns I see it is riding far more deeper then I am used to with the Monza.

- Want to test Front foot back to factory ... any ideas ? Maybe compensate a bit with the fin or just keep it that way and test.

- The ski feels really neutral/stable. I tried pushing back and front in turns to see what it does.... you can do a turn on the back ! Nothing really strange happens.

 

 

Anyone else tested with bindings positions ?

 

 

p.s. In general.... crazy ski ! (much faster, turns like crazy.... ), so loving it and still a lot to discover.

 

[Horton]

@prettig

 

First of all it is not your Monza. It was a great ski in it's day but that day is long past. It is also time for new thinking.

 

I strongly suggest that you set your fin and bindings exactly to factory spec. Maybe part of why the ski feels so fast is that with your bindings forward you are losing direction off the second wake. A shallow path to the ball makes everything "feel" fast. A truly fast ski will generally "feel" slow.

[savaiusini]

The purpose of this post isn't to ruffle any feathers, although I guess it could...

 

I know this is straightforward to many folks on this forum, but one thing I hear over and over when speaking with customers or reading between the lines on BOS is that there are still many folks out there who rely on the holes of their binding plate to determine front boot position. Either they think the center hole on the plate must be the factory position, or they think that since their last ski worked well at a particular boot position, their new ski will act the same.

 

This is not a good way to set up your ski. If this you, please take a minute and measure your boot position with a tape measure to ensure you are at least close to "factory". Boot position is easily the most important setting on a slalom ski!

 

Similarly, we at HO, along with many other manufacturers are simply not able to take calipers to the fin of every ski we ship. It's just not practical or efficient for the volume of slalom skis we produce. Instead, we use a jig to quickly position the fin and tighten everything down. The jig is set based on a fin that was actually set up with a caliper. This gets the ski "pretty close", but certainly not exactly "Factory". Now, I know some brands may claim to set their skis up with calipers, and that's cool. Also, depending on who you buy your skis from, many high end pro shops actually reset skis to manufacturer published numbers. That's even better! But I guess what I'm really trying to express is that "factory settings" means different things to different people. To some, "factory" means you haven't touched the fin since you purchased the ski. If you were to actually measure a fin set up with a jig at the factory, you could find it to be off by as much as 15-20/1000 from published settings. This is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, these might be your magic numbers!

 

With the V-Type R and so many other high end skis out there, published fin numbers are often derived from pro skiers who are running 39' or 41' off. Let's face it; there just aren't many of us who move on a ski like Nate or Will or Rossi. Factory settings may not work for the way you ride a ski. Frequently, people ask me or Dave for new or "better" settings, but in order to make a recommendation, it is very helpful to know where we are starting from. So... I urge anyone who cares about this to invest a little time and effort to getting to know their ski a little better.

[Horton]

@savaiusini Amen brother. Amen! Good points all.

[gregy]

To add to the above about boot placement. I have found this especially true when using bindings and skis from different manufactures. Even though the hole pattern on the skis are somewhat standardized, the placement of the boots on the plates in relation to the mounting holes can vary widely. I've ended up with bindings all the way back or forward on skis and almost couldn't get to factory recommend position.

[Horton]

When I ask a skier where their bindings are and they reply "Middle Hole" I have a whole different conversation with them than if they tell me inches and fractions of inches. No offence to the less technical skiers but if you want to know why your ski does what it does you need to measure.

[prettig]

@savaiusini ....... THX FOR THE INFO ! (btw .... great ski)

 

Just to clarify:

Factory for me is measure and setup as published (and yes out-off-the-box FIN was a little off).

 

Did a few more sets .....still with ONLY the front binding ONE hole forward from factory and so far great (angle, speed, control, turns). So this setup works for me.

 

Next week I will try factory for the front foot (one hole back is exactly factory... I did measure it). Back foot I will not change.

 

p.s. My plate only allows me to move by hole......any ideas on how to move 1/2 hole or slide a bit (in a way it still keeps the position locked) ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

@prettig 1/2 hole? You need Mikro-Just

[Horton]

@savaiusini I would be pretty happy if you copied your above post and make a whole new thread. This topic drives me nuts. Really high end skiers all know this stuff but a huge % of the Ballers think middle hold is always stock. : (

[keithh2oskier]

@savaiusini or @Horton, can you provide the proper (or "standard") way to measure front boot placement?

 

Would it be from the tail to the outside heel of the front boot or where your actual heel sits on the ski?

[savaiusini]

@keithh2oskier Now we head down the rabbit hole... Ask ten people, get ten answers.

The way to measure boot placement is to remove your rear boot or toe plate so there are no obstructions between the front boot and the tail of the ski. Once the rear boot is removed, extend the tape measure so the tip of the tape just touches the BACK of the rear boot and measure down the centerline. Every boot is shaped different and some manufacturers will tell you specifically where they place the end of the tape on the boot, but "generally" for hardshells I measure from the lowest and most outboard point on the boot (obviously excluding the heel platform). Most soft textile boots are stitched to a base or frame just above the plate. We refer to this as the bottom stitch. Generally, you'll want to measure from the bottom stitch. If your plate has fixed holes, get as close as you can.

 

I've seen lots of people measure along the edge of the ski rather than taking the rear boot off and measuring down the centerline of the ski. Measuring along the edge will yield a slightly longer measurement.

 

No matter how you measure, I think the most important thing is to be consistent with how you measure. At least if you measure the wrong way every time, you'll still know what your relative adjustments are.

[keithh2oskier]

@savaiusini Thanks for the insight. This is what I did when I went to hardshell last summer (kept the same rear boot). Looking to upgrade to a newer ski this year probably so this is all good info.

[OKSkier]

Great discussion.

Another interesting discussion is the DFT measurement. The pic of the DFT in the @aupatking pic is totally off to what most people would measure DFT. ie there is a great you tube video with Andy showing how to measure DFT with the edge of the caliper touching the curved edge of the back ?bottom of the ski - which I thought was the way.

THe above pic is measuring from the top rear of the ski.

[prettig]

@Horton ..... micro-just.. thx (never seen it before......but europe does not have all the stuff you guys have on the market).

 

DFT:

I always measure from the bottom (curved edge) and never the top..... for me this is logical because that's is the end of the ski (the bottom).

The factory setup out-of-the-box was exactly as published (measured from the bottom).

So i guess this is how HO measures it.

 

[ALPJr]

All good stuff about set up. Now a little more on the ski... I read somewhere the ski described as another world. I would describe it a better world. To me it feels like a natural progression from my previous 4 HO's with improved stability, turns, zip across course, and being overall easier on the body. If the weather cooperates, today will be my third ride of the season.

[aupatking]

@OKSkier I always have to measure with a caliper, then the Axiom. It gives me a solid baseline of what the measurement tools difference is. The Axiom just gives me more consistent numbers and allows me to watch my numbers change, while I adjust it. Almost didn't want to answer. Looking forward to another "off topic", which the last post was not.

[ALPJr]

This weekend I skied the first two sets in the course for the season after a couple free skis back in April. When I finished my first set and my buddy asked how I liked it - best I could say was it's easier to ski and I'm surprised how strong I felt. Impacted all phases - balance/set up, pull out/turn in, angle through the wake, turns, hook up and acceleration. Still early, water 57 air 60, and keeping it at -15 and -22 back to backs. Really looking forward to warmer weather, shortening up the line and dialing this ski in.

[Ilivetoski]

I have been having one heck of a time figuring out settings on this ski. Started everything at factory, then brought the fin back .006, that helped the onside a little but not quite what I needed. Emailed a guy I know who skis on the VTR and runs 39 and described what I was feeling (couldn't get the ski to turn onside, felt like I was wheeling out of each turn) he said move bindings foraward.. Then I emailed and sent video to @savaiusini and he told me I should move my bindings back quite a bit. This was the best advice I could have got. I put the bindings back to factory tonight, and wow it's like a whole different ski. Before I was having a little bit of an issue with the ski blowing out on 2,4 (offside) and this fixed that completely. Factory boot settings were magic for me

[ALPJr]

@savaiusini got mine set up too. Great feeling ski all around.

[ALPJr]

Upper 80's in New England this weekend. Hoping to get in a few more rides.

[Brodie]

I have been on the R now for about a month and I am really liking it. Smoothest and most consistent HO I have ever been on. I'm on a 68", and I am at factory fin settings, and 30.25" to front boot. I started at 30" (as I normally prefer slightly back from factory), but I was getting too much tip rise coming off the ball. I tried factory (30.125") first and now 30.25" and it really rides nice here.

[ALPJr]

Finally got a few warm weather sets in this weekend. Moved the boots forward 1/8" to 29 7/8" as the water was breaking near the back of my front boot. Definitely helped, breaking by the front of my heal now. Lots of good stuff. On side rocks, cross course is great. Getting some porpoise/hop into and out of off side. Not sure what to do next - boots forward another 1/16 and/or fin tweak?

[savaiusini]

Hi @ALPJr,

You are on a 67", correct? I wouldn't suggest going further than 30.00" The next adjustment I would try is moving the fin back to 0.730 (if I recall correctly, I set your DFT to around 0.755").

 

If you would like to DM me some video, I could make some further recommendations. I'm always happy to help folks get sorted out on their skis.

[ALPJr]

Yes a 67 @savaiusini . It came set at 6.870, 2.495, .785, 8. Front binding is at 29 7/8. No video just yet. Much appreciated!

[ForrestGump]

Due to the ACL surgery that's coming up and the fact that this year is blown for me, my white 67 V-Type R is for sale. It's the one I purchased from HO at the BOS tournament at Aquaplex last fall. Only had a month on it before my first surgery in December and haven't been back on it due to the broken collarbone in April. $900. Or if someone wants a new white 66, I can trade my 67 for it and sell you a new 66 for $900. Regardless I'll just buy the latest ski in spring '17 after I'm all healed.

[Luzz]

@savaiusini @ALPJr loving my 67" atm, tho using some stranger stuff than normal. Give it a go and let me know what you think. This ski is feeling BOMB!!!

29 5/8

6.835

2.518

.745

8

 

The space I am having before the ball on both sides is ridiculous!

[ALPJr]

Thanks @Luzz and @savaiusini . Looking forward to getting back to the pond and trying things out next week. Im thinking my setting is a minor tweak away.

[gginco]

@ALPJr I have a 67" VT-R and also had an issue with porpoise/hop into and out of offside. @savaiusini suggested I reduce dft and add length and it pretty much cured the issue. I'm LFF 190 lbs and went to .730, 6.930, 2.495 29.25. The ski is delivering more and more confidence each time I ride it. It's the best Syndicate ski to date!

[savaiusini]

@gginco Greg, glad to hear the adjustments are doing the trick!